437 lbs to 250 - low carb

[Go6 CaNN]

Somehow managed to gain 28 lbs (of water?) from a 4 day vacation with the family. I eat a lot of crap. Focusing on cutting that now. 10 lbs down in 4 days, pretty slow considering im doing alternate day fasting, heavy lifting, sprints etc. I am also experimenting with diuretics to try to reduce post-exercise related water retention and overall cheat meal related bloat - who knows if it will work but worth an experiment.

Have another 4 day holiday coming up the beginning of next month :/

Sounds like you should just stick to your diet on those four days tbh; Either that or calorie count and never let yourself go above 2k. Some hotels have weight rooms if that's an option you could do some heavy really cardio at night. (This might also prove to be a good place to test how well you preform on/off carbs empirically.)

I really wonder why your body is fighting back so strongly at this weight if you're truly no where near lean. Have you been pretty strict when it comes to calorie counting? Crazy to think that anyone can gain 28 pounds in four days even if you were eating 10k a day. I think you might have to approach some foods like a drug addict might approach their drug of choice and just try to avoid it 100% of the time at least until you're where you want to be.

Stay strong, you've been an inspiration.

 

[Nemesis48]

Sounds like you should just stick to your diet on those four days tbh; Either that or calorie count and never let yourself go above 2k. Some hotels have weight rooms if that's an option you could do some heavy really cardio at night. (This might also prove to be a good place to test how well you preform on/off carbs empirically.)

I really wonder why your body is fighting back so strongly at this weight if you're truly no where near lean. Have you been pretty strict when it comes to calorie counting? Crazy to think that anyone can gain 28 pounds in four days even if you were eating 10k a day. I think you might have to approach some foods like a drug addict might approach their drug of choice and just try to avoid it 100% of the time at least until you're where you want to be.

Stay strong, you've been an inspiration.

I don't worry about such things on vacation. If i'm eating like a saint 95% of the time, which I do, then I don't really care about a week or less. But it does highlight how horrible my genetics and morphology is that I can be set back essentially 2 months by a few days of eating. On paper this should be attributable to a glycogen refeed, in which all the extra sugar/water is bonding to the muscle, but it takes weeks to come off, even if I do crazy amounts of cardio, cut meals, lift heavy etc. It's also real weight.. whether its 28 lbs of water or 28 lbs of fat makes little difference on gravity. I also look extremely puffy when its there.

it doesn't help matters that i'm often stressed out because i absolutely hate my job. I know that stress signals cortisol to store abdominal fat and to retain water, I have made efforts to introduce regular meditation etc but it's still an ongoing struggle. My most effective form of unwinding are long hikes I do on the weekends, but I obviously can't do that during the week when I need to deal with being in a windowless office 10 hours a day and dealing with staggering levels of incompetence and boredom.

I have no cheats planned between august 5 and thanksgiving, so should be able to cut down. I really want to be at around 205 as my resting weight, fluctuating within 10 lbs. Right now i'm at 235 - but I know that at least 10 lbs of that is water, and as much as 20. It's very annoying but we can't change the genetic cards we've been dealt. I also know that I retain a substantial amount of water while lifting - and I got to my low weight of 220 because I stopped lifting for 1.5 months and saw about 10 lbs fly off. If I were to stop lifting right now, i'd probably drop down to 210 pretty quickly. But I like strength.

One bonus of cheating is that it allows me to set new PRs in the gym, so i've moved up some of my lifts and am especially proud of my 300 lb deadlift

 

[Cr3do]

Hey Nemesis48,

Just wondering what you think of the Bulletproof diet (upgraded paleo)?

The Bulletproof coffee sounds really interesting, I can wait to try it!

 

[Nemesis48]

Hey Nemesis48,

Just wondering what you think of the Bulletproof diet (upgraded paleo)?

The Bulletproof coffee sounds really interesting, I can wait to try it!

It's a lot of marketing fluff. There is nothing unique about it, it's just a way for some online marketing asshole to sell coffee.

No "named" diet makes sense. Just go off of nutritional principals.

