A bloody end to a multicultural fairy-tale: Balkan wars

[Blood and Thunder]

@bad mojo Here's an audio account of what this war looked like. Are you able to corroborate how vicious this kind of thing got? Real or hollywood?

Perfect reason why it's important to never let your government disarm you.

 

[OCGSC]

“Dardania” was always majority Serb land.

Serbs were pretty much driven out by incoming Albanians brought by Turks n later on fleeing the Hoxha regime n let’s not forget all the ethnic cleansing in ww1 n 2 n of course during Tito communist regime where Serbs were driven out n not permitted to return.

That + Albanians families having 10 to 15 kids which changed demographics pretty quickly

N btw stop with the Albanians = Illyrians nonsense

There’s no real link between the 2

Illryans were last mentioned in 7 century n pretty much got assimilated into Slavic culture, Albanians aka arnauts were 1st mentioned in 10th or 11th century n is still disputed if it’s same Albanians .

So in other words Albanian history is pretty ambiguous

Interestingly nuff there’s another Albania in Caucasus n it existed until 8th century

That + similarities between Chechnyan n Albanian language...

Makes you wonder

I love stuff like this it always make me want to travel. Interesting how we can move and it can change or culture and sometimes they way we look.

 

[Greoric]

Perfect reason why it's important to never let your government disarm you.

Indeed.

 

[bad mojo]

@bad mojo Here's an audio account of what this war looked like. Are you able to corroborate how vicious this kind of thing got? Real or hollywood?

Thanks for posting this, I haven't seen this before. This is a pretty good account of how things can go wrong overnight. Much of what is said is absolutely true. Some good tips and advice in there, also. Especially when it comes to the value of things in the times of war. A pair of dry socks is worth more than a car. People would trade their brand new TVs for a bag of potatoes. Cigarettes, alcohol and painkillers were equal to gold. Bosnia was messed up conflict. You often had frontlines right between two apartment buildings, neighbors would shoot at each other from across the street. Regular people were trapped in the middle of it. Snipers were everywhere. Just like that, you can't even walk straight through your apartment, let alone leave it. You couldn't see a dog, pigeon or any bird for months in urban areas. People would eat anything, and would do anything to get food. Good video.

 

[bad mojo]

Milosevic was a hero that has been wrongly maligned by history

Maybe I wouldn't go as far as calling him a hero, but he was definitely the only leader in Balkans who had no foreign back up behind him, and the only one who went to international court in Hague, which is ridiculous. As @grimballer has said, Milošević was actually a socialist, and many Serbian nationalists resented his politics deeply, myself included. But in those times, public opinion was formed by BBC, CNN and other media who were considered a legitimate news sources. No internet, no social media back then, so it was easy to portray him as a crazy, blood-thirsty Serbian nationalist, which is laughable.

 

[Greoric]

Thanks for posting this, I haven't seen this before. This is a pretty good account of how things can go wrong overnight. Much of what is said is absolutely true. Some good tips and advice in there, also. Especially when it comes to the value of things in the times of war. A pair of dry socks is worth more than a car. People would trade their brand new TVs for a bag of potatoes. Cigarettes, alcohol and painkillers were equal to gold. Bosnia was messed up conflict. You often had frontlines right between two apartment buildings, neighbors would shoot at each other from across the street. Regular people were trapped in the middle of it. Snipers were everywhere. Just like that, you can't even walk straight through your apartment, let alone leave it. You couldn't see a dog, pigeon or any bird for months in urban areas. People would eat anything, and would do anything to get food. Good video.

Shit, thanks for being on here to corroborate it. The bolded was jaw dropping tho. For what may be headed our way in Europe and especially the US with all the weapons floating around, your account and experience here should have much more attention that you're getting.

In those situations, when were people able to get out? At night?

 

[KeepItRealist]

The commercials I see today, especially during the big events like the Super Bowl that feature women in hijabs and Latino immigrants promoting multiculturalism today remind me an awful lot of the nonsensical propaganda released in Yugoslavia during the Sarajevo Olympics promoting the different ethnic groups in Bosnia right before the conflict began.

 

[bad mojo]

Shit, thanks for being on here to corroborate it. The bolded was jaw dropping tho. For what may be headed our way in Europe and especially the US with all the weapons floating around, your account and experience here should have much more attention that you're getting.

In those situations, when were people able to get out? At night?

