An updated greatest all time LW list?

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Poirier beat Gaethje decisively too.... This wasnt their 1st fight. They are 1-1 and Dustin has the deeper resume... They have a few common opponents and Justin only performed better against Michael Johnson.

They performed very, very similarly against their common opponents. Subbed by Khabib and Charles. Beat Chandler. Split against Eddie and MJ.

 

[Shaddows]

Okay. Let's compare the ranked LW wins. They both beat Gaethje + Poirier, so let's exclude the mutual ones for a second.

Khabib Ranked LW Wins:
RDA - #5
Conor - #1
Barbosa - #4
Johnson - #6
Healy - #10

Charles Ranked LW Wins:
Dariush - #4
Chandler - #4
Tony Ferguson - #3
Kevin Lee - #8

So please, explain to me which super amazing LW win on Charles' resume blows Khabib out of the water so much that we are willing to ignore his 5 losses at LW, including to Khabib's protege lol.

This is not a simple answer like googling and copying names. Context and timing matters

Let me explain:
Conor may be #1, but we both know that's just bullshit. This was a Conor with 2 years "retired" doing coke and playing boxer.
As for Barboza, indeed it was a good win... But wasn't his loss one of 5 in the next 6 fights? Didn't he even move down to FW???
RDA was a great win. maybe his best win (IMHO).

And the fact you feel the need to add Johnson (who was just 1-2 in his last 3 fights and would proceeded to get 5 wins and 11 losses since ???) yes, indeed. Amazing win!
And last Riley (who were winless 5 straight fight), and yet you act like these two could beat anyone in Charles list?

Heck you even "discarding" Gaethje + Poirier is not really fair. Because they were obviously a better version of themselves when they fought Charles (despite their loss to Khabib)!

Let's not forget Charle's side as well.
Dariush was on an 8 fights win streak (and should have been ahead of Islam and fought for the belt, but that's another story).
Chandler was on a 4 fights win streak
TBH I would not even mention Tony or Kevin for the exact point I made for Johnson or Riley, but they are still far better/more dangerous than both.

And like I said, Lentz, Miller, Guida, Felder, Pettis, Lil Heathen or Hioki are better names than those Khabib beat. And also far more numerous as well.

Heck even his losses to guys like Cub Swanson or Frankie Edgar should count for more than wins over unknowns such as those Khabib beat for more than half of his career (before the UFC).
Not taking into perspective those things is just not being accurate.
If you want to build a case, you have to add context. And the above shows how I think.

Mind you, I am NOT trying to change your mind. IMHO Khabib is amazing and could have been GOAT. I never disputed nor denied that.
But look at Cain for example. Up until he took Junior's soul (and about 40 years of his life), IF he could sustain it, IMHO he could have EASILY surpassed Fedor, DC or any other Heavyweight.
But the multiple rematches and then injuries took their tool, and (like Khabib), left the race far too soon.

So like I said, I understand those that THINK he is. I just differ in thinking he COULD HAVE BEEN, but life made him leave the race too soon... unfortunately for us fans (but thinking about it, I don't mind him leaving at the absolute top... much like GSP. Suck as a fan not to see them fighting anymore, but at least you don't get to see them losing to young lions making a name for themselves by beating veterans past their primes...like it happened to Fedor, Silva and many others.

Edit: Sorry for the long response, I hope you take your time to read, for I don't mind chatting with anyone that have different opinion, as long as it is their honest opinion (well, as much as one can muster, since we are all biased one way or another.

 

[Soggust]

I understand it must be difficult to build your case without lying or being dishonest.... but then again, this is not just a simple google answer, is it?
Because Conor may be #1, but we both know that's just bullshit. This was a Conor with 2 years "retired" doing coke and playing boxer.
As for Barboza, indeed it was a good win... But wasn't his loss one of 5 in the next 6 fights? Didn't he even move down to FW???
RDA was a great win. maybe his best win (IMHO).
And the fact you feel the need to add Johnson (who was just 1-2 in his last 3 fights and would proceeded to get 5 wins with 11 losses)??? yes, indeed. Amazing win!
and Riley (who were winless 5 straight fight, but yes, amazing wins...

