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No... i said you don't have absolute evidence that they didn't.
I believe the Diaz brothers didn't, but that's my personal opinion.
All Time GOAT poll
- Thread starter Tachy
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No... i said you don't have absolute evidence that they didn't.
I believe the Diaz brothers didn't, but that's my personal opinion.
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even their moms don’t have absolute proof or maybe they do…hmmmm
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Jon Jones beat every man put in front of him.
He is one of the GOATs. He just has an asterisk next to it.
He is one of the GOATs. He just has an asterisk next to it.
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That's not how it works Pal. It's the onus of the people who claim something to prove that claim . It's not up to everyone else to show evidence to the contrary of assertions any Dick and Harry pulls out of their asses.
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So why did you pick some specific fighters to prove a point ? Any fighter that never failed a drug test should be in your list.
Also, i'm fine to stand with facts but you're the one doing double standard, because if you only standed by facts, you would know you can't accuse Jon Jones of cheating since he was never proven guilty of anything.
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Huh ?
You understand how logical reasoning works don't you ? I can always bring up specific examples to disprove a general assertion.
For example: someone says , All fighters do PEDS. All I have to do to disprove this theory is to bring up ONE example of a fighter which didn't and that's what I did. And since Khabib never got busted while being under USADA , there is no reason to believe that he was cheating .
So i can bring up one specific example to disprove a generic assertion but the one who claims that something is true about each member of the group MUST provide the evidence. Its called burden of proof.
There are no double standards here . Jon got busted multiple times with illegal substances in his body, and since he was convicted of that his win against Cormier was overturned. So there were consequences based on the premise that something was not legitimate.
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Its arguable that he beat Gustavsson or Reyes and his first fight with Cormier was darn close.
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If we are arguing with official results, all of his drug tests are arguable.
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Sure but you likely chose those names on purpose. So like you said, your point is valid for any fighter that was never caught.
Bob Sapp never failed a drug test and i chose a random example like you
He was never proven guilty of anything, that's the only thing that matters. From the fight you're talking about :
Travis Tygart, CEO of USADA, said in a statement: "The independent arbitrator found that Jon Jones was not intentionally cheating in this case, and while we thought 18 months was the appropriate sanction given the other circumstances of the case, we respect the arbitrator's decision and believe that justice was served. This case is another strong reminder that athletes need to be extremely cautious about the products and supplements they use to ensure they are free of prohibited substances."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Jones#Failed_drug_tests
But you choose to stand with facts only when you want. If you stand by facts, Jon Jones is not a cheater. Deal with it.
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Exactly where i’m at with it, but the GOAT argument is so circular and everyone already has their pick.
Out of the big 4 he’s my least favorite (id go 1. Fedor 2. Gsp 3. Anderson 4. Jones) , but i cannot deny what i see. I truly believe Jones is considerably better than the other 3.
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Everyone cheats in some way at this level. You're naive to think otherwise.
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Apology accepted.
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O
Jones is definitely GOAT and he probably also took PEDs as I believe every other GOAT candidates have as well.
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All of the guys he’s grappling against are on the sauce.
Do any of you actually think that with the amount of money at stake, the country tenuous job security and the added prospect of sustaining traumatic brain injuries, that virtually all of these guys aren’t on something? Get fucking real! And please, dispense with all the honor bullshit. It’s combat…for money. The vast majority of these guys and gals double their purse with a win while a loss potentially buries them on the undercard or throws them into the breadline.
But if we’re going to play that game, Jones fought confirmed roiders like Gusmao, Bonnar, Vitor and Chael, Rampage on TRT, Machida who popped for a “tainted supplement” and coincidentally dropped weight classes, and DC whose suspiciously low pre-fight T levels strongly suggest PED use prior to their first fight. Jones is a fuckup and a dumbass but he’s the best overall fighter that the sport has produced.
Don’t worry though, MMA is basically still in its adolescence and a better representative will come along to grab the GOAT mantle. I can assure you that they will be doing some cheeky stuff under the table but they’ll have better handlers to ensure that you don’t hear about all the sleazy stuff that they do off camera
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A+ post. No notes!
