All Time GOAT poll

[HavokHarmon]

Well, we believe Hackney and Tank are the reason for the rule change - we don't know they were the reason. We believe it because they did something, and then the rules were changed to prevent it from happening again.
Just like with Jon. The catalyst was Jon admitting he was doing it on purpose. The thing is, as you say yourself - accidents happen. But when one of the biggest stars in the sport admits he is doing it on purpose, that will make people pay attention.


I would say there is just as good a reason to believe Hackney and Tank were the reason for rule changes, as there is to believe Jon were the reason for the rule change. We have no "proof" of either. At the same time, we all know why the rules were changed.

I am not sure - are you a Jon fan defending Jon, or do you simply not believe Jon was the reason for the rule change?

We believe it because the timeline suggests it. Here that is not the case, ergo it is a false equivalency to equate the two.

I read the interview that I believe you’re talking about. He doesn’t say that, but I’m open to the possibility that I’m looking at the wrong interview so link what you’re thinking of. Even that would would be tenuous and the timeline would still be crappy but it would at least be SOMETHING.

 

[Aurelian]

They all cheat is as farcical as none of them cheat.

I don't think everyone cheats. I think mostly all the GOATs have probably cheated. It's abnormal to go on 10 fight streak title defenses. I understand that when millions of dollars is on the line people might not act what a person thinks as honorably. People cheat at fucking board games much less when your whole career is at stake.

Like I said, I don't care whether they use PEDS or not.

 

[HavokHarmon]

It was a multi year issue that multiple fighters complained to the UFC about lol.
It wasn't even an "open secret", it was just a fact that Jon Jones was using the lack of point deductions and the lack of a rule against his fingers being straight out like a rake in people corneas lol. That's a well documented fact.

In a post-fight interview with Ariel Helwani directly after UFC 172, company president Dana White was asked about Jones' eye pokes. The champion would use his reach and lean in with his lead arm, putting his entire hand in his opponent's face. In doing so, it allowed Jones' fingers to smear through the eyes on several occasions.

White wasn't too please with the rangy technique:



Why did it take so long for the gloves? Because the UFC is a corporation that wants to own the patent and design outright of visible in ring combat gear. The initial gloves the UFC developed were manufactured by Juana Gloves. The design was based on Harbinger heavy bag gloves with the thumb sleeve and top knuckles cut off. The Harbinger gloves were based on older Kempo gloves like the ones you see Bruce Lee using here.


Better MMA gloves are around, and have been around far before 2017. The issue is that the UFC didn't own them outright, so they didn't want to use them. Simple as. PRIDE had better gloves. Trevor Whittman made better gloves.

I agree that Jones took advantage of the lack of point deductions for eye pokes over the years, and I do get that the UFC is a corporation so major changes can be slow, but the problem is that if you throw out the timeline then you really have nothing to connect it outside of “Jones eye pokes, they made gloves” Which isn’t a terrible argument in theory but it ignores the fact that you could use that same argument to connect the new gloves to ANYONE who had a history of doing that.

I’m not trying to downplay how much Jones did it, I got into an argument on here not too long ago with someone who said DC was the biggest offender in history. I just don’t think the timeline is there to connect the glove change to Jones in the same way we can directly connect other rule changes to individual fights/fighrers.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

I agree that Jones took advantage of the lack of point deductions for eye pokes over the years, and I do get that the UFC is a corporation so major changes can be slow, but the problem is that if you throw out the timeline then you really have nothing to connect it outside of “Jones eye pokes, they made gloves” Which isn’t a terrible argument in theory but it ignores the fact that you could use that same argument to connect the new gloves to ANYONE who had a history of doing that.

I’m not trying to downplay how much Jones did it, I got into an argument with someone on here not too long ago with someone who said DC was the biggest offender in history. I just don’t think the timeline is there to connect the glove change to Jones in the same way we can directly connect other rule changes to individual fights/fighrers.

