Aikido (Steven Seagal) in MMA: Does anyone actually believe it can work in MMA?

[Toxxus]

I've taken a year of aikido in the past and there are a few reasons I don't feel it is well suited to MMA.

1- It's primarily a sword art. A lot of the movements are derived from a sword fighting basis. You can even find very old footage of Morihei Ueshiba doing sword forms. Like most weapon arts with a side order of hand-to-hand (I'm looking at you Escrima) they will not be as good at hand-to-hand as pure hand-to-hand styles.

2- It's saturated with religious and aesthetic beliefs that hinder it from being more martial and less art. Some forms are done because circles are basically cool looking or your arm looks really awesome as a sword-substitute.

3- It's practiced the wrong way for the same reasons. Classes are often akin to church service and most schools do nothing by way of sparring. It's one of the reasons I find the old Steven Seagal footage so cool. He'd have 3 students attack another 1 to see if they could apply their aikido or not. Often, they could not.

All that being said, however, when I was cross-training for sport jujitsu I was in a class where we had people from several different styles and I fought this guy with a really "off" variant of karate. Didn't run into any trouble, but felt threatened the whole time. The guy who fought him next got flipped onto his skull and knocked out cold. Turns out he was an aikido guy and he ko'd a 2nd partner before the night was over.

 

[SirRealKiller]

Catch and Freestyle actually come from a mix of traditional Irish, English, Indian, Iranian Wrestling and Judo.

Greco comes from many styles of Folk Wrestling.

Yes, catch and freestyle became distinct styles in the early UK area and the middle east/India but Roman Style is where they all stemed from as best can be followed. Judo really isn't even part of the wrestling treat at all, that cam from jujitsu, in Japan.

Now, Jujitsu may have some roots in north eastern India but the facts on that are a bit fuzzy.

I have heard that Judo may have roots from Shuai Jiao. An umbrella term for Chinese folk and jacket wrestling. That may have roots from Indian folkstyles.

No, it is much more likely the that it is the other way around. Like I said earlier, pretty much all the the Japanese arts stem from jujitusu. The original jujitsu was basically a combination of grappling (not unlike BJJ), throws(judo) and striking. Basically what happened with jujitsu is it got split up into ground fighting and standing grappling and both were made sports.

I know that in the earliest documented time for MA in the east there were practitioners of different MAs that went back and forth between India,China, Korea and Japan. So, it's pretty hard to say exactly where any given eastern MA actually started and some may have started independantly and developed similar techniques.

So, what I'm saying is just a best guess. Chances are that every martial art has influences from several earlier forms of fighting which may have been influence by MAs from several places.

 

[ithinktheymad]

Yes, catch and freestyle became distinct styles in the early UK area and the middle east/India but Roman Style is where they all stemed from as best can be followed. Judo really isn't even part of the wrestling treat at all, that cam from jujitsu, in Japan.

Now, Jujitsu may have some roots in north eastern India but the facts on that are a bit fuzzy.



No, it is much more likely the that it is the other way around. Like I said earlier, pretty much all the the Japanese arts stem from jujitusu. The original jujitsu was basically a combination of grappling (not unlike BJJ), throws(judo) and striking. Basically what happened with jujitsu is it got split up into ground fighting and standing grappling and both were made sports.

I know that in the earliest documented time for MA in the east there were practitioners of different MAs that went back and forth between India,China, Korea and Japan. So, it's pretty hard to say exactly where any given eastern MA actually started and some may have started independantly and developed similar techniques.

So, what I'm saying is just a best guess. Chances are that every martial art has influences from several earlier forms of fighting which may have been influence by MAs from several places.

Judo is just a school of Jujitsu. The cross pollination of Judo and Catch is well documented.

I don't understand what you mean by Roman style. Are you saying the Roman army brought Wrestling to regions it captured?

I agree that these have all influenced each other though.

 

[ToetotheFace]

It was I believe it was originally designed for Samurai's, where wrist control really could make the difference between winning and losing, which at that time meant life/death.

