Aleksander Kralin Vs. Masahiko Kimura

[Kforcer]

Yes I do.

No, you don't. He competed under Greco-Roman rules, where any attacks below the waist were banned, be they doubles, singles, trips or anything which attacked any part of the body beneath the waist. You have no clue whatsoever how he would deal with those sorts of attacks.

And for what it is worth, Bruce Baumgartner challenged Karelin to a mixed-rules wrestling match, combining freestyle and Greco rules. Karelin turned him down. Not that it proves anything, but apparently he wasn't interested in competing outside of the Greco-Roman arena.

 

[Judochopatemi]

"He competed under Greco-Roman rules, where any attacks below the waist were banned,"

I'm familiar with Greco Roman Do you think a Greco Roman wrestler never in his life did a sprawl?

However, from time to time Cox trains with the Greco team.

“They teach me a lot of things that can transfer over back to freestyle and vice versa,” he said.


At the end of the day, it all comes back to one thing – wrestling.

“Once you are engaged with your opponent, wrestling is wrestling,” said Coon. “I’d like more people to try Greco or try freestyle because you’ll become a better wrestler because of it. There are so many different lessons you can learn from each one.”

 

[Judochopatemi]

This does not sound like a staged fight





Karelin’s story about his one and only MMA fight

Karelin is the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler ever lived, a three-time Olympic gold medalist known for his ungodly strength and skill. According to Joe Rogan, a popular UFC commentator, “Karelin could lift 300-pound elite wrestlers like pillows”. Even today, at 52, he’s looking fit and as intimidating as in his prime.

In his most recent interview on Russian TV, Karelin shared some intriguing details on his one and only MMA fight against a legendary karate master, Akira Maeda. This epic fight took place in Japan, Yokohama Arena, in 1999. At that time, the Japanese were in awe not only for his stellar wrestling career but also for especially freakish size and looks.

It all started when Karelin arrived in Japan to support his teammates as a “billboard”, as he describes himself. Perhaps due to language barriers, Karelin ended up in the “fight call out” press conference where Maeda was trying to trash-talk Karelin to hype up the fight. However, Karelin was reluctant to take the MMA fight seriously since he was preparing for an important wrestling championship in Russia. Maeda, however, spent six months training in the US with elite wrestlers and even made a 5-hour documentary — Karelin actually watched it all out of curiosity.

Due to unforeseen circumstances, the wrestling championship in Russia was postponed, and it opened up a window for the fight in Japan. Karelin chose to fight without gloves in his usual wrestling gear. He was amused to see reporters nearly “dying” from the toxic odor emanating from it as he forgot to wash it the night before.

During the fight, Karelin shared that Maeda low-kicked him a couple of times which were unexpectedly painful. In a split-second, he decided to change the gameplan to make sure Maeda feels the same pain as quickly as possible. As he was contemplating this plan, he saw a high kick flying directly to his head, and to this day he remembers size “47” (11.5 US) printed on Maeda’s shoe. Out of fear, the great Karelin closed the distance and clutched Maeda’s head. He vividly recalls how Maeda’s stomach growled in Karelin’s tight choke until the fight was ultimately stopped proclaiming Karelin’s dominant victory…

 

[Kforcer]

"He competed under Greco-Roman rules, where any attacks below the waist were banned,"

I'm familiar with Greco Roman Do you think a Greco Roman wrestler never in his life did a sprawl?

However, from time to time Cox trains with the Greco team.

“They teach me a lot of things that can transfer over back to freestyle and vice versa,” he said.


At the end of the day, it all comes back to one thing – wrestling.

“Once you are engaged with your opponent, wrestling is wrestling,” said Coon. “I’d like more people to try Greco or try freestyle because you’ll become a better wrestler because of it. There are so many different lessons you can learn from each one.”

Every American Greco-Roman wrestler has done freestyle and especially folkstyle extensively. You can't compare that to other countries, which don't have folkstyle wrestling and where wrestlers much more often do either freestyle or Greco-Roman wrestling exclusively. Cox's experience in America, where folkstyle and freestyle not only dominant but part of every top wrestler's foundation, is almost irrelevant to the experience of Karelin, who competed for the greatest Greco-Roman powerhouse in the world.

As far as Karelin's description of his match with Maeda, I don't think he wanted to acknowledge that he participated in a work. And at the time, shoot-style professional wrestling matches were always presented as being shoots. In fact, UWF and the UWFi were hugely popular in Russia, such that a reporter even asked Fedor how he thought he'd fair against Gary Albright, a champion of the UWFi. If Karelin referred to the match as real, he wasn't only doing himself a favor, he was protecting RINGs and shoot-style professional wrestling in general and their participants, which in the case of RINGs, also included a number of Russians. But make no mistake, that was a professional wrestling bout.

 

[Judochopatemi]

"Every American Greco-Roman wrestler has done freestyle and especially folkstyle extensively. You can't compare that to other countries"

He wasn't referring to education.

 

[Kforcer]

"Every American Greco-Roman wrestler has done freestyle and especially folkstyle extensively. You can't compare that to other countries"

He wasn't referring to education.

