A Basic Study of Angles and Good Footwork (Gif Heavy)

[Phantomill2k2k6]

could you please elaborate on his kicking technique that you dont like? Never done TKD but spent some time with MT in the past. you'll often find different kicking techniques. Some work better for others than they may for you. It depends.[/QUOTE]

With great pleasure:

First he sell the kick by the way he lock his arm you can tell he isn't gonna punch , his kick shown on gif is far too wide , the kicking leg is supposed to retract faster, when you launch a combo your not supposed to start with a kick , a good wrestler could easily exploit those, well there is so many things. Like i said it's more he capitalized on lauzon mistake of raising the wrong leg, good for mma bad for karate /tkd high level.

 

[shpboris]

I seen hobbyist amateur and pros go on auto pilot when their coach or training partner is pointing out an issue as it pertains to spacing..angles...timing..movement..setups..stance..etc.

) I have paid attention to it as well ) If it is not particular combination or counter - nobody cares

But in my observation, some people who actually fight at a pretty advanced level, don't have a knowledge of average sherdog poster. More so, a lot of coaches fall into the same category.

It seems to me that advanced guys just pick things naturally from their sparring partners, interclubs, during ammy competitions etc ... Kind of, sometimes I get a feeling that the more advanced a fighter is - the less he knows ... And vise versa

 

[jerellem]

Excellent responses fellas. Thanks!

 

[ssullivan80]

But in my observation, some people who actually fight at a pretty advanced level, don't have a knowledge of average sherdog poster. More so, a lot of coaches fall into the same category.

It seems to me that advanced guys just pick things naturally from their sparring partners, interclubs, during ammy competitions etc ... Kind of, sometimes I get a feeling that the more advanced a fighter is - the less he knows ... And vise versa

Ya gotta remember, there is a difference between possessing the knowledge and being able to articulate that knowledge to someone else. There's a reason that the best fighters are rarely the best trainers. It's not that they don't have the knowledge, they just don't know how to pass that knowledge on by articulating/explaining it to someone.

That's also what separates the coaches/trainers that are considered "elite", from the masses. It's their ability to pass that knowledge on. Being able to disseminate and articulate that knowledge is just one part of what makes a trainer "elite", the toughest part is how to take those concepts and train a guy without the knowledge to practically apply them.

 

[Discipulus]

Ya gotta remember, there is a difference between possessing the knowledge and being able to articulate that knowledge to someone else. There's a reason that the best fighters are rarely the best trainers. It's not that they don't have the knowledge, they just don't know how to pass that knowledge on by articulating/explaining it to someone.

That's also what separates the coaches/trainers that are considered "elite", from the masses. It's their ability to pass that knowledge on. Being able to disseminate and articulate that knowledge is just one part of what makes a trainer "elite", the toughest part is how to take those concepts and train a guy without the knowledge to practically apply them.

I've been thinking that your average great fighter (I know that sounds paradoxical) doesn't think so much as feels what to do in the ring. In other words, he "knows" what to do at a given moment without really consciously knowing it.

Of course you have guys like Floyd, B-hop, and Ward who are exceptions. They clearly logically understand everything they do and why they do it. But most top fighters seem to me to be doers rather than thinkers, while the best coaches are almost always very potent thinkers. Some of them were great fighters, many of them weren't, but almost all of them are thinkers.

 

[ssullivan80]

I've been thinking that your average great fighter (I know that sounds paradoxical) doesn't think so much as feels what to do in the ring. In other words, he "knows" what to do at a given moment without really consciously knowing it.

Of course you have guys like Floyd, B-hop, and Ward who are exceptions. They clearly logically understand everything they do and why they do it. But most top fighters seem to me to be doers rather than thinkers, while the best coaches are almost always very potent thinkers. Some of them were great fighters, many of them weren't, but almost all of them are thinkers.

IMO, that's what a great trainer seeks to teach a fighter to do. What makes a trainer great isn't that he teaches a fighter to think necessarily, he teaches them to do without thinking! In truth, a fighter that overthinks is often the toughest to train...... vs. a fighter that simply learns by developing muscle memory (habits) and doesn't over analyze is probably going to progress much faster.

