A judo man would never tap to Kesa gatame.

[tenktriangles]

yes because Josh is not an athlerte? there is nothing in Teddy's training that would help against a Barnett high crotch to heel hook

except for the countless hours spent keeping dudes from getting anywhere near his hips. Jesus, dude. come on. Try harder.

 

[ithinktheymad]

Here is a thought- what about Teddy Riner getting that position on J. Barnett and Buchecha?
Kesagatame and the chest compression are well known technics in judo, wrestling and sambo world. People have been discussing them here for ages.
But it takes a big name to tap, so finally the BJJ community will start paying attention.
Now I'm guessing bunch of new videos and Gracie brake downs are going to follow, discussing the "new trend".
Pathetic.

It's the new inverted Mataleao!

Also a huge LOL to whoever said that Josh would take Teddy down. I nearly dropped my beer when I read that! Hahahahaha.

 

[Uchi Mata]

In Judo, the match would be over due to pin before the suffocation had a chance to set in.

Excellent point. Plus, in Judo you're just trying to hold the guy down. That's very different than the crank/suffocation Barnett was working.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Josh Barnett would kill Teddy Riner in an MMA fight. Josh is a top level HW and has been for years, even if he couldn't take him down (and for the record I don't think he could) he'd just KO him. In a grappling match...it would be pretty boring. I think Josh probably couldn't take him down, but Teddy would most likely be reluctant to engage without the gi. Pulling guard probably would be Josh's best bet, but doing something against a guy like Teddy who as a Judo guy probably has much better ground defense than offense would be hard. If he could get Teddy on his back though I think he'd submit him very quickly.

 

[BrainBar]

So I assume next year's IBJJF Worlds will be won by a Judo master using this technique to beat all the BJJ guys?

 

[German Supplex]

So I assume next year's IBJJF Worlds will be won by a Judo master using this technique to beat all the BJJ guys?

No doubt it would work at the highest levels of BJJ, but its IBJJF banned.

 

[NSchoke]

Aren't Judo and Sambo closely related because Lister was a US National Champ in Sambo before starting BJJ.

 

[German Supplex]

Aren't Judo and Sambo closely related because Lister was a US National Champ in Sambo before starting BJJ.

Lister looks like a pure BJJ guy. He conceded the stand up battle instantly and pulled guard. Trademark jiu jitsu style. Has he abandoned his Sambo?

 

[beepee]

So I assume next year's IBJJF Worlds will be won by a Judo master using this technique to beat all the BJJ guys?

I don't think that's what we were discussing, the bet was no judo guy in history could avoid tapping to josh Barnett in that position. I for one just think that there are quite a few judo/sambo/wrestling guyswho are ffamiliar with being in that position, working in it and yes even escaping it. On that basis I would take that bet. I'm not saying top bjj guys wouldn't submit top judo guys and I don't think anyone else is?? It is what it is, you fight the way you train. Kesa is a massively common pin in judo/sambo/wrestling, maybe not so much bjj??

 

[NSchoke]

Lister looks like a pure BJJ guy. He conceded the stand up battle instantly and pulled guard. Trademark jiu jitsu style. Has he abandoned his Sambo?

He seems to specialize in leglocks above all else, even positioning. I would say Sambo's in his heart. He said himself in his postfight that both his and Josh's styles aren't conventional. Both are BJJ Black Belts with different bases.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

if he couldn't take him down he'd just knock him the fuck out anyway

Of course Barnett would beat him in MMA, but that's not the argument.

maybe he could work a takedown off of strikes mma style...in a grappling comp? no chance

...this is more like it. Let's stay on track and not introduce random strawmen.

 

[Dirty Holt]

yeah Holt what the shit, have you been holding out on us?

Its why I dont train Judo breh.

 

[georgejjr]

Willing to bet Josh Barnett would submit any high level judoka in history with that move.

I suspect Barnett would be able to tap most historical judoka with leg locks. I know some high level judoka have tapped to kesa gatame.

But actually I'd bet that he'd never actually get that particular move on most high level judoka, any more than he's going to get most high level freestyle wrestlers with a double leg - they've spent years defending against it, because its so common.

He'd most likely find a different way to beat most of them. But that move would be playing to their strength, and I suspect it'd never even come up.

Like I said, you don't play to an opponent's strength. Judoka would be silly to go for a morote gari (judo version of double leg which was completely legal until 2008 and might one day come back) against a wrestler. A wrestler would be silly to go for a mule kick against a judoka (the wrestling equivalent of uchi-mata). Because the double is more developed in wrestling, and the uchi-mata in judo.

Same with kesa gatame. Its very developed in judo. Barnett has a lot of excellent tools to use against top level judoka. The scarf hold is not one of them (they'll have seen a lot better ones than his).

 

[seany]

Lister looks like a pure BJJ guy. He conceded the stand up battle instantly and pulled guard. Trademark jiu jitsu style. Has he abandoned his Sambo?

Dean explained in his post-fight interview:
He didn't want to mess around with stand-up with a guy who was a better wrestler than him. He said he was worried about shooting and getting caught in a worse position, so he went straight to the ground to be where he was more comfortable, and expected to have the advantage.

 

[RJ Green]

Its why I dont train Judo breh.

don't be scared handsome, it's the gentle way.

 

[Saenchai]

I have tapped to kesa... in judo lol.
I almost died from the smothering. haha

 

[Kincaid]

He didn't tap to kesa, he tapped to a move in kesa.

Jesus. It's like if someone got armbarred from mount and you made a thread going "No one would tap from mount!"

 

[PowerSource]

Last night I was shocked to see Josh Barnett tap a world class grappler like Dean Lister in a position so basic in Judo that I have seen children master it. Cross training with a lot of BJJ I learned that most of them have no idea what to do or how to defend the kesa gatame position. When I use it on jujisu guys they become like fish out of water. Flailing and thrashing trying to get out of position but to no avail. Actual the only defense that Jujitsu guys use against me that work is cross facing the face and throwing legs over. But this only works because you can't touch the face in Judo, but once you readjust your weight and learn this defense, not even this technique will work.

I have watched thousands of Judo matches in my life and never once have I seen someone tap to kesa gatame. Is this because Judo guys have more Budo than BJJ guys? Probably not..but I would like you BJJ guys to do your homework on this position and maybe cross train at your local Judo club and learn it from real masters.

It was a neck crank. Kesa gatame is a pin not a submission, so no one will tap for it.

 

[German Supplex]

Dean explained in his post-fight interview:
He didn't want to mess around with stand-up with a guy who was a better wrestler than him. He said he was worried about shooting and getting caught in a worse position, so he went straight to the ground to be where he was more comfortable, and expected to have the advantage.

So in other words he resorted to what BJJ guys do, concede top and pull that guard!

 

[mattemate]

It was a crank, right? That was a lot of pressure. Not tapping to cranks will get you fucked up. It's not like passing out. He didn't just tap to pressure.

This opening post REALLY takes a lot of credit away from Barnett.