All Time GOAT poll

i mean, i'm just looking at jone's record on wikipedia is all. you can't find anyone on that list comparable to chad mendes and frankie edgar?
In terms of overall skill?
No, not even DC (aside from his wrestling) and i rate DC extremely high.

Frankie Edgar and Mendes are both great wrestlers, but also possess legit boxing skills.
The difference in overall technique between these two and guys like Rampage are enormous.
Evans - though no Edgar oder Mendes - was pretty good technically and actually knew how to use wrestling to set up his striking and vice-versa (instead of just being a wrestler with heavy hands), but Evans is also a naturally much smaller man than Jones. There are pictures where he's besides Usman and they're basically the same size.
 
If you'd specify what you don't agree with, i could respond better.

Probably the bit about Aldo facing better opposition than Jones. You went ahead and supported that contention with, presumably, your strongest evidence in Aldo's wins over Mendes and Frankie.

So, either way, it comes down to your saying Mendes and Frankie are better wins for Aldo than anyone Jones has beaten.

I wouldn't agree with that. Jones's wins over Cormier are pretty hard to argue with.
 
I woud say Khabib.29-0 speaks for its self. Jon is undefeated aswell (lol at the Hamill DQ loss) but he has so much physical advantage to his oponents witch Khabib does not. So its Khallabeeb for me
Also not one Connor nuthuger in the replys im shocked
 
Probably the bit about Aldo facing better opposition than Jones. You went ahead and supported that contention with, presumably, your strongest evidence in Aldo's wins over Mendes and Frankie.

So, either way, it comes down to your saying Mendes and Frankie are better wins for Aldo than anyone Jones has beaten.

I wouldn't agree with that. Jones's wins over Cormier are pretty hard to argue with.
Oh that... yeah, makes sense that he meant that, true.

Well, only a single one of those wins is actually legit (due to Jones testing positive for the second fight) and that's being purposely naive in my eyes, as i find it highly unlikely that Jones only started using PEDs for UFC 217.

That aside - and i do rate Cormier highly and am a huge fan of him! - i just don't agree that he's as good of a *win* as Mendes and Edgar.
Look for example at the footwork and cage-cutting of those guys and compare it with Cormier's, or look at their boxing (though Cormier is offensively a good boxer), particularly from a defensive standpoint and compare it with Cormier's.
Like i said, i really like Cormier, but in these comparisons he's clearly not on Edgar's and Mendes' level.
The difference in skill between 205 and divisions like 135 to 155 is glaring, if you ask me.

Now regardless of how clickbaity the title is, the following video does a good job on illustrating the difference's between some 205ers Jones faced and some elite 135ers:
 
One other thing for GSP that i forgot in my op but maybe pushed him over the edge

GSP beat the greatest variety of fighters I have ever seen. even more than Jones.

he beat the great wrestler in hughes and fitch
the great wrestler/power punchers in kos and hendricks
the great all time talent in bj
the great kickboxer in condit
the great muy thai guy in alves
the great pressure fighter in diaz
the great jits guy in jake
the great judo guy in karo
etc
 
Semi long read but let me know if you agree


Case Against: Steroids. Pretty much it. And since he is so high profile he might have access to high level roids no one else does.
.
Exactly. Them NFL steroids give him an unfair advantage over the other cheaters. GOAT status? Disqualified.
 
This is a popular opinion, but not actually true.

Aldo has faced and beaten much better fighters.
Frankie and Mendes for example, are significantly better fighters than anyone Jon Jones has ever faced.

DC is as good a win. Without Jones, who presumably was on vitamins, DC ends up the 205 GOAT. Jones does have some very faded legends on his ledger though.

That said, Aldo never popped.
 
This is a popular opinion, but not actually true.

Aldo has faced and beaten much better fighters.
Frankie and Mendes for example, are significantly better fighters than anyone Jon Jones has ever faced.
Loses count as well ....
 
Jones is clearly the best .....lmao at people still claiming GSP was clean
 
IMHO it's GSP or Fedor. I just can't put Jones and Silva as the GOAT with the PED infractions. Khabib is the most dominant fighter of all time, but far from the most accomplished.
 