I don't think that training a fighter to conceptually understand the knowledge is necessary (at least in that fighters infancy). The goal is simply to use that knowledge as the trainer to instill habitual tendencies in the fighter. Once the habits are formed and they no longer have to think, they simply do, then they are at a stage that they can begin learning the knowledge. The habits have to be created first, then the knowledge will follow. Just my opinion.....

 

[a guy]

could you please elaborate on his kicking technique that you dont like? Never done TKD but spent some time with MT in the past. you'll often find different kicking techniques. Some work better for others than they may for you. It depends.

With great pleasure:

First he sell the kick by the way he lock his arm you can tell he isn't gonna punch , his kick shown on gif is far too wide , the kicking leg is supposed to retract faster, when you launch a combo your not supposed to start with a kick , a good wrestler could easily exploit those, well there is so many things. Like i said it's more he capitalized on lauzon mistake of raising the wrong leg, good for mma bad for karate /tkd high level.[/QUOTE]

Apparently you can't tell he's not gonna punch, since all his opponents react as if he is. Doesn't matter how fast you retract a kick that just killed somebody. He's fought good wrestlers and they only exploit it when he throws jumping spinning shit. He's the most dangerous kicker in the sport right now. He's got supernatural hips, good set ups and clean technique. Maybe not perfect, but lets acknowledge that he's great.

 

[Jhf884]

IMO, that's what a great trainer seeks to teach a fighter to do. What makes a trainer great isn't that he teaches a fighter to think necessarily, he teaches them to do without thinking! In truth, a fighter that overthinks is often the toughest to train...... vs. a fighter that simply learns by developing muscle memory (habits) and doesn't over analyze is probably going to progress much faster.

I don't think that training a fighter to conceptually understand the knowledge is necessary (at least in that fighters infancy). The goal is simply to use that knowledge as the trainer to instill habitual tendencies in the fighter. Once the habits are formed and they no longer have to think, they simply do, then they are at a stage that they can begin learning the knowledge. The habits have to be created first, then the knowledge will follow. Just my opinion.....

The thing is Floyd, Bernard, Ward--they are thinkers but they are also doers too. If you are thinking through everything you will get crushed in the ring. Those guys have their technique to the point where they don't have to devote any conscious attention to it, and can devote all their thought to strategies and tactics. (Of course, they think about technique while training it, but not while DOING it.)

So it seems to me at least.

Edit: Meant to be a reply to Discipulus, oh well.

 

[a guy]

Ya gotta remember, there is a difference between possessing the knowledge and being able to articulate that knowledge to someone else. There's a reason that the best fighters are rarely the best trainers. It's not that they don't have the knowledge, they just don't know how to pass that knowledge on by articulating/explaining it to someone.

That's also what separates the coaches/trainers that are considered "elite", from the masses. It's their ability to pass that knowledge on. Being able to disseminate and articulate that knowledge is just one part of what makes a trainer "elite", the toughest part is how to take those concepts and train a guy without the knowledge to practically apply them.

Great post. You also need to be able to structure a system of exercises, drills, sparring, etc to make sure the guy develops well. If a coach has all the knowledge in the world and can articulate it all but can't organize and prioritize that information then the teaching will be much less effective.

 

[Discipulus]

The thing is Floyd, Bernard, Ward--they are thinkers but they are also doers too. If you are thinking through everything you will get crushed in the ring. Those guys have their technique to the point where they don't have to devote any conscious attention to it, and can devote all their thought to strategies and tactics. (Of course, they think about technique while training it, but not while DOING it.)

So it seems to me at least.

Edit: Meant to be a reply to Discipulus, oh well.

They're thinkers who train like doers. That seems to be the key. Each of them is able to focus on strategy on one level while reacting instinctively. Ward, Hopkins, and Mayweather are all well known for how relentlessly they drill. Endless, mindless repetition with perfect technique. That frees up their brains to plan while their bodies just fight.

 

[ssullivan80]

They're thinkers who train like doers. That seems to be the key. Each of them is able to focus on strategy on one level while reacting instinctively. Ward, Hopkins, and Mayweather are all well known for how relentlessly they drill. Endless, mindless repetition with perfect technique. That frees up their brains to plan while their bodies just fight.

