A judo man would never tap to Kesa gatame.

[German Supplex]

It was a crank, right? That was a lot of pressure. Not tapping to cranks will get you fucked up. It's not like passing out. He didn't just tap to pressure.

This opening post REALLY takes a lot of credit away from Barnett.

Its also a choke too.

FYI, not tapping to ANY sub will get you fucked up.

 

[rmongler]

It was a neck crank. Kesa gatame is a pin not a submission, so no one will tap for it.

You know its a general attitude like this that goes to show you that most bjj guys, and yeah that includes top level guys too, really don't know how to apply pressure. 'Lol y h tap 2 sid contrl?', because what happens when you lift on the body like that, is that its no longer just your body weight going down on him, but your weight, and HIS weight, and however much extra PSI being exerted by the pull.

 

[tap21]

At the open mat at our gym today, my brother (an ex-wrestler) tapped a lifelong judo guy with this move.

They are about the same weight.

Apparently, my dad (who also wrestled) showed my brother this move when he was ten years old.

 

[Asel1]

This is the exact same way ricco tapped Dean when they were both blue belts , bottom line dean just got caught

 

[freakroor]

i like kesa getame and have tapped some guys from the pressure but never anyone who was very experienced

my instructor has a nasty sidemount and modified kesa, but he told me not to use traditional kesa getame because it is too easy to escape from: the pinned person just has to wrap their arms around the top person's waist/torso and roll them over backwards.

 

[seatea]

i like kesa getame and have tapped some guys from the pressure but never anyone who was very experienced

my instructor has a nasty sidemount and modified kesa, but he told me not to use traditional kesa getame because it is too easy to escape from: the pinned person just has to wrap their arms around the top person's waist/torso and roll them over backwards.

Lol, it's not that simple.

 

[Zankou]

i like kesa getame and have tapped some guys from the pressure but never anyone who was very experienced

my instructor has a nasty sidemount and modified kesa, but he told me not to use traditional kesa getame because it is too easy to escape from: the pinned person just has to wrap their arms around the top person's waist/torso and roll them over backwards.

It is almost impossible to escape a properly sunk kesa from a skilled opponent. The problem with traditional kesa is definitely not that it can easily be escaped. The problem is that it doesn't have great transitions. In sports where you can win by pinning, this is not a problem, but for BJJ, it is not usually ideal. Notice that Barnett used the kesa at the very end of the match, btw ... this was smart use of the clock by him, he didn't need any transition options at that point.

Btw, there are tons of different kesa escapes people will show you. The problem is that, like so many grappling moves, they don't actually work in high-level competition. In actual high-level judo competition, the only kesa escape that works at a high percentage is turning into the guy and going to your knees. I have read an analysis of high-level judo competitions where they analyzed pin escapes. When osaekomi (pin) is established, the bottom guy escaped only 1/3 of the time. When he did escape, in 100% of the cases it was by turning in and escaping the arm. Not one bridge roll, not one "kesa to kesa," not one armbar counter. Those are gym escapes; I use them all the time myself, but against a high level competitor, you must defend earlier by defeating the control and turning in, not letting a strong pin get established. If you let it get established, you are fucked.

 

[German Supplex]

i like kesa getame and have tapped some guys from the pressure but never anyone who was very experienced

my instructor has a nasty sidemount and modified kesa, but he told me not to use traditional kesa getame because it is too easy to escape from: the pinned person just has to wrap their arms around the top person's waist/torso and roll them over backwards.

You can get (inverted) armbarred easily by trying to do this and the person doesn't have to leave that position. They can do it right from kesa gatame. This just goes to show you how little BJJ guys know about this position.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

It is almost impossible to escape a properly sunk kesa from a skilled opponent. The problem with traditional kesa is definitely not that it can easily be escaped. The problem is that it doesn't have great transitions. In sports where you can win by pinning, this is not a problem, but for BJJ, it is not usually ideal. Notice that Barnett used the kesa at the very end of the match, btw ... this was smart use of the clock by him, he didn't need any transition options at that point.

Btw, there are tons of different kesa escapes people will show you. The problem is that, like so many grappling moves, they don't actually work in high-level competition. In actual high-level judo competition, the only kesa escape that works at a high percentage is turning into the guy and going to your knees. I have read an analysis of high-level judo competitions where they analyzed pin escapes. When osaekomi (pin) is established, the bottom guy escaped only 1/3 of the time. When he did escape, in 100% of the cases it was by turning in and escaping the arm. Not one bridge roll, not one "kesa to kesa," not one armbar counter. Those are gym escapes; I use them all the time myself, but against a high level competitor, you must defend earlier by defeating the control and turning in, not letting a strong pin get established. If you let it get established, you are fucked.

Aren't you concerned with creating bad habits?

 

[Zankou]

No, because I'm not an active competitor. Also I like to let the other players establish the pin, then escape it, etc, which requires using some 'last ditch' escapes in combination. This is just for fun and to give the other guy some practice. Against a strong competitor in a competition, if I let them sink the kesa pin like that, I wouldn't be able to escape at all.

Once you realize that 98% of the time a judo competitor will follow up a throw by trying to pin you with kesa, then after you land (and avoid ippon points, give up a waza ari instead) your 100% priority is avoiding the kesa pin sink by escaping the arm and going to your knees. At that point, you defend from turtle. This is "reality principle." This is what people should be practicing.