 

[Nemesis48]

Still bloated up about 15 lbs from my lowest weight and stuck here since late June (fluctuating from high 220s to high 230s). 3 mini vacations of a few days each cause me to gain about 20 lbs of water each time, which takes 2-3 weeks to come off. Takes so long mainly because i'm getting gains in the gym, which I know causes me to stall. It stops me from shedding water associated with cheats from weeks prior. I don't really care, I'm enjoying lifting heavy in the gym and increasing my vascularity - people keep commenting how much more lean i look. I do want to get down to 205 though. I have been trying alternate day fasting but it's been trying. My hunger level has increased since I started going real hard in the gym but i'm afraid to eat much more than I already am, as I still want to lose another 15-20 lbs of FAT.

My new PRs (3x5 besides DL which is 1x5) in the gym:

squat: 265
deadlift: 315
bench: 115
PC: 115
row: 130 (just started a month ago)
pulldown: 110 (just started a month ago)
leg raises: 3x10
run: 20 minutes

I am currently training to enter federal law enforcement which includes a pushup test. I am trying my best to work on my dreaded chest strength. Every non-gym day is being supplemented with half or full pushups.

My fitness goals:
Complete pullups unassisted
Learn to ride a bike and go on a 10 mile ride (sounds hilarious but I grew up in the ghetto)
30 pushups in 60 seconds
Complete dips unassisted

All of those except the bike will probably be dependent on my overall weight decreasing. I have thought about taking a short break from lifting to shed water but I have done that in the past with the intent of taking a 2 week break and wound up taking 1.5 month off and losing strength. I really want to keep my lifting schedule AS IS.

 

[Nemesis48]

OP updated with pics.

 

[Tension]

update?

 

[Nemesis48]

update?

Some challenges. Open to feedback.

Still up 15 lbs from my dehydrated lowest (220) - today's weighin was 235. Not sure what my actual weight is, it takes forever for cheat meal weight to come off nowadays (3 weeks+), about a week and a half ago I was 251. Probably somewhere around 225-230. The last 3 months have been going in the wrong direction if you count the scale, although my activity level and fitness level have increased. I've been eating more (clean) and lifting heavy and regularly. I have much better definition, massively more strength and vascularity.

I really want to get down to 205 but I don't see anyway of doing that without going to less than 1800 calories a day and stopping lifting. I've been a lot more content eating about 500 more calories a day - averaging about 2000-2500, but I guess i'm gaining this way. I may have fried my metabolism of 2 years of very low calorie and long fasts, who knows. I don't really care as everyone keeps telling me how I look thinner/healthier and I feel healthier. Still, I want to get down to 200ish and still have a lot of fat. I also wonder how much I can't lose because it's just extra skin - I should probably get composed. People could argue that i'm gaining muscle, which I surely am, but it still doesn't matter -I should be losing overall weight (fat). Pretty aggravating and demoralizing.

For the past 3 months i've also been experimenting with different IF schedules and failed completely. I tried doing alternate day fasting, longer fasts, no fasting etc. I currently don't do IF at all - and that's probably an issue, as I was losing the most fat while doing daily 18/6 fasts. That proved to be challenging ever since I started this job as I wake up at 6 and would have my first meal at 530 PM and stop eating at around 7... so that was virtually a 22/2, brutal. Recently i've just been eating when I wake up, then eating when I get home, which isn't a fast at all. Need to go back to 18/6 or more.

A typical example day:
0600: 4 eggs, 2 pieces of cheese, 4 pieces of bacon
1720: a snack, usually 200ish calories of pork rinds, sausage, sour cream, greek yogurt etc
1745: 4 ribs (dry rub), 10 ounces of spinach, 1 ounce sliced almonds, 4 tbsp blue cheese, 2 tbsp olive oil, 4 tbsp buffalo wing sauce (no carb), 4-5 tbsp of shredded Parmesan cheese.

Ill often swap out the spinach with avocado, green beans, celery etc and the meat with whatever: salmon, chicken, beef etc.
1830 before or after training: 4 tbsp heavy cream, 6 cups of coffee, 2 scoops isopure zero carb whey
2015 (alternating days): Resistance training. 18 ounce zero carb/calorie energy drink.