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Agreed.
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You really ate your wheaties today slugger huh
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Many of you guys either don't realize almost all your favorite fighters have used, or you're just full of it.
Gate keeping for PED USE or a positive test is just not deemed as bad to people who understand the sport. We literally started this century with the PRIDE ERA, then the pre USADA era where nearly everyone was using and/or obviously looked like they were using, this includes the TRT ERA where untold amounts of fighters were strait abusing testosterone for a competitive advantage, and nobody gave a shit when Vitor and Hendo were smashing people. Even the younger fans have seen Izzy grow a full-blown tit and not get popped, it's a joke.
There is clear abuse of PED's and we know either the majority of fighters were passing USADA test by micro dosing and/or were previously on drugs at some point or took a mysterious trip out of the country to a USADA free location.
People use the PED argument to prop up their chosen GOAT fighters, but nobody takes it seriously and that's why guys who have popped are still routinely in every conversation. People will shit on Anderson for positive tests, but you won't ever hear them speak about Hendo, Vitor, Chael, and all the other guys he fought who we know either were on PED's or were more than capable of abusing them at some point in their career, as when they were given the opportunity to abuse the system and their opponents they did.
I hold all the GOATS in high regard, and I don't diminish them, but people have to keep it real too. A ton of fighters avoided being popped during the pre-USADA days and they either went cold turkey or adjusted their cycle imo.
Almost no one will say this though, even though we literally had a 5–6-year period where everyone and their mom knew someone like Romero was very suspicious but since he was passing nearly every test no one could do anything about it.
If you took the five greatest fighters of all time (not definitive but slightly subjective)
1. Anderson Silva - Popped
2. Fedor - Fought during the PRIDE ERA, if nothing else it has to be a tiny bit suspicious
3. Jon Jones - Popped
4. GSP - VERY SUSPICOUS
5. MM - Since moving overseas obviously his physique changed, and it looks like more than a 10-15lb weight change. He might not be a cheater per say, but another person who allegedly might not think twice about taking an advantage like most anyone would.
(Obvious bump on stomach)
(DJ in his prime years in the UFC)
If you look at a list of the top 5 or so guys of all time, there is a lot of smoke regarding 80% of the list. Now you could argue that cheating is only when the other guy isn't allowed to use, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But the reality is we know that even the greatest guys will take every single advantage when the opportunity presents itself, so idk how people can be so oblivious when we know the pre-USADA days were a joke. This is why a large portion of the community doesn't disregard Silva or Jones, because the whole sport including most goat candidates are naturally suspicious too.
Even Suga Sean popped, the facts are the majority of high-level guys who become elite either popped, are suspicious, or have connections that put them around PED's in some fashion. To wake up every day and train MMA knowing you're going to fight multiple PED users while being clean, means you're either really brave or really dumb. Especially when the suspicious people routinely make it to the top of the division and get paid. Or they just have the UFC flat out protect them (Conor & Jones).
In a sport where we know the testing wasn't being done correctly, and still isn't to this day. Why is it surprising many people don't hold positive test against certain fighters?? We surely can't be dense enough to believe every other GOAT candidate was clean right?? We know there is lots of smoke and accusations, and many times they end up being true (Cody exposed TJ).
Judge fighters based on how they fight, and you can drop them down a peg if it makes you feel better for a positive test, but ultimately in a landscape such as this it shouldn't be an elimination to someone's entire legacy in the sport, that's just dumb because many of these dudes had to beat numerous other PED users to get to where they were lmao.
The issue with Jones is that his accomplishments and resume are so ridiculous it's getting very difficult to knock him down a peg, and still not recognize him as the GOAT. So people have to eliminate him entirely to make a strong argument, because objectively his success in the sport trumps everyone else by a mile when you consider his dominance. I could say Silva was more skilled and a more natural martial artist with 11 consecutive defenses, I could argue Fedor might've beaten him, I could say GSP was a better ambassador for MMA, but the reality is nobody can quite fuck with Jon's resume, it's just absurd.
