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A bit of a bias?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by SamuelDeath, Jan 16, 2006.

  1. SamuelDeath

    SamuelDeath White Belt

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    So I have been training in Muay Thai for the last 4-5 months. It seems to fit all the criteria of a legit school. (it is in the good graces of master toddy). I like it.

    The owner is also a very well respected wing-tsun'r(taught by some grandmaster).

    But they (the instructors) talk up the wing-tsun and how it is purely combat and super gnarly and the Muay Thai is mostly sport, we train legit and hard and they are always talking about the spirit and heart and toughness of a thai boxer but not a whole lot of talk of outside the ring uses.

    I know the MT is considered a sport, but I also see its has many efficient self defense applications as well. Does it just kinda go without saying that if you become proficient in the techniques that you could hold your own in a streetfight? they do recognize its self defense applications but no to the degree of thier wing-tsun program.



    I dont want this to turn into a this vs. that shitflinging fest but I would like some opinions. And why wing-tsun is held in such high regard (to them anyway, because I don't see what is so special about it)

    Im leaving this kinda open ended.
     
  2. TapSD

    TapSD Killer Bee....1%

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    I dont know anything about wing tsun honestly..but ive used knee's in streetfights before and they work great..a good thai clinch and some knees ends a fight very quickly..plus if you train you stay a little calmer and control your adrenaline cause your used to guys throwing at you.
     
  3. TapSD

    TapSD Killer Bee....1%

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    oh..and elbows...open a cut with an elbow..most people dont want to fight anymore once they see there own blood
     
  4. FIGHT FAN

    FIGHT FAN Brown Belt

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    training for sport is more efficient than just for self defence purposes. when training for sport you know your gonna do battle in the ring, and it motivates one to train harder, get into better shape and to polish your technique or else you know your gonna get your ass handed to you.
     
  5. meng_mao

    meng_mao this belt has flava

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    You could ask them to have a sparring match, in which they use WC and you, or someone else if you don't think you'd be good enough, use MT. You play mugger/attacker, they play victim.

    Let them do groin shots but not eye gouges. See if their WC stacks up as a self-defense tool. If they can't own you with it, then there's no evidence that it's any good for the street, either.
     
  6. SamuelDeath

    SamuelDeath White Belt

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    The sparring is pretty regulated.

    I doubt they would just let us have at it like that.


    I have also heard about that story, I think on here. where ten of china's top wing chun practitioners went up against some Thai boxers and all but 9 got stomped in the first round.
     
  7. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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    Muay Thai is brutal. That is can be called a sport does not diminish its effectiveness. Of all the striking MAs I respect MT the most - very closely followed by boxing (not a MA, I know...).

    Any MA can be applied to SD. The stronger/better trained a fighter you are - the better you will be in a SD scenario as long as you remain conscious of your goal in a SD situation.

    Your goal in a SD scenario is to disable, disengage & get the [email protected]&* out of there - not stay & trade blows/try and defeat an opponent. It is not a rules-driven situation - anything can happen so the DISadvantage of being well trained is to automatically slip into an "I'm gonna box this guy" mentality where he might be thinking "I'm gonna stab this guy".

    I'll always back the better trained fighter with the most "real life" sparring experience, rather than the one with theoretical or non-resistive drills trained one-dimensionally outside of the "heat of combat'.

    To me, this means MT.



    But then, what the f*&^ do I know - I'm a judoka....:D
     
  8. Placebo_

    Placebo_ Yellow Belt

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    MT is a great explosive art. You will be dangerous if you become proficient in it, but make sure you have some ground game as well.
     
  9. SamuelDeath

    SamuelDeath White Belt

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    I was going to look into some BJJ this summer. And still train in MT 3-4 times a week.

    My school also offers a 10 week ground defense program. I think it is heavily influenced with that Sambo (the russian wrestling stuff).
     
  10. Gregster

    Gregster Black Belt

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    I've scarcely met a single person who's trained who is wholly unbiased about their respective style.

    If his personal experience, observation, attitudes, and opinions lead him to believe Wing Chun trumps Muay Thai, then that's what he's going to think, and there's likely little that can be done. And at the end of the day, it's just his opinion-- and we all know what opinions can be likened to.

    I used to train TKD and Hapkido (among others). I believe that taken together and mixed with the modicum of boxing training I've had, that they're viable and effective systems. My experience in the couple of scraps I've had in the past bears this out. My instructors' voluminous experience years ago as a bouncer does to, as do the experiences of guys I've trained with. But my opinion is my opinion; go ahead and start a "Is TKD Effective For The Street?" thread and then watch as it turns into a 20-page shower of shit about how worthless and ineffective TKD is, how it's a sport and nothing more, about all the silly and stupid shit that TKD fighters do in fights, and all sorts of other apparently unassailable truths and hard, cold facts which in no way square with *my* experience and observations. And we all think we're right.

    Meanwhile, my previous opinions about the relative strengths of TKD have, in the past, been tempered and changed by going up against guys skilled in other disciplines. If you've never cross-trained, the chance that you'll have a more honest appraisal of your style is lessened.

    In fact, if your instructor is basing his opinion of Muay Thai based purely on the sporting aspect, it's not surprising he might think it's only a sport...especially since it is a huge sport with millions of fanatical fans worldwide.

