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Warning: TLDR ... x 3!
Today: [Russian & Japanese MMA Scenes]
MYTH 1 ?: Fedor vs Arona was rigged [Wolf/Volk Han´s interference]
MYTH 2: Hobbery?
MYTH 3: Arona completely outgrappled Fedor.
Given the complexity of this topic, this Decons is gonna be divided into 3 sub-Decons:
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.1] : I/ Potential Interference ?
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.2] : II/ Rings´Fight Configuration, Scorin´System & Modus Operandi
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.3] : III/ Technical Assessment of The Fight - Legacy & Historical Perspective
Why so complex? Because each narrative related to this historical & highly controversial fight leads to others that have to be checked.
On the other side, Rings´Scorin´System & Modus Operandi are 'legendary' complex to decipher.
Overall, it will enable us to assess the evolution of complex Scorin´Systems, Fight Configurations & skill sets.
Decons Threads would like to thank those 3Shertards OGs for their translations:
@estranged @Hotora86 @Yosuke
Sadly, only 10 gifs per post allowed: the next 4 posts followin´this OP will provide the rest.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
The Mother of All Debates... For sure, The Most Controversial fight ever...
Controversial because:
> Brazil vs Russia
> BJJ vs Sambo
> BTT vs RTT
> Fedor´s legacy [unbeaten streak]
> Rings´Scorin´System
> "If X was eazy, it would be called...Y"
Heck, even [innocent] Hickson gave his 2 cents...
Japan...Rings...The result of an evolution from the Pro Wrasslin´world which collided with a new wave of sambo practioners (who would finally have access to this new market thanks to the end of the Cold War), along with a new wave of Brazilian fighters [mainly BJJ but also Luta Livre].
That tournament was a game-changer in terms of purses ($250,000 ) [Hendo won $223,000 in the previous one, KoK 1999, while a UFC Champ at the time would earn 5 times less / Babalu, the runner-up only won $20,000 tho]
Context: Rings´ King of Kings OW Tournament 2000 [26-02-2000] :
- 1st Round [2 fights on the same night]
- OpenWeight: Fedor def. Arona [MD in the regular time, then UD at the end]
- Ref.: Ryogaku Wada
- Fight Configuration:
> 2 5mn Rounds, extra Round in case of a Draw
> No Strike to the head on the ground
- Quality of the Footage: decent :
> Fight: unedited
> Sequence between Rounds: [sadly] edited.
https://www.sherdog.com/events/Rings-King-of-Kings-2000-Block-B-299
I/ Potential Interference ? :
A surprisin´ controversy started 2 years ago, out of nowhere Volk Han dropped some new perspective on this fight:
https://matchtv.ru/boxing/fedor/mat...-v-fedore-chempiona-volk-khan-interview-fedor
VOLK HAN: "Look at the fight with Arona and tell me ...who won the fight...Arona or Fedor?
I was at Fedor's corner at that time and the fight was dead even. Fedor did great but Arona was winning by the judging criteria.
We told him to force the fight, be more agressive, stop throwing wild strikes.
At that time, the judges gave it to Arona.
I walked up to Maeda.."You can't give the win to Arona..Fedor has potential for kilometers...
You'll see..He'll become a star..."
Maeda (and the judges) listened"
1/ Context - The Feud :
Fedor´s split with RTT was actually pretty sour... Apparently, RTT felt betrayed about it, & rumours had it that they were tryin´to prepare some of their fighters in Pride (1st, Balachinski [got injured again, tho], & then Kharitonov...) to take 'revenge' on Fedor.
a/ Fedor´s Side of the story:
Moreover, as always, some money involved: RTT´s 'rights' to 30% of Fedor´s purse ...
b/ Vadim Finkelstein´s [Fedor´s new manager] Version :
"The Japanese paid Pogodin a salary so that he would bring fighters for little money."
c/ [Fedor's trainer] Nikolai Pitkov´s Version:
https://matchtv.ru/boxing/matchtvne...s_kotorym_Fedor_Jemeljanenko_proshel_17_bojev
2/ Volk´s angle:
> Context: Timin´ - Did Volk really need to interfere?
At Rings KoK Tournament 1999, The RTT fighters involved were:
- Andrei Kopylov
- Mikhail Illyukhin
- Yuriy Kochkine
- Achmed Labazanov
None reached the semi-finals.
At Rings KoK Tournament 2000, The RTT fighters involved were:
- Andrei Kopylov : lost in the 1st Rd.
- Mikhail Illyukhin: : idem
- Suren Balachinskiy (Fedor´s rival in RTT): idem
- Achmed Labazanov: idem
- Mikhail Borissov: idem
- Volk Han: won
- Fedor
The Fedor vs Arona fight occured 2 months after Suren Balachinskiy lost to Valentijn Reem at RINGS KoK 2000 BLOCK A.
