A few questions after watching Mark Kerr doc "The Smashing Machine"

[TheMMAnalyst]

I'm not his psychologist so who knows. People say Roger Huerta lacked heart but he said he was always haunted by childhood demons. The bottom line is he just didn't perform well against good to great competition. I've heard people talk about how amazing Kerr was in his first few years, but he simply didn't fight a lot of good competition before Fujita and often had a huge size disadvantage.

Lesnar gets a lot of flak here but he fought a lot more top fighters in his 10 matches than Kerr did over 27 fights.

I think the main thing is that at HW having super-athleticism is a ridiculous cheat-code. Most HW's are basically fat LHW's or if they are real HW's they are slow and plodding. When you have to cut from 300 lbs and are still like 12% BF and move like a MW it gives you so many ridiculous advantages in size/strength/speed that most opponents are mentally cowered/overwhelmed before the fight even begins.

Guys like Kerr and Brock basically had the most basic of MMA skillsets possible (a double-leg, a straight right, and top-control with GnP) but they had such a huge edge in size/strength/speed they could usually just overwhelm most opponents that weren't nearly as athletic, even if vastly more skilled.

As soon as either guy started fighting guys that could match them physically you could really see how terrible their striking was and how they looked completely out of sorts when they couldn't overwhelm opponents.

It's the ultimate "bully fighter" mentality - you assume you are going to win by being bigger and stronger because that's how it always goes for you. Then when it doesn't work, you don't know what to do because you never actually kept working to build a bigger skillset and flush out the part of your game that is hollow.

Kerr was basically the early Lesnar prototype minus the pro-wrestling background, but the fight-style similarities are numerous.

 

[Poirierfan]

I don't know.. but I have the DVD of that and its great.. one of the best MMA documentaries.

This and the Poirier doc (Fightville) are my favorites, go figure. Lol

 

[HI SCOTT NEWMAN]

This and the Poirier doc (Fightville) are my favorites, go figure. Lol

Yeah they are both so good. Very well done both of them. I enjoyed the Poirier doc a lot, he is such an awesome guy. I remember buying the Smashing Machine DVD in Blockbusters because they were selling some DVDs and it was on sale, not rent. I can't remember how much it was, but it was very cheap.. so I picked it up and was really happy I did.

I wish that Poirier Fightville doc was on DVD or blu ray. Yes yes yes yes I know everyone is gonna say its 2024 you old fogey, but hear me out lol....The Smashing Machine is so much better on DVD than on the internet because the DVDs has lots of extras, there are so many other scenes and madness and I can't find it online anywhere, all the youtube versions and other streaming and video sites just have the full documentary, but the extras are lost forever, unless you have the DVD.

 

[NoSmilez]

Kerr wasn't that bad. He barely trained for his fights. Training back then wasn't that good either. He is from an older generation that fought Vale Tudo in Brazil. His body is really mangled; his ankles have been worked on and one is permanently partially dislocated. There are also surgeries to his knees, elbows, biceps and hands. I think the most important thing is that he didn't really want to fight.

There is a good sports illustrated article about him. They really go into his life. Like I didn't know he was a cocaine addict at the age of 20 and part of team Fox Catcher etc etc. This was all before he even went into MMA.

 

[Poirierfan]

Yeah they are both so good. Very well done both of them. I enjoyed the Poirier doc a lot, he is such an awesome guy. I remember buying the Smashing Machine DVD in Blockbusters because they were selling some DVDs and it was on sale, not rent. I can't remember how much it was, but it was very cheap.. so I picked it up and was really happy I did.

I wish that Poirier Fightville doc was on DVD or blu ray. Yes yes yes yes I know everyone is gonna say its 2024 you old fogey, but hear me out lol....The Smashing Machine is so much better on DVD than on the internet because the DVDs has lots of extras, there are so many other scenes and madness and I can't find it online anywhere, all the youtube versions and other streaming and video sites just have the full documentary, but the extras are lost forever, unless you have the DVD.

I'm old too, remember for a short time they had those huge discs that where the size of records? My friend had a player that used those that we watched movies on when we were kids.