One of my closest friends is a refugee from Bosnia. He lived in an eastern part of capital city, Sarajevo. When the war broke out, his family was trapped in an apartment building mostly populated by muslim families. They switched their place with a muslim family that lived across the street. After a couple of days, everyone involved had reached an agreement and they took out the carpets from apartments and hanged them to form some kind of wall between the buildings. It served as a cover for protection from snipers, and the deal was made that whoever chose to walk through the corridor of carpets would be left alone. They would go outside early in the morning in search for a food or anything else. At the same time, both Serb and muslim soldiers were occupying the buildings, so you never really knew if your parent or family member would get killed if some hot head decided to break the agreement. My friend's family managed to get him and his sister out of there and to Serbia after two months of living on a frontline.
In other places, you had to test your luck every time you went out. Not only could you get shot, but civil war in urban areas brings a ton of confusion. You can't carry your documents, everyone you meet looks the same, and you never know who's the guy walking towards you with an AK-47, a friend or foe. Insanity.

 

[Blowing Dixie]

While I agree to a point, there were ongoing wars on a multiple levels: civil AND religious. While Serbs and Croats always fought on the opposite sides, conflict in Kosovo was a case where people were allowed to enter the country illegally, get all the benefits while actively planning to conquer the land. Native population was forced to stay silent or lose jobs, end up in jail or worse.

This is EXACTLY like Sweden and other countries in Western Europe right now.

 

[bad mojo]

This is EXACTLY like Sweden and other countries in Western Europe right now.

Absolutely. I can't escape the feeling that my country was a testing ground for things to come in the future. The pattern is the same.

 

[ferrari]

Majority of people don't know, there was a huge muslim immigration after the WW2. In 70s, Yugoslav government imposed state policy called "Brotherhood and Unity". It is EXACTLY the same thing as today's "diversity". I'm Serbian, Orthodox Christian. My parents had to baptize me in secret, because being Christian was considered backwards and nationalistic. At the same time, thousands upon thousands of muslims from Albania were allowed to enter southern province of Serbia, Kosovo. They were given free housing, welfare, payed no taxes. As the years went by, mosques started popping everywhere. Crime soared. Serbs started leaving Kosovo for northern parts of Serbia.

During the 80s, "no go zones" started forming. You couldn't speak Serbian there. Cars would be set on fire, churches also. Police were attacked constantly. More Serbs fled. In 90s, Yugoslavia fell apart. Serbia was helping Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia and was unable to deal with muslim threat in Kosovo. By 1998, muslims from all over middle-east arrived there and Milošević was forced to take action. NATO bombings started and
the rest is well known.

A simple question regarding the nationalistic baptism thing: Did you live in Kosova ? If not then i dont care what Serbia thinked about being baptised .Catholics were baptised freely with no problem here in Kosova and even Orthodoxs were free to do so for as far as im concerned .

Mosques were in Kosova "everywhere" because of Ottoman Period and a large amount of Albanians being muslims they werent because of Yugoslavia gov wanting "diversity"

Albnanians both christian and muslims were here for Centuries they didnt migrate here in the 70s lol that may be the dumbest narrative ever. There was no "muslim" threat in Kosova it was Albanians who wanted independence. We also worked our assess off we didnt get free shit in Yugoslavia stop lying , Not to mention all the mines profits around Kosova never helped Kosova infrastructure or anything there was even a slogan "Trepça punon , Beogradi ndërton" (Trepça works , Belgrade builds/prospers". In the 90s Albanian didnt even ahve schools (literally) the yeneded to complete the middle school in Houses . Not to mention a large amount of Albanians being expelled from their jobs in the 80s and 90s (My grandfather was one of them he lost his job as a fire-fighter , he won the legal battle pre-war then and got paid what they owed him) .
"Muslims from all over middle east" , "Milosevic was foced to take action in 1998" may be the funniest part of this "explaination" , Milosevic is a known terrorist who has been calling for ethnic cleansing of Albanians since the late 80s and re-started the terror against Albanians way before 1998 and since when Albanians are "muslims from middle east" , Kosova War was a war for independence with national motives , not a religious war , not even close to it. If you really think that then explain to me why did all these Albanian Catholics fought in a religious islamic war then ?

 

[bad mojo]

A simple question regarding the nationalistic baptism thing: Did you live in Kosova ? If not then i dont care what Serbia thinked about being baptised .Catholics were baptised freely with no problem here in Kosova and even Orthodoxs were free to do so for as far as im concerned .