Exactly! Well said. Instinctive action/reaction is superior to calculated action/reaction in fighting, the finite amount of time that encounters in the ring take place and the infinite number of variables that exists within that short period of time don't always allow for calculating every action/reaction. Instinctive reactions are what allows a fighter the time (relaxed, clear thinking) to make calculated reactions, even then they have to be able to adapt instinctively to all the variables. That's the reason fighters that rely solely on a "gameplan", no matter how good they are will eventually lose to a fighter who can adapt in the ring......... No matter how good the "plan" is, absent the ability to adapt no "plan" is going to guarantee success.

 

[shpboris]

Ya gotta remember, there is a difference between possessing the knowledge and being able to articulate that knowledge to someone else. There's a reason that the best fighters are rarely the best trainers. It's not that they don't have the knowledge, they just don't know how to pass that knowledge on by articulating/explaining it to someone.

That's also what separates the coaches/trainers that are considered "elite", from the masses. It's their ability to pass that knowledge on. Being able to disseminate and articulate that knowledge is just one part of what makes a trainer "elite", the toughest part is how to take those concepts and train a guy without the knowledge to practically apply them.

I see what you are saying.... But I knew guys who had pretty good results at amateur boxing, and they would not know half of the things that are mentioned at this forum. Not that they could not teach it or explain it - they just would not know that.

If you ask average poster here why the jab is important (for example), you will get a lot of reasons. Some of those advanced guys know that without jab nothing works and that is fucking it Best case - they would know that it sets up power punches and controls distance.

Despite all of that, they box beautifully


Guys like Ward, Hopkins or Donaire are definitely different judging by their interviews. They clearly understand what and why they do.

 

[Babba]

I see what you are saying.... But I knew guys who had pretty good results at amateur boxing, and they would not know half of the things that are mentioned at this forum. Not that they could not teach it or explain it - they just would not know that.

If you ask average poster here why the jab is important (for example), you will get a lot of reasons. Some of those advanced guys know that without jab nothing works and that is fucking it Best case - they would know that it sets up power punches and controls distance.

Despite all of that, they box beautifully


Guys like Ward, Hopkins or Donaire are definitely different judging by their interviews. They clearly understand what and why they do.

yep, i know a ton of guys with 50-150 fights who couldnt explain shit compared to some ppl here and not even close in knowledge, for real too. myself i go over 20 fights and i still cant articulate anything in boxing - i know how to show in real life though. lol :icon_sad:

 

[WillW]

Yes Babba and Borris are onto something. I know guys who are excellent boxers who cant explain shit. The just do it. While others can really explain it. Not everyone can be a coach.

nice call on Donaire as well. he belongs in that discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBAfxcrj3s

With great pleasure:

First he sell the kick by the way he lock his arm you can tell he isn't gonna punch , his kick shown on gif is far too wide , the kicking leg is supposed to retract faster, when you launch a combo your not supposed to start with a kick , a good wrestler could easily exploit those, well there is so many things. Like i said it's more he capitalized on lauzon mistake of raising the wrong leg, good for mma bad for karate /tkd high level.

[/QUOTE]

He is good at getting a reaction he wants, setting up his kicks to land. He got Lauzon to go for a parry and castillo to slip. both leave them exposed for the headkick.

You want to set up you kicks well, behind punches is a good way. but there is no golden, rule as long as you doing things intelligently. His opponents thought he was going to punch, but he kicked. He isnt mindlessly swinging kicks by themselves or doing cookie cutter kickboxing combo's we often see. But I will take another look at his mechanics, you may be onto something.

Bending at the waist isn't the issue, it's not incorporating the shift in weight (hips) when bending at the waist that get's guys out of position...... that's what causes a guys head to get outside of his feet. Head outside of edges of feet, over front foot, behind rear heel = stuck out of position, which is what leaves a guy compromised both offensively and defensively.

In short, bending at the waist is problematic if it's done as an isolated movement and not predicated by a shift in weight (hips and knees as you describe).

This is interesting. Have to test for myself, If I could even bend my back in that manner.