 

[bad_k]

It Japan's form of jacket Wrestling. A fireman's carry is used in many styles including Judo. Martial arts teach certain attacks and also counters to certain situations and techniques.

I'm no historian but I'd imagine few styles of martial arts probably formed as a direct response to another style in particular so that's a rather moot point. Perhaps Boxing since it is as old as Wrestling but who knows.

You are just talking a lot of hot air. Have you ever been on a mat or even bothered to study martial arts at all?

All of the techniques you named falls under the category of grappling. wrestling is a minor subset of an umbrella under grappling.

Everything I have said in this thread are pure facts, none of it are opinions or a personal viewpoint. You seem to know very little about martial arts.

You really think you can go to a judo class and have them teach you how to throw a spinning back kick? Or how to dodge it if it ever gets thrown at you? You can't ignore all these facts.

Many of the martial arts like BJJ is an evolved form of judo that catered to ground fighting. This does not however mean their discipline was developed through hard counter to boxing, karate or all the other martial arts that existed at the time.

It is simply an evolution to another category under the same branch. It was never created to hard counter any other combat sports.

 

[JDB]

First of all, you're on an MMA forum, so I'd think you must have seen tons of guard pulling in high level fights, and they worked. What I don't understand is if guard pulling worked for high level fights, what makes you think they don't work in a street fight (vs low level opponents), assuming we're talking about 1vs1 fight here?

Second of all, yes, it does work in a street fight:

[YT]HbGHGIM4aSA[/YT]

lol@ streetfight on nice soft grass.

 

[SirRealKiller]

Judo is just a school of Jujitsu. The cross pollination of Judo and Catch is well documented.

I don't understand what you mean by Roman style. Are you saying the Roman army brought Wrestling to regions it captured?

I agree that these have all influenced each other though.

When I say "Roman Style", I mean styles that mainly developed west of the eastern side of the Roman empire. Most every style or wrestling that is common these days developed out of the folk styles of wrestling as far East as Turkey/Iraq and as far west as the UK/Spain.

So that would include freestyle, Greco, modern folk, Catch,Backhold,Cornwall....ect.

There are literal a 100 old folk styles that influenced what I call "roman styles" but many of them have a lot of similarities. There are a few different forms of jacket wrestling mixed in there but most of them seem to be local variations of freestyle.

 

[SirRealKiller]

It was I believe it was originally designed for Samurai's, where wrist control really could make the difference between winning and losing, which at that time meant life/death.

No, Aikido is an offshoot of jujitsu which is what was taught to Samurai's. Jujitsu originally included striking (both feet and hands), grappling, throws and joint locks.

Judo and Aikido both came from jujitsu.

 

[ithinktheymad]

All of the techniques you named falls under the category of grappling. wrestling is a minor subset of an umbrella under grappling.

Everything I have said in this thread are pure facts, none of it are opinions or a personal viewpoint. You seem to know very little about martial arts.

You really think you can go to a judo class and have them teach you how to throw a spinning back kick? Or how to dodge it if it ever gets thrown at you? You can't ignore all these facts.

Many of the martial arts like BJJ is an evolved form of judo that catered to ground fighting. This does not however mean their discipline was developed through hard counter to boxing, karate or all the other martial arts that existed at the time.

It is simply an evolution to another category under the same branch. It was never created to hard counter any other combat sports.

LOL!
Grappling and Wrestling are interchangeable terms.
You are just embarrassing yourself man.

 

[ithinktheymad]

When I say "Roman Style", I mean styles that mainly developed west of the eastern side of the Roman empire. Most every style or wrestling that is common these days developed out of the folk styles of wrestling as far East as Turkey/Iraq and as far west as the UK/Spain.

So that would include freestyle, Greco, modern folk, Catch,Backhold,Cornwall....ect.

There are literal a 100 old folk styles that influenced what I call "roman styles" but many of them have a lot of similarities. There are a few different forms of jacket wrestling mixed in there but most of them seem to be local variations of freestyle.

Gotcha.

 

[ernest8]

Seagal is probably sponsored by ufc to bring some extra fans. i think it's laughable. Seagal looks like a wreck and so does the ufc these days.