 

[mkt]

I think the main thing is that at HW having super-athleticism is a ridiculous cheat-code. Most HW's are basically fat LHW's or if they are real HW's they are slow and plodding. When you have to cut from 300 lbs and are still like 12% BF and move like a MW it gives you so many ridiculous advantages in size/strength/speed that most opponents are mentally cowered/overwhelmed before the fight even begins.

Guys like Kerr and Brock basically had the most basic of MMA skillsets possible (a double-leg, a straight right, and top-control with GnP) but they had such a huge edge in size/strength/speed they could usually just overwhelm most opponents that weren't nearly as athletic, even if vastly more skilled.

As soon as either guy started fighting guys that could match them physically you could really see how terrible their striking was and how they looked completely out of sorts when they couldn't overwhelm opponents.

It's the ultimate "bully fighter" mentality - you assume you are going to win by being bigger and stronger because that's how it always goes for you. Then when it doesn't work, you don't know what to do because you never actually kept working to build a bigger skillset and flush out the part of your game that is hollow.

Kerr was basically the early Lesnar prototype minus the pro-wrestling background, but the fight-style similarities are numerous.

Good points. I'd say Kerr had an easier time than Lesnar given the competition of the late 90s (like I mentioned, some guys he fought were more like LHWs and MWs). Also, I think Lesnar was more tough/durable based on the beating he took from Carwin where he still won. Carwin was also in that basic wrestler mode, except with heavy hands. Carwin's striking could be deadly but was very basic, as shown during the beating he took from JDS. He had power, but that's it. Basically the heavy hands of an early Tank Abbott in a body more like Coleman or Kerr with D2 wrestling, lol.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

i remember when i use to whack off solely to my mental images or pictures of bush. those were the days.

 

[mahavishnunj]

i remember when i use to whack off solely to my mental images or pictures of bush. those were the days.

Pretty fucked up man.

 

[TheTickG]

Just got through watching the old documentary about Mark Kerr "The Smashing Machine" and at the end of the film they say he and his gf ended up getting married, does anyone know what became of that relationship? Are they still together? I ask because I was so surprised by them getting married, because it seemed like such a dysfunctional relationship and definitely NOT marriage material, so I'm very curious how that relationship turned out.

And the other thing I wanted to ask is did Vovchanchyn suffer any kind of injury from those knees he took from Coleman in the final? Those were some of the nastiest strikes I've ever seen in MMA, I'd be surprised if he didn't end up with some kinda skull fracture.

As bad as they were, those knees seemed normal to me back then. MMA had a certain brutality to it back then.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Good points. I'd say Kerr had an easier time than Lesnar given the competition of the late 90s (like I mentioned, some guys he fought were more like LHWs and MWs). Also, I think Lesnar was more tough/durable based on the beating he took from Carwin where he still won. Carwin was also in that basic wrestler mode, except with heavy hands. Carwin's striking could be deadly but was very basic, as shown during the beating he took from JDS. He had power, but that's it. Basically the heavy hands of an early Tank Abbott in a body more like Coleman or Kerr with D2 wrestling, lol.

It's tough to gauge, but yeah you are probably right that Lesnar was more able to be a damage sponge without his will breaking.

Lesnar was lucky to be in a time and place where the promotion he fought for had a hugely vested interest in his success. I don't think the Japanese were ever looking to give lay-up fights to foreigners (especially Americans), so Kerr basically got fed to the wolves after he beat-up Enson (who beat Randy earlier in his career, arguably Lesnar's best win, so the MMA math comes full circle).

 

[markantony20]

back in my younger days, i shared a similar nickname.

It’s true this guy could smash an entire box of Krispy Kreme donuts in a matter of seconds

 

[mkt]

It's tough to gauge, but yeah you are probably right that Lesnar was more able to be a damage sponge without his will breaking.