 

[ssullivan80]

yep, i know a ton of guys with 50-150 fights who couldnt explain shit compared to some ppl here and not even close in knowledge, for real too. myself i go over 20 fights and i still cant articulate anything in boxing - i know how to show in real life though. lol :icon_sad:

Of course, there's a big difference in being a student and a practitioner. Same reason MBA professors teach fortune 500 company CEO's....Technical understanding and technique is just one aspect of being a fighter, but all the technical knowledge ain't for shit if you don't "have fight in you"....... Perfect and flawless technique can be accomplished by a reasonably athletic guy with enough practice and repetition.... ya know, those guys who you watch on pads and bags that look spectacular...... but put them in the ring, come upside their head once and they fall apart. Thing is, most guys who have the ability to really analyze and think about all the "finite" detail in being a fighter, well, to be honest they are probably too fuckin smart to actually risk getting in their and getting the dog shit beat out of them. Some guys are just "cut from that cloth", some aren't. Either way, at the elite level or against good opposition, the nuances of technique and technically refined skills can make a big difference in the longevity of a fighters career and the consistency of their performances. Regardless, skill and technique aside, ya got to want to be a fighter and some guys simply want it more and are willing to pay the price that others aren't!

To sum it up: "The will must be greater than the skill" - Ali

 

[devante]

Of course, there's a big difference in being a student and a practitioner. Same reason MBA professors teach fortune 500 company CEO's....Technical understanding and technique is just one aspect of being a fighter, but all the technical knowledge ain't for shit if you don't "have fight in you"....... Perfect and flawless technique can be accomplished by a reasonably athletic guy with enough practice and repetition.... ya know, those guys who you watch on pads and bags that look spectacular...... but put them in the ring, come upside their head once and they fall apart. Thing is, most guys who have the ability to really analyze and think about all the "finite" detail in being a fighter, well, to be honest they are probably too fuckin smart to actually risk getting in their and getting the dog shit beat out of them. Some guys are just "cut from that cloth", some aren't. Either way, at the elite level or against good opposition, the nuances of technique and technically refined skills can make a big difference in the longevity of a fighters career and the consistency of their performances. Regardless, skill and technique aside, ya got to want to be a fighter and some guys simply want it more and are willing to pay the price that others aren't!

To sum it up: "The will must be greater than the skill" - Ali

A boxing coach I knew long ago said something to that effect...as he said so many guys harp on tech and lack of awareness or ring IQ; an those things are important, but alot of guys have those qualities but those guys can't fight. An above all things if you have a guy who doesn't have that fight in them all the technique and ability in the world wont save them when it gets thick; an sometimes people forget the value of being able to fight. Looking good on pads..bag and shadowboxing is one thing, being able to fight is another thing..being willing to fight is different.

He likened it to guys in NBA or NFL drafts who have great measurables...can drill great; nut can't do shit in a game... drills...skills are important..but not more important than the will to fight..more importantly the will to fight back.

He said u see it in pros...in ammys ...in hobbyist...on the street some guys can't and wont fight..not when they don't have huge advantages in skill or ability etc. They essentially break when faced with adversity..they can't fight back..

Teddy Atlas always says lots of guys can fight...very few can fight back.. and a hof boxers once told his kids I can teach you how to box...I can't teach u to fight..that has to be in u...that can't be taught.

Floyd bhops Ward as tech slick and masterful as those guys are they can fight and when it gets tough they can fight back...same goes for lesser guys (technically) like Martinez...Bradley.

 

[shpboris]

A boxing coach I knew long ago said something to that effect...as he said so many guys harp on tech and lack of awareness or ring IQ; an those things are important, but alot of guys have those qualities but those guys can't fight. An above all things if you have a guy who doesn't have that fight in them all the technique and ability in the world wont save them when it gets thick; an sometimes people forget the value of being able to fight. Looking good on pads..bag and shadowboxing is one thing, being able to fight is another thing..being willing to fight is different.

He likened it to guys in NBA or NFL drafts who have great measurables...can drill great; nut can't do shit in a game... drills...skills are important..but not more important than the will to fight..more importantly the will to fight back.

He said u see it in pros...in ammys ...in hobbyist...on the street some guys can't and wont fight..not when they don't have huge advantages in skill or ability etc. They essentially break when faced with adversity..they can't fight back..