Big differences from my previous diet? +2 bacon, + snack, slightly less calories on main meal, +2 tbsp heavy cream, +2 scoops of whey

99% of the people on this forum would probably laugh that it's possible to plateau or gain weight on such a diet, especially considering I train at least 3 days a week for at least 2.5 hours per session, but I got dem genetics.

 

[Obscure Terror]

I would definitely get composition done. We need to know your lean mass.

For example, at 205lbs you might still be 15-20% bodyfat. Assigning a scale number to things is no longer suitable now you're lifting - you need to track muscle building, and that can only be ascertained with composition analysis.

I still think you need to eat more carbs now you're lifting. Maybe if it's just some rice or sweet potato after the weights or some oatmeal.

Carbs help you recover and build quality mass. Extra muscle = higher calories burned all the time.

Your drop in overall weight probably stripped a lot of your muscle mass from under that 437lb frame along with the fat. Now it's time to put some quality tissue on, enjoy clean food and get your test levels up with lifting. This will only help fat burning.

Have you had your testosterone levels checked?

 

[Nemesis48]

I would definitely get composition done. We need to know your lean mass.

For example, at 205lbs you might still be 15-20% bodyfat. Assigning a scale number to things is no longer suitable now you're lifting - you need to track muscle building, and that can only be ascertained with composition analysis.

I still think you need to eat more carbs now you're lifting. Maybe if it's just some rice or sweet potato after the weights or some oatmeal.

Carbs help you recover and build quality mass. Extra muscle = higher calories burned all the time.

Your drop in overall weight probably stripped a lot of your muscle mass from under that 437lb frame along with the fat. Now it's time to put some quality tissue on, enjoy clean food and get your test levels up with lifting. This will only help fat burning.

Have you had your testosterone levels checked?

Thanks for the response!

I 100% agree about the inaccuracy of scale numbers, but I shouldn't be this heavy no matter what - even if I was packing on muscle. I still have some fat (visceral and thigh) and I want it gone.

I agree with you regarding composition analysis and i'm looking into that right now.

I can't eat carbs to any large amount or it goes right to my stomach. My daily carb intake is 10-50 grams, and its mostly fibrous vegetables, nuts and some dairy sugars (greek yogurt etc). I can predict with high accuracy how much weight I will gain from eating a carb heavy meal. I also feel like shit on carbs.

I have not had my T level checked as I have no symptoms of low T. I have a retarded amount of energy, sexual drive etc. I guess its worth testing if it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Dammit man. It's time to start eating some carbs. Keto can only take you so far, just look at Jimmy Moore for proof - he's followed the exact same path as you (massive weight loss followed by stalled weight loss, except for YEARS, and now he's even got mounting health problems that he keeps writing off).

I completely believe it's possible to plateau on this diet, and it's not genetics. It's your thyroid normalizing with your bodyweight normalizing, and now at a normal rate of function, it's being suppressed because you aren't getting any dietary carbohydrates (because normal weight people need carbs for their thyroid to work). Your leptin has normalized, this has impacted your TSH, and now you thyroid isn't at the elevated level of an obese 300-400 pounder like it used to be. And I'm not even going to touch on what keto does to the bone structure of people who aren't +350lbs, which is incredibly important and accounts for as much as 15% of BMR in some circumstances.

If you are truly interested in the n=1 experiments, try re-introducing carbohydrates into your diet over a 3-4 month period. Obviously whatever you are doing is not working, so it's time for a change. You will feel like shit for the first few weeks, and you will regain some weight (mostly water and glycogen) but give it a shot. Once your thyroid is back to trucking along, I think you'll find that you won't need insanely low caloric intake to lose weight. Don't let ideology get in the way of figuring what can work at this point.

Please please please please pretty pleeeeeease... with a cherry on top - eat some carbs. It doesn't have to be chocolate cake and cookies, it can just be fruit and potatoes... try and get at least 125g/day. It will make a world of difference.

 

[Nemesis48]

You're talking out your ass bud - you haven't seen my blood work so you have nothing to base those arguments on. You're quoting levels as if you have seen them.