The "fingers have to point upward or be in a fist" rule change was directly connected to Jon's intentional eye poking. I gave you a link to Ariel directly asking Dana and Dana directly answering it. The rule went into effect not long after that.
The gloves were to fix the overall problem of accidental eyepokes, and took long to change for the reasons I stated.

 

[HavokHarmon]

The RULE CHANGE was directly connected to Jon's abuse. I gave you a link to Ariel directly asking Dana and Dana directly answering it. The rule went into effect not long after that.
The gloves were to fix the overall problem of eyepokes.

And Danas answer was that they needed to stop eye poking generally, which makes sense.Absent a timeline all you can do is speculate. Sorry.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Honestly, the fingers out to poke and create insane range is worse than all the juicing.

It's symptomatic of his overall problem: he is either a purposeful cheat, or he goes so purposefully out of his way to not stop himself from cheating despite all the warnings and instructions not to, that "neglect" is just frankly off the table and ya may as well still call him a cheater just to save time

 

[icemun]

Its not even close. Those who cry about PEDs either just started watching MMA, are in extraordinary denial or are just children who believe santa will brings toys for them if they arent naughty this year.

Maybe a ps5 with fortnight

 

[Gamer2k4]

Fedor is smaller than Jones and did a similar thing in a higher weight class.

Smaller how? Shorter? Fedor weighed more than Jones ever did when he fought at 205. And besides, calling Fedor a small heavyweight may be true, but it overlooks the fact that the best heavyweights tend to be smaller, not the 295 pound monsters with muscles coming out of their ears. Stipe is around 235. Cormier was at his best at a lower weight before he ballooned up. Werdum was 240. Cain was 240. Couture was 220. Fedor doesn't get extra credit for being a smaller heavyweight because a lower weight isn't a determent at heavyweight.

Plus, "did a similar thing" is simplifying the argument to the point of evading it altogether. If we want to actually compare apples to apples, Jones is undefeated for 15 years with 27 wins and 15 title wins (and counting), while Fedor was undefeated for 9 years with 31 wins and 8 title wins. And after clearing out LHW multiple times over, Jones went up in weight and won the title there, too. He's fought nothing but the best fighters in the world for almost 15 years, and is so dominant that people call a close fight a win for the other guy, simply because Jones looked almost human and didn't 50-44 him.

Fedor was incredible, and the GOAT for a very long time. But in terms of resume and achievement, Jones has since surpassed him.

 

[ChessJitsu]

He's the GOAT if you don't count failed PED tests but most people do. Thread over.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

Absent a timeline all you can do is speculate. Sorry.

August 5th 2016 the "fingers" rule was added to give the ref the ability to take finally a point for extending your fingers towards your opponents face by making it an official foul. Up until then, there was nothing the ref could do until after a fighter was poked.

Extended fingers​

Eye pokes have been a topic of controversy lately. They are fight-ending, career-damaging illegal maneuvers. Under the original rules, referees could do nothing about it until it was too late and the poke was already landed. The new rules empower referees by making it a foul to extend your fingers outward toward an opponent's face, which could lead to an eye poke.

Previously, a referee could tell a fighter to close his or her hand, but the ref had no recourse — a point could not be taken. Now, it can be if a fighter continues to extend fingers in the direction of an opponent's face.

The 2017 Updated rule read as follows:
Fingers outstretched toward an opponent’s face/eyes:
In the standing position, a fighter that moves their arm(s) toward their opponent with an open hand, fingers pointing at the opponent’s face/eyes, will be a foul. Referees are to prevent this dangerous behavior by communicating clearly to fighters. Fighters are directed to close their fists or point their fingers straight up in the air when reaching toward their opponent.

Why do you think they were a topic of controversy? Because everyone was talking about how Jon Jones intentionally sticks his fingers into his opponents eyes. In the 2016 MMA documentary "The Hurt Business", Jon is asked about poking eyes and says this:

“So, Daniel Cormier is saying before the fight that I’ll end up poking him in the eyes at some point. And the reason why he says that is because I do poke people in the eyes. And it’s very illegal, but I do it.