Now that was a real blow, indeed...
> RTT´s Structure:
- 1 Country Manager > Pogodin
- 3 Mentors, Veteran Rings Fighters > Volk Han, Kopylov, Nikolai Zouev
- 1 link between the Ol´& New Gen. > Illyukhin
- The New Generation: Suren Balachinskiy, Fedor, Bozigit Ataev, Labazanov, Kochkine.
- Ol´Gen. [low activity]: Mikhail Borissov
Note: Pogodin would also manage Rings Georgia:
- Ameran Bitsadze
- Zaza Tkeshelashvili
- Bakouri Gogitidze
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-russian-nhb-scene-rtt-birth-of-a-team.3827439/
Now, let´s try to deconstruct his narrative, but before that, it´s important to note that Volk Han is indeed a monument for Russian MMA. The equivalent of a Carlson or a Maeda, literally.
Consequently: maximum hespect, but we have to assess some historical facts & narratives here.
a/ "I was at Fedor's corner at that time".
Well, that´s kindah problematic, technically...
Fedor vs Arona was the 5th fight of the card.
Volk Han vs Hasdell was the 2nd.
Kopylov vs Sauer was the 3rd.
Basically, the 2 RTT mentors were backstage recoverin´ (KO for Kopylov, & Volk had to get prepared for his tough fight against Hoffman later in the night).
Consequently, who was effectively cornerin´Fedor?
1 = Vladimir Pogodin, Rings Russia´s & Fedor´s Manager, Vice-President of All-Russia Sambo Federation. Never competed in Rings. Died in a plane crash.
2 = Nikolai Zouev, the 3rd RTT mentor, samboist, retired Rings Vet who didnt make the transition from the pro-wrasslin´era to the 'real' MMA one
3 = Nikolai Pitkov, RTT Kickboxing coach. Never competed in Rings, close to Fedor.
Double-checkin´: look who´s back 1 fight later, on the same card [Ilyukhin vs TK], tricky Ilyukhin´corner, durin´the walk-out:
& at ringside:
Obviously here, the problem is that the footage between rounds ((but not durin´the fight)) was edited .
If you pay attention to what´s goin´on at ringside durin´the fight (in corners, near Maeda or in the audience)
Volk Han´s [possible] presence is hard to find...
Even when the final decision was declared, Volk still didnt appear:
- in the ring
- at ringside
- in the audience
- when Fedor & his corner made their way back to the locker-room
Next Post: End of The OP...
Today: [Russian & Japanese MMA Scenes]
MYTH 1 ?: Fedor vs Arona was rigged [Wolf/Volk Han´s interference]
MYTH 2: Hobbery?
MYTH 3: Arona completely outgrappled Fedor.
Given the complexity of this topic, this Decons is gonna be divided into 3 sub-Decons:
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.1] : I/ Potential Interference ?
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.2] : II/ Rings´Fight Configuration, Scorin´System & Modus Operandi
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.3] : III/ Technical Assessment of The Fight - Legacy & Historical Perspective
Why so complex? Because each narrative related to this historical & highly controversial fight leads to others that have to be checked.
On the other side, Rings´Scorin´System & Modus Operandi are 'legendary' complex to decipher.
Overall, it will enable us to assess the evolution of complex Scorin´Systems, Fight Configurations & skill sets.
Decons Threads would like to thank those 3
@estranged @Hotora86 @Yosuke
Sadly, only 10 gifs per post allowed: the next 4 posts followin´this OP will provide the rest.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-wolf-´round-the-ring-fedor-vs-arona.4153702/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-38-re-ass-essin´da-atomic-butt-drop.4084973/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-38-re-ass-essin´da-atomic-butt-drop.4084973/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...y-stepped-into-the-ring-at-age-51-46.4008521/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...k-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand-15.3864713/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin-9.3866571/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-russian-nhb-scene-rtt-birth-of-a-team.3827439/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...k-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand-15.3864713/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin-9.3866571/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-russian-nhb-scene-rtt-birth-of-a-team.3827439/
The Mother of All Debates... For sure, The Most Controversial fight ever...
Controversial because:
> Brazil vs Russia
> BJJ vs Sambo
> BTT vs RTT
> Fedor´s legacy [unbeaten streak]
> Rings´Scorin´System
> "If X was eazy, it would be called...Y"
Heck, even [innocent] Hickson gave his 2 cents...
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/recent/The-Greatest-Gracie-One-on-One-with-Rickson-1841
"I watched his fight against Arona & I think that Arona won, & that he could win again."
"I watched his fight against Arona & I think that Arona won, & that he could win again."