My point is that it is much more likely for American wrestlers to cross-train, because every high-level American Greco-Roman wrestler came out of scholastic wrestling, which is very similar to freestyle and because even more so, almost every high-level American wrestler was also a freestyle wrestler, often times one who failed to get to the top in freestyle and therefore switched. So of course, not only will their knowledge of freestyle or folkstyle differ from other countries, but the connection between the two programs will be much different as well.

In any event, it is a totally different situation than a country like Russia, where athletes are far, far more likely to specialized in Greco or freestyle exclusively. And you can't use Cox, an American, to prove anything about Karelin's familiarity with freestyle or lack thereof.

 

[Judochopatemi]

"My point is that it is much more likely for American wrestlers to cross-train, because every high-level American Greco-Roman wrestler came out of scholastic wrestling, which is very similar to freestyle and because even more so, almost every high-level American wrestler was also a freestyle wrestler, often times one who failed to get to the top in freestyle and therefore switched. So of course, not only will their knowledge of freestyle or folkstyle differ from other countries, but the connection between the two programs will be much different as well.

In any event, it is a totally different situation than a country like Russia, where athletes are far, far more likely to specialized in Greco or freestyle exclusively. And you can't use Cox, an American, to prove anything about Karelin's familiarity with freestyle or lack thereof."

Judokas are nowhere near as proficient at leg takedowns as wrestlers. He'd have a much tougher time against a freestyler. It's also a Russian bear who outweighs Kimura by a weight class, and is much taller. Wrestlers are hard to take down period, the skill-sets overlap.. If the skill-sets between freestyle and Greco didn't overlap, there wouldn't be a rule that you can only do one as an elite competitor

 

[Judochopatemi]

There was a national Greco Roman Champion who also won the national judo competion back when leg takedowns were allowed, without preperation, who was asked about the strength comparison and said that he's quote "much stronger than anyone of those Judokas guys" .

And Karelin was strong even by wrestling standards....

 

[Grappler111]

My first style was Greco Roman Wrestling. I think that greco help a lot freestyle game. There are "dirty techniques" where legs are used....
In countries like Russia there is a lot of cross training between the two Olympic styles. In beach wrestling competition you can see a lot of battles Greco vs Freestyle and generally Freestyle win.

 

[Judochopatemi]

A Greco Roman wrestler against other grapplers can take liberties that he wouldn't be able to do against fellow competitors, because he is so much stronger in the clinch.

 

[Judochopatemi]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...bility_in_freestyle_and_Greco-Roman_wrestlers

"Greco-Roman wrestlers had a higher lean body mass (6-12%) compared with freestyle wrestlers."

 

[Judochopatemi]

Means what I thought it did:

"Lean body mass is calculated as the difference between total body weight and body fat weight, or more simply, the weight of everything except the fat"

 

[Judochopatemi]

Who would you rather want in your corner?

 

[nefti]

Kimura got wrecked by santana so bad that after experiencing that bbc his guts were messed all up.

Kimura also said that santana was a giant man...


The so called big black man was almost carlson gracies size.

What would a real giant with world class strength/speed and wrestling do to him?

 

[Judochopatemi]

Besides the size differential, it's isn't really fair anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it is within the realm of possibility that there are better Judokas across time than Kimura, right? He's up there but you can probably offer other names.

It is NOT however within the realm of possibility that there is a better Greco Roman grappler, and even compared to freestylers, Karelin has the best record of any wrestler ever. He did not lose a point in 12 years and was 887-2, both loses by a single point, once when he was over the hill.

 

[Judochopatemi]

“I’m also a favorite of drunkards and others who seek to prove their strength by confronting me,” he says. “Of course, I am grateful for my strength. It makes me self-sufficient. When I bought a refrigerator, I carried it myself up the stairs to my apartment on the eighth floor."

/Karelin

 

[Judochopatemi]

Karelin was unbeaten in international competition, a man who had lost only once, as a 19-year-old in the 1987 Soviet championships. A man who gives up a point every decade or so.

“Even though I didn’t think I was going to win, I was going to work as hard as I could,” Gardner said. “If I didn’t win, fine. But if I did, well, it’s just incredible.”

And Karelin lost to a newly introduced penalty letting go off a grip.

 

[Grappler111]

The conclusion..

 

[Kforcer]

There was a national Greco Roman Champion who also won the national judo competion back when leg takedowns were allowed, without preperation, who was asked about the strength comparison and said that he's quote "much stronger than anyone of those Judokas guys" .

And Karelin was strong even by wrestling standards....

That's good for whoever the Greco-Roman athlete was that achieved that, but that is his achievement, not Karelin. That's like saying that Wade Schalles' national sambo championship is evidence that John Smith or Dan Gable could deal well with submissions.

You haven't really said anything to establish that Karelin's abilities outside of Greco-Roman wrestling are purely speculative. Ultimately, you have no idea what would happen between him and Kimura.

 

[Judochopatemi]

That's good for whoever the Greco-Roman athlete was that achieved that, but that is his achievement, not Karelin. That's like saying that Wade Schalles' national sambo championship is evidence that John Smith or Dan Gable could deal well with submissions.

You haven't really said anything to establish that Karelin's abilities outside of Greco-Roman wrestling are purely speculative. Ultimately, you have no idea what would happen between him and Kimura.

He lifts refrigrators as groceries. How does little Kimura even stay on his feet? I guess he can catch Karelin in a triangle but I don't see him pulling of a Kimura on him unless he beats him up first.