Oh that... yeah, makes sense that he meant that, true.

Well, only a single one of those wins is actually legit (due to Jones testing positive for the second fight) and that's being purposely naive in my eyes, as i find it highly unlikely that Jones only started using PEDs for UFC 217.

That aside - and i do rate Cormier highly and am a huge fan of him! - i just don't agree that he's as good of a *win* as Mendes and Edgar.
Look for example at the footwork and cage-cutting of those guys and compare it with Cormier's, or look at their boxing (though Cormier is offensively a good boxer), particularly from a defensive standpoint and compare it with Cormier's.
Like i said, i really like Cormier, but in these comparisons he's clearly not on Edgar's and Mendes' level.
The difference in skill between 205 and divisions like 135 to 155 is glaring, if you ask me.

I suppose this cuts to the heart of the GOAT debate, but I disagree with your assesment of Frankie/Mendes over Cormier. I understand the point that those guys are faster and have cleaner footwork and tigher technique, but to me that misses the point. All lighter weight fighters are more skilled than the weightclass above them, generally speaking. To compare fighters' resumes across weight classes we need to look at the relative strength of their opposition, not boil the opposition down to objectively-comparable technical skillsets.

A shorthand way of comparing strength of opposition across weightclasses is to use the rankings at the time of the fight. This is imperfect because rankings get manipulated for ulterior reasons all the time, but it's a start. After that we have to somehow try and compare the relative strengths of the weightclasses, or at least the top ten, say, of those weightclasses. In this case, featherweight and light heavyweight, we have to come up with a shorthand assessment of how deep those weightclasses are compared to one another - here, again, I don't think measuring technical skill level is an effective method - of course the lighter fighters are going to be faster and more technically sound, that doesn't mean that those weightclasses are necessarily deeper.

The average weight of American males is about 200 lbs. This is roughly in the middle of 145 and 200 when you consider pre-weight-cut weights. We should conclude then there are roughly equal numbers of potential athletes in FW and in LHW. This, I would argue is evidence the weight classes are roughly equally deep. Further to this point, consider the lightest weight classes where we see extreme levels of athleticism and technical skill despite a very small percentage of the population being small enough to ever make that weight - technical proficiency is just tied to lighter weights, it doesn't make lighter weightclass fighters better than heavier fighters. It's just a different game. Smaller bodies tend to move more smoothly, reactively and quickly but it's all relative. Objectively, the slowest and fattest heavyweight could crush the best bantamweight - that doesn't prove anything, either.
 
DC is as good a win. Without Jones, who presumably was on vitamins, DC ends up the 205 GOAT. Jones does have some very faded legends on his ledger though.

That said, Aldo never popped.
I rate DC very highly as a fighter and he is a good win, but in terms of footwork and striking defense he doesn't compare to Mendes or Frankie.

If you watch Jones vs DC, you'll notice that DC literally slowly plods towards Jones; he couldn't make it easier for any tall and rangy guy to bombard him with straight shots and kicks, particularly to the body and the knees.

(Compare the footwork and the feints of this clip to that of a fight between guys like Aldo, Edgar and Mendes.)
Keep also in mind, that DC was 35 for their first fight and 38 for their second fight (which as we know, doesn't even count, because Jones tested positive.), because though DC is (apparently) one of those guys who ages slowly, 35 and 38 years of age is at least kinda old, even for MMA standards.
Last but not least, i don't think DC actually was a natural 205er in terms of size - yes, he did struggle with the weight sometimes, but i don't think that's indicative of being a natural sized [division]er - Kelvin Gastelum, who's not much shorter than DC and has the same reach, alongside a pretty similar build, gets tons of shit on here for not being able to make 170, while having the same, if not less fat on him than a light heavyweight DC, yet you never hear people saying that DC clearly isn't really a natural 205er.

Chad Mendes and Frankie Edgar on the other hand - alongside having better technique in many aspects - were natural 145ers.
 