How am I "lying"? I listed out the ranked wins and where they were when he fought them.

That inherently feels less biased than trying to contextualize them by proposing that Dariush was a killer who was on a 8 fight streak but also ignoring that Pat Healy was on a a 7 fight win streak (coming from Strikeforce) going into the Khabib fight. Or by including a bunch of FW wins in the LW GOAT discussion. Or by pretending that getting elbowed into oblivion by Felder is highlight on the resume.

Heck your dishonesty went even to "discard" Gaethje + Poirier like they were not even better when they fought Charles??

No lol, I'm not giving Olives extra credit simply for fighting them 2 years later. They were all championship level fights between Champion and #1 contender. This isn't a situation where the guy was green coming into the UFC and evolved into something amazing. Gaethje was on a 4 fight streak and Poirier was on a 5 win streak going into the Khabib fight. We are really grasping at straws at this point.

Heck even his losses to guys like Cub Swanson or Frankie Edgar should count for more than wins over more than half of unknowns Khabib beat before the UFC.
Not taking into perspective those things is just being dishonest.
If you want to build a case, you have to add context. And the above shows mine.

We don't include those because those are FWs. We are discussing the LW division. Again, you're being dishonest.

Mind you, I am NOT trying to change your mind. IMHO Khabib is amazing and could have been GOAT. I never disputed nor denied that.
But look at Cain for example. Up until he took Junior's soul (and about 40 years of his life), IF he could sustain it, IMHO he could have EASILY surpassed Fedor, DC or any other Heavyweight.
But the multiple rematches and then injuries took their tool, and (like Khabib), left the race far too soon.

So like I said, I understand those that THINK he is. I just differ in thinking he COULD HAVE BEEN, but life made him leave the race too soon... unfortunately for us fans (but thinking about it, I don't mind him leaving at the absolute top... much like GSP. Suck as a fan not to see them fighting anymore, but at least you don't get to see them losing to young lions making a name for themselves by beating veterans past their primes...like it happened to Fedor, Silva and many others.

Edit: Sorry for the long response, I hope you take your time to read, for I don't mind chatting with anyone that have different opinion, as long as it is their honest opinion (well, as much as one can muster, since we are all biased one way or another.

I totally get and understand this argument, but his level of domination is SO great and SO far above the rest that it's hard for me to get on board with it, in this specific instance. Because I can't imagine any scenario where we extrapolate his career out and he ends up clearly out of the LW GOAT discussion. Like, imagine he fought 10 more times. How many fights do we REALLY think he's losing? Be honest. Even if the answer is a few (reasonable), his resume ends up clearly past everyone else.

I know I come off as an Olives hater, I get it, but I really love him. He's #1 in my heart, but I just don't understand the case people try to make for him over Khabib.

 

[Shaddows]

Is it really a crazy take for the guy to be top 5 when he is 24-1 including a win over the #1 P4P and absolutely ran through the guy you are trying to tell me is the LW GOAT in his prime?

IMHO your is the crazy one.
Besides, your logic is flawed.
After all, he only (arguably) beat the "#1 P4P" after he got the belt, which he got by leapfrogging from unranked to top 5 in 1 fight....
And it's like you do not know or understand he got that simply because Khabib was in his corner.

 

[Soggust]

IMHO your is the crazy one.
Besides, your logic is flawed.
After all, he only (arguably) beat the "#1 P4P" after he got the belt, which he got by leapfrogging from unranked to top 5 in 1 fight....
And it's like you do not know or understand he got that simply because Khabib was in his corner.

What's it matter when he beat them? He beat them lol.