Mosques were in Kosova "everywhere" because of Ottoman Period and a large amount of Albanians being muslims they werent because of Yugoslavia gov wanting "diversity"

Albnanians both christian and muslims were here for Centuries they didnt migrate here in the 70s lol that may be the dumbest narrative ever. There was no "muslim" threat in Kosova it was Albanians who wanted independence. We also worked our assess off we didnt get free shit in Yugoslavia stop lying , Not to mention all the mines profits around Kosova never helped Kosova infrastructure or anything there was even a slogan "Trepça punon , Beogradi ndërton" (Trepça works , Belgrade builds/prospers". In the 90s Albanian didnt even ahve schools (literally) the yeneded to complete the middle school in Houses . Not to mention a large amount of Albanians being expelled from their jobs in the 80s and 90s (My grandfather was one of them he lost his job as a fire-fighter , he won the legal battle pre-war then and got paid what they owed him) .
"Muslims from all over middle east" , "Milosevic was foced to take action in 1998" may be the funniest part of this "explaination" , Milosevic is a known terrorist who has been calling for ethnic cleansing of Albanians since the late 80s and re-started the terror against Albanians way before 1998 and since when Albanians are "muslims from middle east" , Kosova War was a war for independence with national motives , not a religious war , not even close to it. If you really think that then explain to me why did all these Albanian Catholics fought in a religious islamic war then ?

My father is from Peć. His father, and his children were killed by the end of the ww2 by Albanians. The youngest kid was 2 years old. My grandmother survived with 2 remaining kids, my uncle and my father who was a baby in her womb. In 1970s, my uncle, who became a journalist was sentenced to a 12 years prison sentence for trying to publish a book detailing how the communists were plotting the ethnic rearrangement of Kosovo. Everything he claimed was going to happen, happened.

I was born while my uncle was still in prison, and my father gave me the same name, in spite of his brother being considered public enemy. My entire family was pressured in leaving Kosovo in late 70s. If you're from Priština, you probably know where the building of national Yugoslav TV station was. That was my granmother's house. I guess the place is not there anymore, haven't been to Priština so long.

 

[ferrisjso]

Ok, Sherbros. In another thread concerning the future of Europe, I've posted some some opinions based on personal experiences of living through the collapse of Yugoslavia, or "mini-EU" as it was often called before in ended in civil and religious wars. @Greoric and @sniper took some interest in my experiences and suggested a new thread.

I'm open for any political, historic and real-life military questions you may have, and will try to stay as objective as possible.

I'll use a part of my post from that thread to start:

Majority of people don't know, there was a huge muslim immigration after the WW2. In 70s, Yugoslav government imposed state policy called "Brotherhood and Unity". It is EXACTLY the same thing as today's "diversity". I'm Serbian, Orthodox Christian. My parents had to baptize me in secret, because being Christian was considered backwards and nationalistic. At the same time, thousands upon thousands of muslims from Albania were allowed to enter southern province of Serbia, Kosovo. They were given free housing, welfare, payed no taxes. As the years went by, mosques started popping everywhere. Crime soared. Serbs started leaving Kosovo for northern parts of Serbia.

During the 80s, "no go zones" started forming. You couldn't speak Serbian there. Cars would be set on fire, churches also. Police were attacked constantly. More Serbs fled. In 90s, Yugoslavia fell apart. Serbia was helping Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia and was unable to deal with muslim threat in Kosovo. By 1998, muslims from all over middle-east arrived there and Milošević was forced to take action. NATO bombings started and
the rest is well known.

Calling Yugoslavia the "mini EU" isn't fair to the EU. At all. Say what you want about the EU no ones committing genocide or counter geocide or counter counter genocide. Outside of the UK which always had a foot outside of the EU anyway and Greece(for obvious reasons), the EU has been pretty popular.

 

[ferrisjso]

Are there any statues left of Tito. Tito kept Yugoslavians from killing each other.

Also might have killed Stalin.

 

[bad mojo]

Calling Yugoslavia the "mini EU" isn't fair to the EU. At all. Say what you want about the EU no ones committing genocide or counter geocide or counter counter genocide. Outside of the UK which always had a foot outside of the EU anyway and Greece(for obvious reasons), the EU has been pretty popular.

What I meant by "mini EU" was that Yugoslavia was a unnatural formation of different nations joined together, with the state doctrine where some nationalism was heavily suppressed, while others were encouraged. Media, education and welfare policies were almost identical to what the EU does now. The only positive was that Yugoslavia was open to western cultural influence and products, unlike majority of communist countries at the time.

 

[ferrisjso]

What I meant by "mini EU" was that Yugoslavia was a unnatural formation of different nations joined together, with the state doctrine where some nationalism was heavily suppressed, while others were encouraged. Media, education and welfare policies were almost identical to what the EU does now. The only positive was that Yugoslavia was open to western cultural influence and products, unlike majority of communist countries at the time.