Lesnar was lucky to be in a time and place where the promotion he fought for had a hugely vested interest in his success. I don't think the Japanese were ever looking to give lay-up fights to foreigners (especially Americans), so Kerr basically got fed to the wolves after he beat-up Enson (who beat Randy earlier in his career, arguably Lesnar's best win, so the MMA math comes full circle).

Yeah, Kerr's first 11 fights were mostly layups. He beat some total unknown named Dwayne Cason in the UFC 15 tournament, an alternate who filled in for a fatigued David Beneteau. Cason weighed 212 pounds and retired with a 1-1 MMA record. That was after Kerr beat Ranger Stott with his made-up RIP style, lol. That was understandable for UFC 3 (where Steve Jennum won the final as an alternate) but surprising they couldn't find better fighters by UFC 15. I guess HW has always been shallow....plus Randy, Vitor, Mo Smith and Tank were tied up in individual fights.

But yeah, it wasn't easy once he went to Japan. He was a big name that everyone wanted on their resume. Lesnar only had it easy in his first fight, ironically in Japan. With all his hype and beating Herring/Couture in his 3rd and 4th fights, there's no way they were going to build him slowly and let him pad his record. Maybe if his last name was Nikal...

 

[ticho123]

It's tough to gauge, but yeah you are probably right that Lesnar was more able to be a damage sponge without his will breaking.

Lesnar was lucky to be in a time and place where the promotion he fought for had a hugely vested interest in his success. I don't think the Japanese were ever looking to give lay-up fights to foreigners (especially Americans), so Kerr basically got fed to the wolves after he beat-up Enson (who beat Randy earlier in his career, arguably Lesnar's best win, so the MMA math comes full circle).

I've always found it funny this notion of how Lesnar was simultaneously protected and rushed to the title. He got Frank Mir in his 2nd professional MMA fight, Heath Herring in his 3rd and Couture in his 4th. This is apparently "lay-up fights". Meanwhile Kerr was "thrown to the wolves" by having to face Fujita who was 3-0 at the time, then Borisov who was 1-0 and then Igor who of course was a veteran and a top fighter. I think it's fair to say that Lesnar gets looked upon very differently than if a more popular, less gimmicky fighter had a similar run.

 

[Levi_]

He was a beast with a ton of potential, especially in the days of no drug testing. However, he always lacked heart and fortitude in tough fights. A lot of his early wins were total mismatches (Moti Hortenstein was a 190-pound kickboxer and "Ranger" Stott made up his own fighting style). Once he faced better competition (Fujita, Igor, Heath Herring, etc.) he started losing despite a pretty big size/strength advantage. He had more potential than Coleman but less durability and heart, sadly.

Don't forget he also had a penchant for knocking himself out. Hard enough to avoid his opponent knocking him out, he got the finish on himself.

 

[Levi_]

And the other thing I wanted to ask is did Vovchanchyn suffer any kind of injury from those knees he took from Coleman in the final? Those were some of the nastiest strikes I've ever seen in MMA, I'd be surprised if he didn't end up with some kinda skull fracture.

Vovchanchin performed well for a long time after that, so I doubt that caused any severe damage. Tito was the one with a broken head.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Yeah, Kerr's first 11 fights were mostly layups. He beat some total unknown named Dwayne Cason in the UFC 15 tournament, an alternate who filled in for a fatigued David Beneteau. Cason weighed 212 pounds and retired with a 1-1 MMA record. That was after Kerr beat Ranger Stott with his made-up RIP style, lol. That was understandable for UFC 3 (where Steve Jennum won the final as an alternate) but surprising they couldn't find better fighters by UFC 15. I guess HW has always been shallow....plus Randy, Vitor, Mo Smith and Tank were tied up in individual fights.

But yeah, it wasn't easy once he went to Japan. He was a big name that everyone wanted on their resume. Lesnar only had it easy in his first fight, ironically in Japan. With all his hype and beating Herring/Couture in his 3rd and 4th fights, there's no way they were going to build him slowly and let him pad his record. Maybe if his last name was Nikal...

It was HW, so realistically a super-athlete can be champ in under 10 fights.