Besides, I thought you were a context guy? You know that the reason Islam shot up the rankings without fighting ranked guys was because they all avoided him since he was a terrible matchup that had no name value and a boring fight style.

That still doesn't mean he wasn't smeshing people and I detailed in an earlier post about why his resume is underrated, imo. I'm less sold on this take currently because I DO think your longevity argument weighs more on a guy like Islam who doesn't have the names or title defenses of Khabib.

But I also think we both know he will be in the discussion at some point.

 

[JKS]

The Lamas fight was at a catch weight......of 155 lbs. So LW lol.

View attachment 995911

Lamas came in at 146 and Charles at 154. It was a fight vs a featherweight fighter and had impact on the FW division. It wasn't declared at LW but catch weight, so I don't see it affecting his LW resume.

 

[Shaddows]

How am I "lying"? I listed out the ranked wins and where they were when he fought them.

That inherently feels less biased than trying to contextualize them by proposing that Dariush was a killer who was on a 8 fight streak but also ignoring that Pat Healy was on a a 7 fight win streak (coming from Strikeforce) going into the Khabib fight. Or by including a bunch of FW wins in the LW GOAT discussion. Or by pretending that getting elbowed into oblivion by Felder is highlight on the resume.



No lol, I'm not giving Olives extra credit simply for fighting them 2 years later. They were all championship level fights between Champion and #1 contender. This isn't a situation where the guy was green coming into the UFC and evolved into something amazing. Gaethje was on a 4 fight streak and Poirier was on a 5 win streak going into the Khabib fight. We are really grasping at straws at this point.



We don't include those because those are FWs. We are discussing the LW division. Again, you're being dishonest.



I totally get and understand this argument, but his level of domination is SO great and SO far above the rest that it's hard for me to get on board with it, in this specific instance. Because I can't imagine any scenario where we extrapolate his career out and he ends up clearly out of the LW GOAT discussion. Like, imagine he fought 10 more times. How many fights do we REALLY think he's losing? Be honest. Even if the answer is a few (reasonable), his resume ends up clearly past everyone else.

I know I come off as an Olives hater, I get it, but I really love him. He's #1 in my heart, but I just don't understand the case people try to make for him over Khabib.

OK, let me start by stating that between when I posted and you answered, I've changed my original post and toned down, because as I started answering, I noticed you were not being "dishonest", but you did not add the missing details, so just listing names can be deceiving.

And I think we do understand each other (although we disagree).
But the point of disagreement... is it really a disagreement?

Let us focus here, if I may.
Here is what you wrote: "imagine he fought 10 more times"...

I will answer later (how many he would lose) but just to be precise, The core of the "Disagreement" is that you are ADDING your imaginary 10 fights.
It matters little if he won all or less. The point is, he didn't fight those extra fights!
Like I noted about Cain. Imagine that Cain that destroyed Junior did not get injured as often? IMHO he could have been GOAT !!
But it didn't happen, so he didn't win any fight over 29 he fought, while Charles is continuing to add to his resume... do you really think CHarles did not run a few laps above Khabib? (meaning too many for Khabib to catch up, because despite being faster, he drove for less time)

SO you see, I do think Khabib would be GOAT. But I am not counting the fights that propels him (to you) as GOAT... make sense?
Were Khabib to fight 10 more fights, I would hope/expect he won them all. I did not see anyone that could put with him pace/relentless wrestling. But he CAN get caught. Anyone can. SO although he would be favorite above all, he could have lost. And logic tells us it would have been the hardest 10 fights, since he will be fighting from then on, just the very top.
So let's say he lost one... how do you know how this would affect him? How can you be sure he would not get more tentative? Take less risks? We saw that happen with a lot of fighters, ‎Renan Barão is a perfect example. Went from a 32 fights win streak until TJ, 2-9 since.
Look, I can tell you that I don't think he would crumble like Renan, but I can't make a statement that nothing would change for him! And how would this affect his next fights?