Japan...Rings...The result of an evolution from the Pro Wrasslin´world which collided with a new wave of sambo practioners (who would finally have access to this new market thanks to the end of the Cold War), along with a new wave of Brazilian fighters [mainly BJJ but also Luta Livre].
That tournament was a game-changer in terms of purses ($250,000 ) [Hendo won $223,000 in the previous one, KoK 1999, while a UFC Champ at the time would earn 5 times less / Babalu, the runner-up only won $20,000 tho]
Context: Rings´ King of Kings OW Tournament 2000 [26-02-2000] :
- 1st Round [2 fights on the same night]
- OpenWeight: Fedor def. Arona [MD in the regular time, then UD at the end]
- Ref.: Ryogaku Wada
- Fight Configuration:
> 2 5mn Rounds, extra Round in case of a Draw
> No Strike to the head on the ground
- Quality of the Footage: decent :
> Fight: unedited
> Sequence between Rounds: [sadly] edited.
https://www.sherdog.com/events/Rings-King-of-Kings-2000-Block-B-299
I/ Potential Interference ? :
A surprisin´ controversy started 2 years ago, out of nowhere Volk Han dropped some new perspective on this fight:
https://matchtv.ru/boxing/fedor/mat...-v-fedore-chempiona-volk-khan-interview-fedor
VOLK HAN: "Look at the fight with Arona and tell me ...who won the fight...Arona or Fedor?
I was at Fedor's corner at that time and the fight was dead even. Fedor did great but Arona was winning by the judging criteria.
We told him to force the fight, be more agressive, stop throwing wild strikes.
At that time, the judges gave it to Arona.
I walked up to Maeda.."You can't give the win to Arona..Fedor has potential for kilometers...
You'll see..He'll become a star..."
Maeda (and the judges) listened"
1/ Context - The Feud :
Fedor´s split with RTT was actually pretty sour... Apparently, RTT felt betrayed about it, & rumours had it that they were tryin´to prepare some of their fighters in Pride (1st, Balachinski [got injured again, tho], & then Kharitonov...) to take 'revenge' on Fedor.
a/ Fedor´s Side of the story:
Q: Do you continue to interact with your ex-manager Mr. Pogodin? Have there been any more
problems for you after you stopped working with him?
Fedor: "I don’t have any contact with Mr. Pogodin lately. There were some financial problems
we still had to fix. And of course, he continues to try making it hard for me."
Q: Has he been trying to interfere with your sports career?
Fedor: "His influence has been most notable in my Combat Sambo career.
I wouldn’t want to say that he is entirely responsible, however it is strange that even though it was officially declared I was going to be named Master (of Combat Sambo) International Class, I never received the title."
problems for you after you stopped working with him?
Fedor: "I don’t have any contact with Mr. Pogodin lately. There were some financial problems
we still had to fix. And of course, he continues to try making it hard for me."
Q: Has he been trying to interfere with your sports career?
Fedor: "His influence has been most notable in my Combat Sambo career.
I wouldn’t want to say that he is entirely responsible, however it is strange that even though it was officially declared I was going to be named Master (of Combat Sambo) International Class, I never received the title."
Moreover, as always, some money involved: RTT´s 'rights' to 30% of Fedor´s purse ...
Q: Now fighters give managers, as a rule, 20 percent of the fee for a fight. 14 years ago, 30 percent were considered a normal rate?
Pitkov: " Understand, it was all in words. There was no contract. We just sat down and figured out how much money we needed to provide training and leave some part in reserve - and it turned out that 30 percent. If a fighter begins to receive large fees, then you can agree that it was 20 and 10 percent. It was all on a friendly wave, without any pressure whatsoever.
And Fedor could say: “Guys, I have already begun to receive more, let it be not 30 percent, but 20”. We did not have a goal to make money on Fedor during that period of his career. We counted on the prospect - that in the future there will be other fees, and we will all earn. And then we perceived this as an opportunity to travel to Japan, communicate with the fighters."
Pitkov: " Understand, it was all in words. There was no contract. We just sat down and figured out how much money we needed to provide training and leave some part in reserve - and it turned out that 30 percent. If a fighter begins to receive large fees, then you can agree that it was 20 and 10 percent. It was all on a friendly wave, without any pressure whatsoever.
And Fedor could say: “Guys, I have already begun to receive more, let it be not 30 percent, but 20”. We did not have a goal to make money on Fedor during that period of his career. We counted on the prospect - that in the future there will be other fees, and we will all earn. And then we perceived this as an opportunity to travel to Japan, communicate with the fighters."
b/ Vadim Finkelstein´s [Fedor´s new manager] Version :
"The Japanese paid Pogodin a salary so that he would bring fighters for little money."
c/ [Fedor's trainer] Nikolai Pitkov´s Version:
https://matchtv.ru/boxing/matchtvne...s_kotorym_Fedor_Jemeljanenko_proshel_17_bojev
“When we first started working together, we had a conversation. I said: “Fedor, a time will come when you will become a champion - and Fedor smiled at these words because we were sitting in a hostel of a meat processing plant. - And when you become a champion, other managers will offer you to move to them. And I have a question: what will you do? Will we go further as a team or will they lure you away? ”
Fedor replied: “No. Of course, we will go as a team.”