As you said, it’s always been a shallow pond and the athleticism + size edge becomes so
significant it’s ridiculous.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

I've always found it funny this notion of how Lesnar was simultaneously protected and rushed to the title. He got Frank Mir in his 2nd professional MMA fight, Heath Herring in his 3rd and Couture in his 4th. This is apparently "lay-up fights". Meanwhile Kerr was "thrown to the wolves" by having to face Fujita who was 3-0 at the time, then Borisov who was 1-0 and then Igor who of course was a veteran and a top fighter. I think it's fair to say that Lesnar gets looked upon very differently than if a more popular, less gimmicky fighter had a similar run.

I think you put it best - he was both protected and rushed.

Mir was 2-2 in his last 4 against relative nobodies (the only really notable name was Brandon Vera, who beat him). Lesnar would’ve won that fight with his size/athleticism bull rush strategy if Mazz didn’t stop the fight to deduct a point.

Heath Herring had 40+ MMA fights and was pretty washed - he’d fight twice more, lose both by decision to relative nobodies and retire.

Couture was a LHW 45 year old man heavily physically declined - HW was a wasteland of athletic talent during this era.

Basically they gave Lesnar a speed-run to the title. The biggest names that were the most washed possible. Mir ended up having a nice career resurgence but Heath and Randy did not. If Brock took a bad loss it might make him quit fighting, since he had wrestling in his back pocket and was a star there was a vested interest in his success.

I said thrown to the wolves because they gave Kerr Igor after Enson. Not trying to discredit Lesnar but I think it’s fair to put it into relative perspective. The UFC wanted Lesnar as champ, Pride could give 2 shits if Kerr won or died in the ring.

 

[sverre054]

Seems to be doing a lot better these days. He got remarried fairly recently. Hopefully, the Rock paid him some $$$ for the smashing machine rights

 

[ticho123]

I think you put it best - he was both protected and rushed.

Mir was 2-2 in his last 4 against relative nobodies (the only really notable name was Brandon Vera, who beat him). Lesnar would’ve won that fight with his size/athleticism bull rush strategy if Mazz didn’t stop the fight to deduct a point.

Heath Herring had 40+ MMA fights and was pretty washed - he’d fight twice more, lose both by decision to relative nobodies and retire.

Couture was a LHW 45 year old man heavily physically declined - HW was a wasteland of athletic talent during this era.

Basically they gave Lesnar a speed-run to the title. The biggest names that were the most washed possible. Mir ended up having a nice career resurgence but Heath and Randy did not. If Brock took a bad loss it might make him quit fighting, since he had wrestling in his back pocket and was a star there was a vested interest in his success.

I said thrown to the wolves because they gave Kerr Igor after Enson. Not trying to discredit Lesnar but I think it’s fair to put it into relative perspective. The UFC wanted Lesnar as champ, Pride could give 2 shits if Kerr won or died in the ring.

I guess. I mean hindsight is 20/20 and the difference between a "vet" and someone who's "washed" ultimately depends on whether they won or lost. Herring basically retired after the Lesnar fight, the two additional fights came years later. Before Lesnar he was at least good enough to have an even fight vs Kongo (whatever that's worth). Still, you can't say it's a weak opponent for someone's third professional fight, it's HW so no one (except maybe prime Fedor) is perfect. Couture definitely was declined but he still was the HW champ having won the belt fair and square so I don't know.

It's fair to say Lesnar got a quick path to the title, but I still think that if it was a more legit fighter without the ugly tattoos and the embarrassing WWE career his run would be viewed as legendary, more like Pereira's run to the title is viewed today. As it is now you can't shake the feeling that Lesnar's run reflected quite poorly on MMA as a whole. I 100% rooted for both Cain and Overeem vs Lesnar but I'm trying to be unbiased in my assessment of his career.

 

[NikLuk]

I'm old too, remember for a short time they had those huge discs that where the size of records? My friend had a player that used those that we watched movies on when we where kids. I think those were the first blue ray discs, I'm not too sure though.View attachment 1021770

That’s the LaserDisc. You can even see it printed on the disc in the picture.