That's the truth....
Gate keeping for PED USE or a positive test is just not deemed as bad to people who understand the sport. We literally started this century with the PRIDE ERA, then the pre USADA era where nearly everyone was using and/or obviously looked like they were using, this includes the TRT ERA where untold amounts of fighters were strait abusing testosterone for a competitive advantage, and nobody gave a shit when Vitor and Hendo were smashing people. Even the younger fans have seen Izzy grow a full-blown tit and not get popped, it's a joke.
There is clear abuse of PED's and we know either the majority of fighters were passing USADA test by micro dosing and/or were previously on drugs at some point or took a mysterious trip out of the country to a USADA free location.
People use the PED argument to prop up their chosen GOAT fighters, but nobody takes it seriously and that's why guys who have popped are still routinely in every conversation. People will shit on Anderson for positive tests, but you won't ever hear them speak about Hendo, Vitor, Chael, and all the other guys he fought who we know either were on PED's or were more than capable of abusing them at some point in their career, as when they were given the opportunity to abuse the system and their opponents they did.
I hold all the GOATS in high regard, and I don't diminish them, but people have to keep it real too. A ton of fighters avoided being popped during the pre-USADA days and they either went cold turkey or adjusted their cycle imo.
Almost no one will say this though, even though we literally had a 5–6-year period where everyone and their mom knew someone like Romero was very suspicious but since he was passing nearly every test no one could do anything about it.
If you took the five greatest fighters of all time (not definitive but slightly subjective)
1. Anderson Silva - Popped
2. Fedor - Fought during the PRIDE ERA, if nothing else it has to be a tiny bit suspicious
3. Jon Jones - Popped
4. GSP - VERY SUSPICOUS
5. MM - Since moving overseas obviously his physique changed, and it looks like more than a 10-15lb weight change. He might not be a cheater per say, but another person who allegedly might not think twice about taking an advantage like most anyone would.
(Obvious bump on stomach)
(DJ in his prime years in the UFC)
If you look at a list of the top 5 or so guys of all time, there is a lot of smoke regarding 80% of the list. Now you could argue that cheating is only when the other guy isn't allowed to use, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But the reality is we know that even the greatest guys will take every single advantage when the opportunity presents itself, so idk how people can be so oblivious when we know the pre-USADA days were a joke. This is why a large portion of the community doesn't disregard Silva or Jones, because the whole sport including most goat candidates are naturally suspicious too.
Even Suga Sean popped, the facts are the majority of high-level guys who become elite either popped, are suspicious, or have connections that put them around PED's in some fashion. To wake up every day and train MMA knowing you're going to fight multiple PED users while being clean, means you're either really brave or really dumb. Especially when the suspicious people routinely make it to the top of the division and get paid. Or they just have the UFC flat out protect them (Conor & Jones).
In a sport where we know the testing wasn't being done correctly, and still isn't to this day. Why is it surprising many people don't hold positive test against certain fighters?? We surely can't be dense enough to believe every other GOAT candidate was clean right?? We know there is lots of smoke and accusations, and many times they end up being true (Cody exposed TJ).
Judge fighters based on how they fight, and you can drop them down a peg if it makes you feel better for a positive test, but ultimately in a landscape such as this it shouldn't be an elimination to someone's entire legacy in the sport, that's just dumb because many of these dudes had to beat numerous other PED users to get to where they were lmao.
The issue with Jones is that his accomplishments and resume are so ridiculous it's getting very difficult to knock him down a peg, and still not recognize him as the GOAT. So people have to eliminate him entirely to make a strong argument, because objectively his success in the sport trumps everyone else by a mile when you consider his dominance. I could say Silva was more skilled and a more natural martial artist with 11 consecutive defenses, I could argue Fedor might've beaten him, I could say GSP was a better ambassador for MMA, but the reality is nobody can quite fuck with Jon's resume, it's just absurd.
That's the truth....
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