Well Yugoslavia was basically Serbia getting everything it wanted after WWI. "Serbs" might have been the same race but they had such different religions and cultures it was going to be a shitshow cause one group was set up to dominate.

But yeah generally different nations joining together are superior to ethno states that's the American way!

 

[bad mojo]

Well Yugoslavia was basically Serbia getting everything it wanted after WWI. "Serbs" might have been the same race but they had such different religions and cultures it was going to be a shitshow cause one group was set up to dominate.

But yeah generally different nations joining together are superior to ethno states that's the American way!

It was completely the opposite. Why do you think there were so many Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia? Because those two countries never existed prior to ww2. After the war, foreign powers drew the borders of Yugoslavian republics, leaving millions of Serbs living outside Serbia. Simply put, Serbia with appropriate borders would've been too big to be allowed to exist.

And US is probably the greatest nation in the world, built on truly fantastic principles. But the difference is, US started from point zero, while many other regions in the world carry some real messed up history with them. Balkan being the one of them.

 

[ferrari]

My father is from Peć. His father, and his children were killed by the end of the ww2 by Albanians. The youngest kid was 2 years old. My grandmother survived with 2 remaining kids, my uncle and my father who was a baby in her womb. In 1970s, my uncle, who became a journalist was sentenced to a 12 years prison sentence for trying to publish a book detailing how the communists were plotting the ethnic rearrangement of Kosovo. Everything he claimed was going to happen, happened.

I was born while my uncle was still in prison, and my father gave me the same name, in spite of his brother being considered public enemy. My entire family was pressured in leaving Kosovo in late 70s. If you're from Priština, you probably know where the building of national Yugoslav TV station was. That was my granmother's house. I guess the place is not there anymore, haven't been to Priština so long.

1943 attacks in Peja ? Yeah i've heard about that. Many massacres happened during that time in both sides killing civilians is a bad thing , RIP your uncles and nieces. Many Albanians left Kosova during that time as well , possibly more than Serbians (There was even an pre-war agreement between Yugoslavia and Turkey to send Albanian Muslims to Turkey , its a real thing not a conspiracy check it out) . Serbians were leaving Kosova in the 80s mostly due to economical issues tbh. Adem Demaçi was also in prison for 30 years for writting a book.

Also was the Yugoslav TV station today's RTK ? Yes i know where it is , There are some old small houses near RTK i believe .
Have you been in Kosova post-war or post-independence ?

Are you refering to this ?

 

[bad mojo]

1943 attacks in Peja ? Yeah i've heard about that. Many massacres happened during that time in both sides killing civilians is a bad thing , RIP your uncles and nieces. Many Albanians left Kosova during that time as well , possibly more than Serbians (There was even an pre-war agreement between Yugoslavia and Turkey to send Albanian Muslims to Turkey , its a real thing not a conspiracy check it out) . Serbians were leaving Kosova in the 80s mostly due to economical issues tbh. Adem Demaçi was also in prison for 30 years for writting a book.

Also was the Yugoslav TV station today's RTK ? Yes i know where it is , There are some old small houses near RTK i believe .
Have you been in Kosova post-war or post-independence ?

Are you refering to this ?

Thank you, man. Yes, that's the location. My parents told me that when my family got driven out, members of Šalja (spelling?) family helped them a lot before they managed to find a place to stay in Belgrade. I visit Peć and Prizren occasionally, have a lots of family members buried there. Even during the war I couldn't manage to go to Priština, I was there some 30 years ago. I know it's changed a lot.

 

[ferrari]

Thank you, man. Yes, that's the location. My parents told me that when my family got driven out, members of Šalja (spelling?) family helped them a lot before they managed to find a place to stay in Belgrade. I visit Peć and Prizren occasionally, have a lots of family members buried there. Even during the war I couldn't manage to go to Priština, I was there some 30 years ago. I know it's changed a lot.

Shala tribe , yes .
My family didnt leave Prishtina during the war and our first neighbors were Serbians(The main women in that family talked Albanian fluently) and even during war my family had a great relationship with them , They helped us in several occasions during the war with however they could and the main women of that family even cried alongside my family members when the nephews of my grandmother (sons of her sister) were massacred. We also helped her and her family for as long as they stayed in Prishtina post war (A short time) . There was another Serbian family in my apartment but we didnt have agood relationship with them and neither did the other Serbian family (our first neighbor) who would hangout with Albanians(us) more than that other Serbian family.