DC is as good a win. Without Jones, who presumably was on vitamins, DC ends up the 205 GOAT. Jones does have some very faded legends on his ledger though.

That said, Aldo never popped.

To me, it's simple. If you don't think popping for PEDs discounts a candidate, Jones is clearly the GOAT. If you do think PED discredits a candidate, then it's clearly GSP
 
I don't think Khabib belongs there.
His longevity is lacking, at least conpared to the real GOAT candidates.
 
First of all, thanks for the crazy detailed response. I appreciate it!
I suppose this cuts to the heart of the GOAT debate, but I disagree with your assesment of Frankie/Mendes over Cormier. I understand the point that those guys are faster and have cleaner footwork and tigher technique, but to me that misses the point. All lighter weight fighters are more skilled than the weightclass above them, generally speaking. To compare fighters' resumes across weight classes we need to look at the relative strength of their opposition, not boil the opposition down to objectively-comparable technical skillsets.
That's where i just disagree, with all due respect.
There's no reason why big guys can't be as technical as small guys (the just can't be as fast!).
A shorthand way of comparing strength of opposition across weightclasses is to use the rankings at the time of the fight. This is imperfect because rankings get manipulated for ulterior reasons all the time, but it's a start. After that we have to somehow try and compare the relative strengths of the weightclasses, or at least the top ten, say, of those weightclasses. In this case, featherweight and light heavyweight, we have to come up with a shorthand assessment of how deep those weightclasses are compared to one another - here, again, I don't think measuring technical skill level is an effective method - of course the lighter fighters are going to be faster and more technically sound, that doesn't mean that those weightclasses are necessarily deeper.
I hate responding with so little to your actually thoughtful arguments, but here i refer to my first point and i'll add, that judging fighters by their skill (technical and tactical) is the only thing that counts - to me at least.
Athletic skills in relation to size play a role too, of course.
(Now before you say it's a double standard that here i "excuse" them not being as strong as the big guys while criticizing the big guys for having worse technique than the smaller guys: size doesn't decrease motor skill and coordination, but size obviously impacts power and speed).
The average weight of American males is about 200 lbs. This is roughly in the middle of 145 and 200 when you consider pre-weight-cut weights. We should conclude then there are roughly equal numbers of potential athletes in FW and in LHW. This, I would argue is evidence the weight classes are roughly equally deep. Further to this point, con
Wait... i don't get your maths!
A UFC 145er is ~160-165 pounds in the cage while having a six pack... i'd say if those guys were unfit, they'd be pretty much "the average american".
An ideal body for 205 however, is being ~225 pounds while actually being lean and that's far from average.

I also think it only makes sense to compare differences in talent pool, when the actual skills between divisions are pretty much equal to the point where it's almost/completely impossible to tell, who's actually more skilled, but this isn't the case if we compare 205 and let's say 145 or so.
 
Loses count as well ....
Of course! And it's because of these losses, that i can't quite put Aldo at the #1 GOAT spot.

But who did Aldo lose to?
Conor, Max, Volkanovski, Yan, Moraes (robbery?), Luciano Azevedo

In which of those fights was Aldo at least close to his prime?
Conor, Max

So let's have a close look at these guys.
Conor - for all the shit he gets - is one of the best counterstrikers the sport has ever seen, has decent defensive wrestling and decent BJJ, plus he's got quite a bit of size on Aldo.

Max is a phenomenal striker himself and is known to have both insane cardio as well as incredible durability - on top of being a great anti-wrestler with very good BJJ. Size-wise, Max is the same size/slightly bigger than a prime, 145er Jose Aldo.

Now which guys has Jon Jones at the end of his prime faced, that are at least as big, if not quite a bit bigger than him (while having an athletic body and not being kinda chubby, or even fat) that come close in terms of skill to a prime Conor McGregor (who - again - also had a good bit of size on Aldo) or a prime Max Holloway?
Because i think the answer to that question is a pretty clear "no one".
I think we're in agreement that Aldo was not in his prime anymore when he faced Yan, but even if he was, Yan is much more skilled than anyone Jon Jones has faced who matched him in terms of size.
 
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