But I do think newaza seems to often be poorly taught in judo. Literally not one move we have been taught is something you'd see in high level competition. And not one move you'd see in high level competition has been taught. If you look at judo comps, the newaza skillset that actually works is incredibly narrow.

BJJ is somewhat similar, but there's a pedagogical reason for all the weird alternative moves ... it teaches broader movement patterns and flow movement. Still, it's also quite inefficient, they teach a ton of moves that don't actually work at high percentage in competition.

 

[deadlizard]

Man... It didn't take long for this to turn into a judo vs. bjj thread.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

No, because I'm not an active competitor. Also I like to let the other players establish the pin, then escape it, etc, which requires using some 'last ditch' escapes in combination. This is just for fun and to give the other guy some practice. Against a strong competitor in a competition, if I let them sink the kesa pin like that, I wouldn't be able to escape at all.

Once you realize that 98% of the time a judo competitor will follow up a throw by trying to pin you with kesa, then after you land (and avoid ippon points, give up a waza ari instead) your 100% priority is avoiding the kesa pin sink by escaping the arm and going to your knees. At that point, you defend from turtle. This is "reality principle." This is what people should be practicing.

But I do think newaza seems to often be poorly taught in judo. Literally not one move we have been taught is something you'd see in high level competition. And not one move you'd see in high level competition has been taught. If you look at judo comps, the newaza skillset that actually works is incredibly narrow.

BJJ is somewhat similar, but there's a pedagogical reason for all the weird alternative moves ... it teaches broader movement patterns and flow movement. Still, it's also quite inefficient, they teach a ton of moves that don't actually work at high percentage in competition.

you've been very informative in this thread, thanks.

I didn't see the match, only the last 10 seconds. did you see it? if so, where did Dean screw up? it sounds like Barnett was on top of him for most of the match - did he transition into a specific position, say, a minute before the sub, where Dean could have done something?

thanks.

 

[deadlizard]

you've been very informative in this thread, thanks.

I didn't see the match, only the last 10 seconds. did you see it? if so, where did Dean screw up? it sounds like Barnett was on top of him for most of the match - did he transition into a specific position, say, a minute before the sub, where Dean could have done something?

thanks.

Barnette explains his match right after he subbed Lister. Basically Lister was nullifying his attacks for the leg, so he went for the head.

Lister screwed up when he forgot to work on his cardio.

 

[German Supplex]

? if so, where did Dean screw up?

The minue he pulled guard, in the first 10 seconds of the fight. After that, he stayed on bottom the entire time, being dominated by Barnett for the full 20 minutes laying in bottom side control then to be tapped at the end of the match.

 

[German Supplex]

Lister screwed up when he forgot to work on his cardio.

And when he forgot to work his takedowns. And his judo. And the illegal moves that are all legal in the CSW system.

 

[Zankou]

Barnette explains his match right after he subbed Lister. Basically Lister was nullifying his attacks for the leg, so he went for the head.

Lister screwed up when he forgot to work on his cardio.

This was a bad matchup for Lister. Dean wrecks people with leglocks, but he has never been able to impose an upper-body game with similar effectiveness. He often struggles with guys who are strong wrestlers if he can't access their legs.

Problem is that Barnett is an extremely skilled and experienced leglocker who wasn't interested in letting Dean start that game, and has the skills to prevent it from happening. And Lister can't beat Barnett in pure standup wrestling, so he was forced to play guard.

When playing guard, Dean likes to play a "tight" half guard, which IMO sucks against a large powerful wrestler who is experienced in submission wrestling. He doesn't maintain distance from the bottom, which means he is carrying a lot of weight. In a long match at HW, this is a real liability.

This match actually played out very similar to what we saw from Dean in ADCC 2013, where he lost three matches on points. Being an older guy who is carrying too much muscle, if he can't get your legs early and instead ends up trying to wrestle from the bottom for long periods of time, he tends to gas by the middle period. He is very prone to giving up position as well. Even Keenan mounted him.

Btw Dean and Barnett are two of my absolute fave grapplers. I wish we had more guys like them to bring variety into the game.

 

[FinBJJ]

they teach a ton of moves that don't actually work at high percentage in competition.

But muh lug wrench..

 

[rmongler]

you've been very informative in this thread, thanks.

I didn't see the match, only the last 10 seconds. did you see it? if so, where did Dean screw up? it sounds like Barnett was on top of him for most of the match - did he transition into a specific position, say, a minute before the sub, where Dean could have done something?

thanks.

once barnett was already in side control (which was most of the time), he could have switched to a head and arm at pretty much any point (besides early on when lister was hanging on his arm with his legs), theres not really much you can do to stop a transition at that point. only looking at how the submission came late can be deceptive considering barnett was in the driver seat all match, thing is he came in with a gameplan to wear down lister beforehand to make a finish all the more certain, and thats exactly what happened.

 

[NSchoke]

And when he forgot to work his takedowns. And his judo. And the illegal moves that are all legal in the CSW system.

I would guess that Lister has worked takedowns plenty seeing as he was a US National Sambo Champion before starting BJJ. He just used one of the tools in is toolbox to pull guard and try to attack the legs of a larger, stronger man.

What moves are illegal under the rulesets that Lister normally competes under that weren't here?

Barnett has done more high level BJJ comps than Lister. ADCC has similar rules to Metamoris, only scoring is different.

 

[smart.feller]

He didn't tap to kesa, he tapped to a move in kesa.

Jesus. It's like if someone got armbarred from mount and you made a thread going "No one would tap from mount!"

Art Jimmerson would tap.