There are far too many variables, and that's why I try to stick with what we have. Just the fights that happened.

 

[Soggust]

Lamas came in at 146 and Charles at 154. It was a fight vs a featherweight fighter and had impact on the FW division. It wasn't declared at LW but catch weight, so I don't see it affecting his LW resume.

Hey I'll admit - I actually didn't realize/remember/know? that Lamas only weighed in at the minimum in that fight. I do actually think this changes my perspective a bit.

I'll give you technically 4 LW losses. (although he kinda did lose at LW to a FW in a CW fight hahaha)

 

[Soggust]

OK, let me start by stating that between when I posted and you answered, I've changed my original post and toned down, because as I started answering, I noticed you were not being "dishonest", but you did not add the missing details, so just listing names can be deceiving.

And I think we do understand each other (although we disagree).
But the point of disagreement... is it really a disagreement?

Let us focus here, if I may.
Here is what you wrote: "imagine he fought 10 more times"...

I will answer later (how many he would lose) but just to be precise, The core of the "Disagreement" is that you are ADDING your imaginary 10 fights.
It matters little if he won all or less. The point is, he didn't fight those extra fights!
Like I noted about Cain. Imagine that Cain that destroyed Junior did not get injured as often? IMHO he could have been GOAT !!
But it didn't happen, so he didn't win any fight over 29 he fought, while Charles is continuing to add to his resume... do you really think CHarles did not run a few laps above Khabib? (meaning too many for Khabib to catch up, because despite being faster, he drove for less time)

I actually agree with everything you are saying, and I think your take about not extrapolating at all is pretty fair - until the last part.

I am struggling to find what Charles has done at LW that separates him above a guy who never lost, has more title defenses and was more dominant to the eye test. I still think he's behind currently, so no I do not think Charles has run any laps above Khabib.

But I will concede that I do think Oliveira is within theoretical striking distance, in my mind. Meaning, let's say he beats Islam twice (bc will be 1-1 after first win) and maybe defends the belt 1-2 more times - yeah, I think I'd have a very different perspective. I think Islam is also within theoretical striking distance, but I think both are still 4-5 fights realistically from being clearly ahead of Khabib.

 

[Shaddows]

What's it matter when he beat them? He beat them lol.

Besides, I thought you were a context guy? You know that the reason Islam shot up the rankings without fighting ranked guys was because they all avoided him since he was a terrible matchup that had no name value and a boring fight style.

That still doesn't mean he wasn't smeshing people and I detailed in an earlier post about why his resume is underrated, imo. I'm less sold on this take currently because I DO think your longevity argument weighs more on a guy like Islam who doesn't have the names or title defenses of Khabib.

But I also think we both know he will be in the discussion at some point.

Are you really gonna lie and claim no one thought Volk won??? Because I recall even here at Sherdog there were many threads about it.
And yes, Islam definitely CAN BE ADDED to the conversation, as he continues to win... but he is far behind (yet)...
And yes, he was "smeshing"... but seriously, don't you think that Charles would dominate unranked guys as well?
I understand it is "unfair", and I am not putting any blame on him. But that does not change reality that no one EVER jumped in rankings like that with one win only... wait, I lie... Conor did the same!... but Conor???
Being in the same category as Conor CLEARLY should show you that money (*read greed) is the reason he went up, not his talent. And by that, I hope you know I don't mean he lacked talent, but that that did not truly played a part (well, it did, since he was smeshing, but again, unranked smashing unranked should not equal top ranked).
Him being in Khabib's team did. (Again, not his fault, but life is what it is).

 

[cws80us]

The first list is a joke. Charles at 2 and Poirier at 3? Too much recency bias.

 

[Soggust]

Are you really gonna lie and claim no one thought Volk won??? Because I recall even here at Sherdog there were many threads about it.

lol wut? I never claimed that at all. What are you talking about?