 

[bad_k]

LOL!
Grappling and Wrestling are interchangeable terms.
You are just embarrassing yourself man.

If you think grappling and wrestling means the same thing after being told 100 times in details how it's not, it's safe to say you lack the reading comprehension skills to pursue any further in this discussion.

YOU: Hey MOM I learned all these cool wrestling moves today!

MOM: Hm did you join a wrestling club in school?

YOU : No mom I wrestle in judo


^cool story bro

 

[SirRealKiller]

LOL!
Grappling and Wrestling are interchangeable terms.
You are just embarrassing yourself man.

Actaully, no.

Wrestling and grappling are not interchangeable.

The thing that distincts wrestling from grappling is that the majority of wrestling styles don't include joint locks/submissions. So you can say wrestling is grappling but not all grappling is wrestling.

There are basically two major schools of grappling "wrestling" and "jujitsu", one is more takedown and control focused and the other is more focused on submitting opponents. Both are grappling but you cannot confuse the two as both being wrestling.

 

[jimmy dakine]

I think you guys are missing the most important point, or at least ignoring it...SPARRING IS EVERYTHING......it does not matter which art you consider.....aikido is taught in a non sparring, almost classroom setting, except with mats to land on. When you learn the techniques, they are against "opponents" that ARE NOT RESISTING....why? because if there was resistance during this learning process, where you are simply learning the correct way to apply the technique, bones would get broken. Aikido is as serious a self defense system as any in existence. But you must spar, and spar endlessly, which they dont do for some reason...probably because head gear and foot gear doesnt help and just a tap might not be available if you are flying from a throw. In BJJ, they perfect their techniques by sparring endlessly, tapping each other 100s of times...in karate they throw on the gear and go at it.

If any of you guys are in upstate NY, go to Middletown in Orange county to Bob McEwen Jrs dojo....Aikido school of self defense.....guy must be 60 years old and has black belts in BJJ, Judo, Karate, and Aikido....his aikido is MMA.....he was doing bare knuckle unsanctioned fights well before the UFC.....he can explain everything better than I can.....its all about incorporating the technique into the situation.

Google the school, email him, ask him specifically about STREET FIGHTING or REAL FIGHTING or how aikido can be blended into MMA....

 

[ithinktheymad]

Actaully, no.

Wrestling and grappling are not interchangeable.

The thing that distincts wrestling from grappling is that the majority of wrestling styles don't include joint locks/submissions. So you can say wrestling is grappling but not all grappling is wrestling.

There are basically two major schools of grappling "wrestling" and "jujitsu", one is more takedown and control focused and the other is more focused on submitting opponents. Both are grappling but you cannot confuse the two as both being wrestling.

It is simply nomenclature and rulesets. You even had to qualify your flawed argument since you knew I'd say Catch Wrestling or Sambo.

wres

 

[we rowdy]

wristlocks can work in grappling for sure, very underutilized part of bjj

 

[Alexandergreat3]

Seagal is probably sponsored by ufc to bring some extra fans. i think it's laughable. Seagal looks like a wreck and so does the ufc these days.

I have never thought of it like that. You're maybe onto something. They almost always have some sort of "celebrities" at their events, and that's an obvious marketing tool.

But Seagal is fame hungry so he probably came to each event for free lol!

 

[YoungBoyd]

Dude, Seagal knocked out Randy and toyed with Machida and Anderson in sparring. He is the GOAT.

 

[ToetotheFace]

No, Aikido is an offshoot of jujitsu which is what was taught to Samurai's. Jujitsu originally included striking (both feet and hands), grappling, throws and joint locks.

Judo and Aikido both came from jujitsu.

Oh, thanks for the information. I think we can see how a lot of the wrist lock techniques would come more in to play in sword/weapon fights with full body armor though. Getting in and controlling the wrists controls the ability to use the weapon. Also for any type of police body that commonly makes arrests, as it is good for handling disorderly drunks then putting them in handcuffs.

 

[Alexandergreat3]

So what happened to the "deadly technique" that Seagul (not a typo) "taught" Cormier?

Spoiler