    I've not trained Muay Thai, but from what I've seen and what I know of it, I think it'd be highly effective for self defense. Bruce Lee, one of the greatest martial artists of recent times, was a seasoned veteran of scores of brawls all throughout his youth in Hong Kong up until near the time of his death, and he practiced Wing Chun and retained it as the basis for Jeet Kun Do (it's worth noting that Lee was no slavish disiciple of tradition and was a vocal critic of traditional martial arts).

    If your training is practical, sensible, and sufficiently rigorous you should be able to defend yourself ably with anything you learn. If you find you prefer Muay Thai to Wing Chun, then accept your instructors opinions as just that-- their opinions-- and stick to Muay Thai. If Wing Chun works best for you, and you can avail yourselves of top-notch Wing Chun instruction, go with that. Take what you're told with a grain of salt, be open to opinions, and find your own path.
     
  11. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    I think it goes without saying that Muay Thai would be effective for self defense. Anything where you are regularly engaging in vigorous exercise would be effective.

    It seems to me that fighting is half attitude anyway. I've known good tournament fighters who have gotten their clock cleaned because they were too niave to realize they needed to watch out for the sucker punch. I've also known guys from the same school, who weren't as good but were just assholes, get into tons of street fights and win every time.

    You guys seem to want absolute answers. A hierarchy, or formula you can apply when it comes to styles. It isn't that simple...
     
  12. Jaxx

    Jaxx Green Belt

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    Thats the problem with the 'deadly' TMA styles, they never pressure test their better strikes in a controlled enviroment. What is the point of learning bill jee in Wing Chun if you are never going to use it?

    MT and Boxing fight like they train, hence they win fights.
     
  13. Jaxx

    Jaxx Green Belt

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    That Sambo is fucking awesome, make sure you get along to that program.
     
  14. Tone C

    Tone C Silver Belt

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    Opinions are like arseholes m8,everyone has got one...MT is a fantastic stand up art,don't let them convince you otherwise,you are training in a contact art(which generally wc/wt/vt.isnt ) are training in impact on pads etc covering a lot of the ranges required in a fight.Yes wt does have a lot to offer but so too does mt,just mix it up with some groundgame and takedowns and if you are interested in it for self defense pick up a couple of relevant books (geoff thompson/macyoung/quinn etc).That should set you in good standing.
     
  15. Zoti

    Zoti Brown Belt

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    I teach MT and when I explain things to my students I will also show them how ring smart can also work in the street. Things like getting a guy against a car or a wall so there is no escape backwards which is exactly what you do in the ring. You try to push the guy to the ropes.
    I show escape from a bear hug in the clinch and how to get to a superior position (this is one of my personal favorites) by getting on the opponents side and sticking your forehead under the side of their jaw. I show clinch into a stand up head and arm choke.

    There is a lot of stuff that you can use on the street. Hell, one good round house kick will scare most would be aggressors. Most people don't know shit and when they hear your a MA they back off.

    At the end though I always tell them that in a bad situation they should just kick the guy in the nuts.
     
  16. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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    Sambo is good stuff. Only they dont allow chokes but DO allow leg submissions and they train with a gi - unless you are referring to combat sambo which is just insane - allowing striking & everything - more like MMA.

    If I had a decent sambo club anywhere nearby I would take it.
     
  17. -V-MuayThai-V-

    -V-MuayThai-V- Banned Banned

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    It's impossible to find good sambo in the US outside of New York City. I met a guy that teaches it for free but I gotta drive pretty far and he's at the lowest level certified to teach. I wish someone would just sponsor a VISA for a hardcore Combat Sambo expert from Russia to come down and teach the art.

    The guy that teaches it for free was telling me about how Sambo isn't as popular in MMA because of politics in the sport. I guess some shit went down in the regulating organizations of Sambo in the early 90's (during the rise of MMA) and no good Sambo fighters were sent to represent their style in the early UFC's. I wonder how MMA would've been different if UFC 1 had a legit Sambo practicioner to counter Royce Gracie's ground game. Sorry to go off-topic, but when I start writing I keep going and I didn't feel like starting a new thread.
     
  18. Jaxx

    Jaxx Green Belt

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    Common misconception, Sambo guys can choke and do it well. Only in comps are they not allowed.
     
  19. ACR4V3N

    ACR4V3N Blue Belt

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    MT in my opinion is probably one of the better Arts/Sport for self-defense. It seems like WC and most other Chinese arts focus on a certain flow, which only really works when you're fighting another of the same style. If you get good at MT and learn how to just punch some one in the face good and hard twice and fallow up with a good round house to the head, I bet no one will mess with you. If you think about it sporting styles (not sure what to call them but boxing and mt etc...) are more practical and efficient for hitting people because that's what you do all the time, hit people.
    If in doubt put your toe in some punks ear and see how much more fight he has in him.
     
  20. SamuelDeath

    SamuelDeath White Belt

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    My kun kru (and owner of the gym) is in the good graces of master toddy and several other highly respected wing-chun head hancho's.

    I should asume the guy who does the sambo is compitent or else he wouldnt let him teach his students.
     

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