I literally just said Islam has a win over the #1 P4P on his resume, which is again true. The fact that it was close doesn't mean it wasn't a legit win wtf.

And yes, Islam definitely CAN BE ADDED to the conversation, as he continues to win... but he is far behind (yet)...
And yes, he was "smeshing"... but seriously, don't you think that Charles would dominate unranked guys as well?
I understand it is "unfair", and I am not putting any blame on him. But that does not change reality that no one EVER jumped in rankings like that with one win only... wait, I lie... Conor did the same!... but Conor???
Being in the same category as Conor CLEARLY should show you that money (*read greed) is the reason he went up, not his talent. And by that, I hope you know I don't mean he lacked talent, but that that did not truly played a part. Him being in Khabib's team did. (Again, not his fault, but life is what it is).

Again I disagree but I think this is fair and I don't really care to die on the Islam hill. I also think we are close to agreement that he could be in the discussion in the foreseeable future.

 

[Shaddows]

I actually agree with everything you are saying, and I think your take about not extrapolating at all is pretty fair - until the last part.

I am struggling to find what Charles has done at LW that separates him above a guy who never lost, has more title defenses and was more dominant to the eye test. I still think he's behind currently, so no I do not think Charles has run any laps above Khabib.

But I will concede that I do think Oliveira is within theoretical striking distance, in my mind. Meaning, let's say he beats Islam twice (bc will be 1-1 after first win) and maybe defends the belt 1-2 more times - yeah, I think I'd have a very different perspective. I think Islam is also within theoretical striking distance, but I think both are still 4-5 fights realistically from being clearly ahead of Khabib.

Yeah, I think you not counting other divisions is what makes his LW career be what it became.
But I can't simply not count. Every fight you learn. Every fight, against top opponents, you win a lot more. Win or lose (relax, I am not taking Cruz's point that not losing is a negative)
But I do think his wins should count. Even at a different WC (as long as it is not most of his career).
I think I will have to ponder more on that question, for it (obviously) may make the difference. I guess I'll have to get back to you on that!

 

[linvillegorge]

Khabib
BJ
Edgar
Oliveira
Islam

That's my top 5. Conor is way down the list IMO. Yeah, he's a former champ but at the end of the day he's 1-3 at LW. Now granted it's against all elite fighters but 1-3 is still 1-3.

 

[JKS]

Thanks. If you take the combined records of Justin, Conor (don't count him twice), Chandler, Max, Hooker, Eddie and Pettis in the 2 years before and 2 years after their fight with Dustin (I went back 4 years for Chandler/Conor since their fights were more recent):

Chandler: 4-4
Max: 6-3
Hooker: 7-5
Justin: 7-3
Conor: 1-3
Eddie: 4-2-1
Pettis: 4-7
= 33-26-1 = 55% winning percentage for his opponents in the 2 years preceding and 2 years following fighting Dustin to a loss.

You know what the funny thing is......if you take any top fighter and do this with their resume you're gonna get the same winning percentage or even worse for everyone. What you're doing is spinning around this argument in your favor and trying to discredit Dustins resume and prove a point. But you're ignoring the fact that it's a characteristic of every fighter and just the sport in general. When you have top 10 guys facing top 10 all time, pretty much 90% of the time they have a 50% winning percentage. And its even more higher for guys like Dustin who are consistent top 5 and not champions. Champs at the least catch opponents on high winning streaks.

Like lets take a look....(excluding the actual fighter vs the fighter in question). I'll do a champion and a contender like Dustin.

Khabib

Justin 5-1
Dustin 6-0
Conor 3-3
Iaquinta 2-2
Barbosa 4-5
Johnson 3-4

23-15 (60%)

Covington

Masvidal 0-3
Usman 3-2
Woodley 1-3
Lawler 2-3
RDA 4-5
Maia 6-2

16-18 (47%)

It's pretty much the same for very champion and top fighter. There is no one fighters that has a resume where all his opponents have great records before and after their fight.