“I react to people trying to punch me in the face, by usually sticking my hand out and pushing their face away – Kind of like you see on TV when the big brother’s holding his little brother, and the little brother can’t hit him, right? ‘Cause his arms isn’t, like, long enough or whatnot. And I do that in real fights. So, like, if someone’s coming at me, I’ll just put my hands on their forehead.

“And a lot of times, they end up missing the punch that was intended for my face. And sometimes, it lands in people’s eyes. And people hate that. They’re like, ‘Jonny, you’re a great, talented fighter. You don’t need to use an illegal tactic to be successful’. I try to tell people it’s not intentional. But now, I’m kind of known for it. And it’s working.”

The reason the MMA world was talking about eyepokes and the extended fingers from 2011 until it was actually changed in 2016 is directly because of Jon Jones, as no other fighter got away with using it more blatantly.

Smaller how? Shorter? Fedor weighed more than Jones ever did when he fought at 205. And besides, calling Fedor a small heavyweight may be true, but it overlooks the fact that the best heavyweights tend to be smaller, not the 295 pound monsters with muscles coming out of their ears.

Jon at HW weighed heavier at 248 than Fedor ever weighed in his career lol.

 

[Mike]

He's the GOAT if you don't count failed PED tests but most people do. Thread over.

It should be that simple but somehow it never is.

 

[kneebartotheface]

I think every fighter (all athletes really) should be on peds (if not already).

So I don't see it having a negative impact at all.

Edit:the eye pokes are bad and the hyperextension of the knee cap kick is worse.

 

[Oddmonster]

We believe it because the timeline suggests it. Here that is not the case, ergo it is a false equivalency to equate the two.

I read the interview that I believe you’re talking about. He doesn’t say that, but I’m open to the possibility that I’m looking at the wrong interview so link what you’re thinking of. Even that would would be tenuous and the timeline would still be crappy but it would at least be SOMETHING.

The timeline suggest that because Tank tried to throw an opponent out the cage, the rules were changed.
The timeline suggest that because of Hackney's nut shots the rules were changed.
The timeline suggest Jones admitted he was eye poking, and the rules were changed (several times).

I really think you are making light of how bad Jon was with the eye pokes. EVERYONE was talking about him and how dirty he was. And yes, it took some time. Eyepokes happen. Accidents happen. But he showed it was no accident when he kept doing it again, and again, and again. Then he admitted he was doing it on purpose -

“So, Daniel Cormier is saying before the fight that I’ll end up poking him in the eyes at some point. And the reason why he says that is because I do poke people in the eyes. And it’s very illegal, but I do it.
"... And sometimes, it lands in people’s eyes. And people hate that. They’re like, ‘Jonny, you’re a great, talented fighter. You don’t need to use an illegal tactic to be successful’. I try to tell people it’s not intentional. But now, I’m kind of known for it. And it’s working.”

And I will agree with Bas - "Appearing on Inside MMA, Rutten claimed that Jones was a calm and methodical fighter who knows exactly what he’s doing every time he steps into the Octagon. There’s no way around the word dirty when a fighter purposely rubs his fingers into the face of an opponent, according to the former UFC heavyweight champ."

 

[ChessJitsu]

It's a divided line between people who think failed PED tests should weigh against him and people who think failed PED tests don't matter.

 

[HavokHarmon]

The timeline suggest that because Tank tried to throw an opponent out the cage, the rules were changed.
The timeline suggest that because of Hackney's nut shots the rules were changed.
The timeline suggest Jones admitted he was eye poking, and the rules were changed (several times).

I really think you are making light of how bad Jon was with the eye pokes. EVERYONE was talking about him and how dirty he was. And yes, it took some time. Eyepokes happen. Accidents happen. But he showed it was no accident when he kept doing it again, and again, and again. Then he admitted he was doing it on purpose -

“So, Daniel Cormier is saying before the fight that I’ll end up poking him in the eyes at some point. And the reason why he says that is because I do poke people in the eyes. And it’s very illegal, but I do it.
"... And sometimes, it lands in people’s eyes. And people hate that. They’re like, ‘Jonny, you’re a great, talented fighter. You don’t need to use an illegal tactic to be successful’. I try to tell people it’s not intentional. But now, I’m kind of known for it. And it’s working.”