The truth is all the classic body builders (the guys who trained at Venice Beach during the 1970s including Arnold) were low carb, although they did have a cheat day - that by itself is a refutation to your point.

One thing i did change over the past two years is I stopped having weekly cheat meals, so there might be some credence to your point. I'd like to go back to doing this but it seemed at one point, it was stalling me so much I just gave it up. I still give that advice to others who plateau. Tell them to do a long fast, and if that doesn't work, try a cheat meal. To be clear though: i haven't plateaued, I just had about 10 days of eating crap in the past 3 months due to vacations and its taking a long time to come off. My visible fatness has decreased (people telling me I look better, looser clothes etc), and my strength has increased as i've become very seriously into powerlifting. Lifting greatly lowers my rate of overall weight loss though - I suspect due to retained water. I have stopped lifting in the past and lost 10 lbs over the course of two weeks.

What is your point about bone mass? That my bones could account for a lot of my weight because of being so big at one point?

 

[SummerStriker]

What is your point about bone mass? That my bones could account for a lot of my weight because of being so big at one point?

Man, I hope that is true. That would be awesome.

 

[golvmopp]

You're talking out your ass bud - you haven't seen my blood work so you have nothing to base those arguments on. You're quoting levels as if you have seen them.

The truth is all the classic body builders (the guys who trained at Venice Beach during the 1970s including Arnold) were low carb, although they did have a cheat day - that by itself is a refutation to your point.

Hahahaha, shots fired!

 

[Seriously-Dead]

You're talking out your ass bud - you haven't seen my blood work so you have nothing to base those arguments on. You're quoting levels as if you have seen them.

Fasted blood work wouldn't even show it. T3 and leptin are transient hormones that change continually throughout the day so blood work wouldn't show anything significant. Less transient indicators like T4 and TSH would have little utility in figuring out how bioactive your thyroid is since they are not primary determinants of metabolism (T3 is). You'd have to do a bunch of pre/post-prandial readings to get any idea out of the blood work anyway. I say these things because I have some understanding some of the endocrinology of fasting, ketogenesis, and caloric restriction. And you'll see below who agrees with me.

The truth is all the classic body builders (the guys who trained at Venice Beach during the 1970s including Arnold) were low carb, although they did have a cheat day - that by itself is a refutation to your point.

A bodybuilder's version of low-carb is significantly different than your own. All these men were on steroids too, so even if they were ketogenic 100% of the time (but they weren't), you can't extrapolate any information from them. That is not being scientific at all, and you know that.

What is your point about bone mass? That my bones could account for a lot of my weight because of being so big at one point?

My point about bone mass is that you're going to cause bone atrophy if you keep this diet up longterm. Fat can only provide 40-80% of the energy that glucose does in bone because it gets metabolized slower (oxygen based, and lots of bone is hypoxic and requires glucose metabolism without oxygen) , and it acquires the maximum amount of energy through the combination of energy provided by both glucose and lipids. Ketogenesis has been well studied in epileptic patients, and it's been shown several times to cause disregulation of mineral balance in bone, reduction in osteocalcin, and lowering of BMD. I know a lot about bone, I worked for one of the best researchers in Canada on bone strength and dietary interventions this summer and learned a ton from her. Bone metabolism accounts for a significant percentage of BMR and bone strength, while markers of pro-metabolic bone activity are highly correlated to increases in BMR and glucose tolerance. This is a big problem, particularly in female athletes with eating disorders, as their BMR gets lowered in tandem with their bone mineral density (and they respond to feeding therapy in tandem as well). Exercising vigorously while not nourishing oneself can under some circumstances even aggravate the problem (sometimes not, depending on the nature of the disorder and training intensity).

Chances are, if you require 1800kcal to lose weight while weighing 225-250lbs and exercising regularly, you've got a suppressed metabolism - so there's a chance your bones are paying the price, but maybe they are still safe for now since they were so enlarged when you were severely overweight (in essence a ticking time bomb). And it's not genetic, because I doubt you needed that kind of deficit when you first started losing weight. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm not trying to pick on you, and I'm not trying to do this out of any ideology (yes, I think Keto is a good solution for some people - when it's applied as a temporary intervention, like how it's commonly studied in research). I just want to see you succeed and realize that every therapy has it's limits as therapy and not lifestyle...