 

[Soggust]

Yeah, I think you not counting other divisions is what makes his LW career be what it became.
But I can't simply not count. Every fight you learn. Every fight, against top opponents, you win a lot more. Win or lose (relax, I am not taking Cruz's point that not losing is a negative)
But I do think his wins should count. Even at a different WC (as long as it is not most of his career).
I think I will have to ponder more on that question, for it (obviously) may make the difference. I guess I'll have to get back to you on that!

I'm not opposed to adding them, but if we do -> would we also count his 10 losses including the FW ones as well? Because 10 losses feels significant compared to a guy with 0. I'm not a "omgz 0" guy and I'm cool ignoring losses, but 10 feels like a whole careers worth of losses to ignore lol.

And if the argument is "we don't count losses whatsoever", then I start asking what separates Oliveira over BJ Penn? Especially if we are considering the context of performance in losses outside the division.

It's hard for me to get there on Charles

 

[JKS]

Hey I'll admit - I actually didn't realize/remember/know? that Lamas only weighed in at the minimum in that fight. I do actually think this changes my perspective a bit.

I'll give you technically 4 LW losses. (although he kinda did lose at LW to a FW in a CW fight hahaha)

Either way, even if you do count it as a LW loss, 24-5 is still pretty solid record. I don't consider him higher than Khabib, but I think he's #2.

 

[Shaddows]

lol wut? I never claimed that at all. What are you talking about?

I literally just said Islam has a win over the #1 P4P on his resume, which is again true. The fact that it was close doesn't mean it wasn't a legit win wtf.

Fuck, we have too many interlocked conversations, and I can't find it.
My answer to you about Volk was because I noted the fight was contested by many, which it was. I recall MANY fans in the arena and watching on TV also did so. The threads here were many.

To me, this akin to claiming Silva got a W over Sonnen (first fight, obviously), but ignoring how he lost throughout the 5 rounds, and talk like there was nothing going wrong for him).

 

[Soggust]

Fuck, we have too many interlocked conversations, and I can't find it.
My answer to you about Volk was because I noted the fight was contested by many, which it was. I recall MANY fans in the arena and watching on TV also did so. The threads here were many.

To me, this akin to claiming Silva got a W over Sonnen (first fight, obviously), but ignoring how he lost throughout the 5 rounds, and talk like there was nothing going wrong for him).

Is that really much different than Charles getting floored in like every fight and coming back to win the fight? I think a win is a win, right?

Because if how they win matters, then certainly in our Khabib discussion the level of danger Charles was in weighs more negatively than Khabib's relatively damage-free career?

 

[Shaddows]

I'm not opposed to adding them, but if we do -> would we also count his 10 losses including the FW ones as well? Because 10 losses feels significant compared to a guy with 0. I'm not a "omgz 0" guy and I'm cool ignoring losses, but 10 feels like a whole careers worth of losses to ignore lol.

And if the argument is "we don't count losses whatsoever", then I start asking what separates Oliveira over BJ Penn? Especially if we are considering the context of performance in losses outside the division.

It's hard for me to get there on Charles

Jesus, bud!
You are giving me homework (I am loving it!!!).
Yes, I recall how BJ was the fucking man. IMO his loss to Machida (at HW) should count as 3 wins for the balls alone!!!!!
I will have to recall BJ's wins, because I have not done for a while, and I think you may have a point (not counting losses).
But yeah, the losses are many.... though I just shrug it to the style he fights. He goes for broke, and sometimes it pays, sometimes it does not.

IMHO taking risks is noble, though obviously makes it harder to climb when you are also losing. I recall clearly the comments towards GSP (post Serra). I don't take it out much from a loss... on a loss you learn valuable lessons, some that forces you to improve (See Max post Conor).

That's why I can't really punish someone for having an exciting style... that's what the UFC wants and pushes for.