And I will agree with Bas - "Appearing on Inside MMA, Rutten claimed that Jones was a calm and methodical fighter who knows exactly what he’s doing every time he steps into the Octagon. There’s no way around the word dirty when a fighter purposely rubs his fingers into the face of an opponent, according to the former UFC heavyweight champ."

The timeline suggests no such thing in Jones’ case. You’re trying to fit a square peg in a round hole here.

If anything by your logic it makes less sense that new gloves were designed because of Jones. You’re asserting that Jones eye poked intentionally, told people that he was doing it on purpose, so they then changed the gloves. But…the gloves don’t prevent intentional eye pokes. They make it harder to do unintentionally. That makes it even more difficult to make the case that he caused the UFC to change the gloves.

 

[HavokHarmon]

August 5th 2016 the "fingers" rule was added to give the ref the ability to take finally a point for extending your fingers towards your opponents face by making it an official foul. Up until then, there was nothing the ref could do until after a fighter was poked.

Extended fingers​

Eye pokes have been a topic of controversy lately. They are fight-ending, career-damaging illegal maneuvers. Under the original rules, referees could do nothing about it until it was too late and the poke was already landed. The new rules empower referees by making it a foul to extend your fingers outward toward an opponent's face, which could lead to an eye poke.

Previously, a referee could tell a fighter to close his or her hand, but the ref had no recourse — a point could not be taken. Now, it can be if a fighter continues to extend fingers in the direction of an opponent's face.

The 2017 Updated rule read as follows:
Fingers outstretched toward an opponent’s face/eyes:
In the standing position, a fighter that moves their arm(s) toward their opponent with an open hand, fingers pointing at the opponent’s face/eyes, will be a foul. Referees are to prevent this dangerous behavior by communicating clearly to fighters. Fighters are directed to close their fists or point their fingers straight up in the air when reaching toward their opponent.

Why do you think they were a topic of controversy? Because everyone was talking about how Jon Jones intentionally sticks his fingers into his opponents eyes. In the 2016 MMA documentary "The Hurt Business", Jon is asked about poking eyes and says this:





The reason the MMA world was talking about eyepokes and the extended fingers from 2011 until it was actually changed in 2016 is directly because of Jon Jones, as no other fighter got away with using it more blatantly.


Jon at HW weighed heavier at 248 than Fedor ever weighed in his career lol.

Ah shit. Ya got me there. I forgot about the extended fingers rule. The other guy has been arguing the glove design change and the timeline for that doesn’t add up. This one does. Kudos.

 

[WhiteMousse]

Who are the 50% who think he didn't cheat lol

 

[RonDante]

At the end of the day, jones fought guys that were on a massive downswing like rampage, who had lost to both Rashad and machida regardless of what the judges have to say, and after losing to jones didn’t win a single round against bader and glover before getting released

Machida the guy who weighed in at less than 205 pounds on multiple occasions, while jones is quoted as saying he weighed
224 against Rashad and 227 against Cormier the first time. Imagine having a 20 pound weight advantage against someone and counting it as some sort of amazing win, lol.

I don’t hate jones. He’s a very smart fighter, but liking someone style isn’t enough to give them the benefit of the doubt


Some people don’t care about massive weight differences, but my opinion is they matter and I don’t count wins like that, such as jan adesanya, gsp penn 2, basically every gastelum middleweight fight, edgar lightweight fights, jones vs machida Belfort and Rashad to an extent


That’s my opinion

 

[Teh Clint]

I'm a Fedor guy, but if someone tells me they believe it's Jones/GSP/Silva, I don't question it, because I believe it's pretty subjective based on the preferences of each fan of the sport.

And I can't use PEDs as a reason to hate... TRT Vitor is possibly my favorite of all time behind Crocop, so that'd make me a massive hypocrite!

 

[nonoob]

You’re asserting that Jones eye poked intentionally

Assert that Pico said he did, and bragged that it worked for him.​