Teddy Atlas always says lots of guys can fight...very few can fight back.. and a hof boxers once told his kids I can teach you how to box...I can't teach u to fight..that has to be in u...that can't be taught.

Floyd bhops Ward as tech slick and masterful as those guys are they can fight and when it gets tough they can fight back...same goes for lesser guys (technically) like Martinez...Bradley.

I absolutely agree with that !

But interesting thing is that when somebody say - "this guy is natuaral fighter", it is not only his mentality. It is also his athletic gift.

Sometimes you see guys who pick up things really quickly. After few months of training they already look like boxers. Still beginners, but boxers - have some coordination, fluidity , rhythm etc... While others will train years, invest much more and all they have is some separate techniques from boxing. Here and there they can parry a punch, throw jab or something - but this doesn't even look like boxing.

Do you guys really think that JT knew the nuances of correct weight distribution while throwing certain punches and moving 45^ degrees to the right of his centerline ? ))

And still look at his boxing - it is a fucking Picasso right there !

 

[devante]

I absolutely agree with that !

But interesting thing is that when somebody say - "this guy is natuaral fighter", it is not only his mentality. It is also his athletic gift.

Sometimes you see guys who pick up things really quickly. After few months of training they already look like boxers. Still beginners, but boxers - have some coordination, fluidity , rhythm etc... While others will train years, invest much more and all they have is some separate techniques from boxing. Here and there they can parry a punch, throw jab or something - but this doesn't even look like boxing.

Do you guys really think that JT new the nuances of correct weight distribution while throwing certain punches and moving 45^ degrees to the right of his centerline ? ))

And still look at his boxing - it is a fucking Picasso right there !

Agree.... whether its actual physical ability or mental ability some guys can pick up nd process things better than others, regardless of hardwork...study some guys just don't have it. Not everyone can physically do what lebron james does...not everyone can read and react as quickly as peyton manning...not everyone can run like micheal vick...etc etc.

In my opinion people forget that those things can impact how you fight...how well u fight and if you can/should fight at all...

I have seen guys who have really dedicated themselves to training things whether it be boxing wrestling muay thai tkd judo and they just aren't very good..they can hold their own with hobbyist...they cn perform certain tech..apply certain strategies..but all in all they aren't good. They obviously train...and are much bettr than they were...their just not as good as their time in says they should be.

Their are people who have the mentality ..but lack ability...ability ....but lack mentality..
To be the best u have to have a bit of both...to get better u don't ...to get better faster or to make up for holes in your game u have to have ability.

 

[Phlog]

I've read some stuff in sports psychology which discussed how natural atheletes make bad trainers because they have rarely had to pay a lot of attention to how they do things. Their skills are built on layer and layer of miniscule improvements based on experience.

When faced with a person that has to work hard at something to move forward they have nothing in there skill set to offer.

The best trainers are those with experience of the sport, who had to work harder and figure out methods which allow them to compete a bit with the naturals.

Like, if I wanted to learn about closing distance, I'd prefer to bend the ear of Tyson rather than Lewis.

Most people that are smart enough to become the truly great atheletes like mayweather don't concentrate upon sport because their are easier ways to succeed if your smart. That dude was smart, had a decent body but mainly had a real good incentive to work real fucking hard at becoming the best. If you asked him how to be smart or insightful though he'd likely have nothing for you.

 

[ssullivan80]

Do you guys really think that JT new the nuances of correct weight distribution while throwing certain punches and moving 45^ degrees to the right of his centerline ? ))

And still look at his boxing - it is a fucking Picasso right there !

Absolutely, I think he understood the nuances 100%. I'd say the same about some of the others mentioned in this thread, Floyd, B-hop, Ward..... But just like any athletic endeavor, these guys mentioned have something special, they got a gift and no matter how athletically inclined or capable some fighters are...... they'll never be capable of being as good as them..... Just like a lot of B-ball players understand all the nuances of the fade away jump shot, they aren't going to be MJ.... and running backs know the nuances of getting down field, they aren't going to do it as well as Adrian Petersen. Some guys are just on a different planet, they aren't the rule but the exception. That's why we have "hall of fames"!