I mean seriously man, just LOOK at Jimmy Moore. Is that your goal body? The man has had several UTIs in the last year (a sign of oxalate in the urine), has lost 6-7 teeth (indicator of poor bone metabolism), has near diabetic levels of fasting blood sugar, and still looks like crap even after years of insanely restrictive dieting.

But you're free to make up your own mind, just keep this quote from Dr. Atkins in mind when he originally concocted his diet:

 

[Nemesis48]

Your cannot compare what i'm doing to epileptic keto diet, they are prescribed virtually 0 grams of carbohydrate - I routinely fluctuate between 10-50g/day. I'm not as keto as you let on, in fact I mainly identify with "LCHF" rather than keto.

Jimmy moore looks like crap because he's older and never lifted. I think he also smokes. I lift at least 6 hours a week - and it's heavy and technical powerlifting.

I appreciate your posts even though i'm not sure about them.

 

[Nemesis48]

Status

Still floating around 235 - past two weekends i spiked up to 248 (down to a low of about 230 in the past 2 months) and it took some time for it to come off, and i'm going to another event this weekend, which i'm sure will see the same outcome. Then it's nothing but strict, lower calorie eating until the weekend of november 1st, and then a break for thanksgiving, one the 1st week of december, then about 2 weeks for christmas.

Food Timing

I've decided to stop fucking around with my meal timing - in the past 3 months i've messed around with alternate day fasting and no fasting at all, eating when I wake up then having lunch at noon, and dinner at around 6 pm. I also did a 23/1 fast, where I only eat one meal a day. This seemed highly effective, but also lead to constipation, and I think the main mechanism of the weight loss was calorie restriction. SO i'm back to 18/6, which seemed reliable in the past both for weight loss and for appetite control.

EC Stack

I've also started a supplementation routine with ephedrine HCL and caffeine ("EC stack"). Details here: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f15/ec-stack-2572645/

tl;dr:

25 mg epe/200 mg caffeine 0600
25 mg epe/200 mg caffeine 1200
25 mg epe/3 cups coffee (approximately 270 mg) caffeine 1800
option: 240 mg caffeine energy drink 2000 (lifting days only)

why? EC stack is clinically proven (links to studies in link above) to contribute about 1-2 kg of weight loss a month, when compared against placebo. This is quite significant for doing nothing except taking a few pills. It's also been proven in a recent, Danish massive meta-analysis to be safe. Losing an extra 2 or 4 lbs a month would be nice.

Lifting

Video of me in the gym tonight hitting a 315 deadlift PR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhphiCjZj7M
This was actually a horrible day in the gym, I was feeling shitty, im usually more explosive on my deadlifts - but still managed to lock in a new personal record. Testing my phone as I may make some strength videos in the near future.
Warmup: 135 @ 3 x 5, 225 @ 2 x 5, 275 x 5 with mixed grip
Work (PR): 315 x 5 with hook grip

Goals

My goal is still 205 and i've been stuck for some time at this weight range. Calorically speaking I should have lost the weight by now ,but lifting complicates everything. I should be able to, on paper, consume at least 3000 calories a day at maintenance, and I find if I eat more than 2000 things stall. Dat metabolism/genetics.

I also really want to be able to do pull ups eventually/soon - but i'm not strong enough right now.

One thing i've been pleasantly surprised with as i've lost weight is the fact that I have limitless energy. I don't know if this is because of my nutrition ,or because I train, or what. But I can literally go on a hike in 95 degree weather and never stop walking until my feet rot off - or recover very quickly from sprints etc. It's been a nice ability to discover.

 

[mtruitt76]

Not trying to gang up on you or bust your balls, but Seriously-Dead has raised some legitimate points base on science and personal expertise and you are dismissing him out of hand based on loose accounts of the diets of people taking large amounts of steroids from 40 years ago and the special snowflake theory.

Drastically changing one's lifestyle and diet requires a certain degree of fanaticism, but maintaining a lifestyle requires finding a balance. Just think about the fact that you will try long periods of fasting, ECA stacks, but not any amount of carbs.

People are able to get extremely lean eating carbs, just look at the diets of natural bodybuilders who offer a more applicable example than the body builder of the 70s who where taking large amount of steroids.

It is true that we do not know your body as well as you. However, consider the fact that you and your body are drastically different now than a couple of years ago. Is it that big of a leap to consider that conditions have changed and after several years and hundreds of pounds your body might respond differently to carbs now.

 

[Nemesis48]

Just finished a huge cheat weekend - hanging out with new people tends to throw me off, even if I try to avoid it. But no longer, back on task, and with a bunch of new research behind me. In the past i've considered what i'm about to do, but always used the excuse of fatty food being in my fridge as an excuse. FUCK THAT - I eat most of that shit this weekend, and what's left, i'm throwing out. IT won't be an excuse any more.

Planning and research has been completed on an aggressive new plan for weight loss. I should be able to get to around 210 by christmas, after which I will continue it long enough to cut water and then resume a modere moderate, ketogenic diet with a slight deficit to 205, then maintain at 205.

It will stretch over the next 2 months, with three planned complete breaks (should be two by calculation, but i'm not skipping these things i already have scheduled) - which are essentially cheat weekends:

Weekend of November 1st: SCA event (don't hate)
Thanksgiving
Weekend of December 1st: SCA event (Don't hate)

Program is Lyle Mcdonald's Protein Sparing Modified Fast from Rapid Weightloss Handbook. Here's what my take looks like:

Note: That was made with MFP, which I don't use, but it's useful for graphing

I estimate my maintenance intake at about 2000 calories (should be about 3500-3700, but this is defied by practice), this is about a 1000 calorie deficit (not counting exercise). I start tomorrow.

Current unknowns and notes:
- my protein intake may be too high, if so i'll just cut 2 scoops of whey, should bring it down to 150g/day. The new planned protein intake is substantially more than I normally eat, by about 2x.
- The workout schedule above is just an example, assistance exercises vary, and the bench is swapped out every other day with overhead press. It should be two, 2ish hour sessions a week. "bonus" hiking may happen on the weekend. I'm worried about my performance in the gym, but as long as i can MAINTAIN my current strength level i'll be happy. if I can increase all my lifts by 5 lbs/week i'll be very happy.
- magnesium citrate is only taken on lifting days - and it's to combat any cramping and as a recovery aid
- I take my whey in a mug of coffee, it's insanely delicious that way. Customarily I add heavy cream, but for this experiment, I can't ration in the fat.

EC stack update:
For those that don't know, I started an Ephedrine - Caffeine (EC stack) supplementation routine. Original thread/theory herE: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f15/ec-stack-2572645/
I have done 3 days on an EC stack. MY immediate reaction was feeling amazing, focused and clearly feel the thermogenic effects. I did experience some sporadic although non-serious palpitations and jitters. These effects are gone by day 4 (typical of what I have researched) and i'm going to start regular dosing for the next 2 months. This should add a minimum of 2 lbs additional lost a month and a maximum of 5, as research indicates. I'll be trying a week of aspirin added (990 mg/day) to see if there is any delta after the water weight from this weekend and adaption to the Protein Sparing Modified Fast. My research indicates that aspirin IS effective in an EC stack - but only for those who are significantly obese. I don't know if i'm fat enough to profit, but it's worth a test. I also am hesitant from adding aspirin as part of a routine cycle due to potential side effects. Because of this, if I do find it to be effective, i'll be doing ECA for 1 week/month and doing EC 3 weeks/month.


Outcome

That being said, in the next 60 days (assuming 1000 calorie deficit) I should lose:
- At least 17 lbs of fat by nutrition alone
- 4-10 lbs of fat from EC stack
- A few lbs (difficult to estimate) from my exercise program
- An unknown amount of water weight
- Unknown bonuses from IF induced ketosis - it will be an 18/6 fasting schedule
------
estimated MINIMUM: 20 lbs
estimated MAXIMUM: 30 lbs

 

[rorydaboss]

Everyone is telling you to start eating carbs and decide to go on one of the most aggressive low carb diets ever made.

RFL caused my binge eating to get way worse.