I asked: “Maybe it makes sense to sign something?”
Fyodor laughed and said: “Why do we need to sign something, if I know that I will never leave without you?”
And then the following happened:
Vadim Finkelstein had a club, but with this club he could not break through to Japan. He did not have a star. This is what all the clubs do - if there is no star, they will lure it from somewhere else to go further together. And Finkelstein clearly calculated that with Fedor he would succeed. We were invited to the tournament that Finkelstein held in Moscow. Fedor sat among the honored guests, we were in the nosebleeds. And at that moment, I suppose, Finkelstein somehow influenced him. Maybe promised him some gingerbread. And Fedor just ran away. He disappeared, stopped appearing, did not answer calls. Finally, we accidentally found out that he is in a hotel in Tula. We went there - and we had a conversation.
In order to leave, you need to find a reason and justify yourself. He found this reason in the fact that once someone had said something to him rudely or demanded what he didn’t want - extra workouts or something else.
He also said: "I gave you the phone of Finkelstein, but you did not call."
Although I called the number that Fedor left, I said that I was the coach of Fyodor, and I was told that Finkelstein was not there, that he had left, that he had not yet arrived, and so on - and I thought that he was not a serious person.
And Fedor said: “You did not call, but I called. I have already gone there, I have been made an offer, I will try there, if anything, I will inform you.”
And somehow we parted vaguely. It was not clear whether we would contact each other or not. ”
Fedor replied: “No. Of course, we will go as a team.”
I asked: “Maybe it makes sense to sign something?”
Fyodor laughed and said: “Why do we need to sign something, if I know that I will never leave without you?”
And then the following happened:
Vadim Finkelstein had a club, but with this club he could not break through to Japan. He did not have a star. This is what all the clubs do - if there is no star, they will lure it from somewhere else to go further together. And Finkelstein clearly calculated that with Fedor he would succeed. We were invited to the tournament that Finkelstein held in Moscow. Fedor sat among the honored guests, we were in the nosebleeds. And at that moment, I suppose, Finkelstein somehow influenced him. Maybe promised him some gingerbread. And Fedor just ran away. He disappeared, stopped appearing, did not answer calls. Finally, we accidentally found out that he is in a hotel in Tula. We went there - and we had a conversation.
In order to leave, you need to find a reason and justify yourself. He found this reason in the fact that once someone had said something to him rudely or demanded what he didn’t want - extra workouts or something else.
He also said: "I gave you the phone of Finkelstein, but you did not call."
Although I called the number that Fedor left, I said that I was the coach of Fyodor, and I was told that Finkelstein was not there, that he had left, that he had not yet arrived, and so on - and I thought that he was not a serious person.
And Fedor said: “You did not call, but I called. I have already gone there, I have been made an offer, I will try there, if anything, I will inform you.”
And somehow we parted vaguely. It was not clear whether we would contact each other or not. ”
2/ Volk´s angle:
> Context: Timin´ - Did Volk really need to interfere?
At Rings KoK Tournament 1999, The RTT fighters involved were:
- Andrei Kopylov
- Mikhail Illyukhin
- Yuriy Kochkine
- Achmed Labazanov
None reached the semi-finals.
At Rings KoK Tournament 2000, The RTT fighters involved were:
- Andrei Kopylov : lost in the 1st Rd.
- Mikhail Illyukhin: : idem
- Suren Balachinskiy (Fedor´s rival in RTT): idem
- Achmed Labazanov: idem
- Mikhail Borissov: idem
- Volk Han: won
- Fedor
The Fedor vs Arona fight occured 2 months after Suren Balachinskiy lost to Valentijn Reem at RINGS KoK 2000 BLOCK A.
Now that was a real blow, indeed...
> RTT´s Structure:
- 1 Country Manager > Pogodin
- 3 Mentors, Veteran Rings Fighters > Volk Han, Kopylov, Nikolai Zouev
- 1 link between the Ol´& New Gen. > Illyukhin
- The New Generation: Suren Balachinskiy, Fedor, Bozigit Ataev, Labazanov, Kochkine.
- Ol´Gen. [low activity]: Mikhail Borissov
Note: Pogodin would also manage Rings Georgia:
- Ameran Bitsadze
- Zaza Tkeshelashvili
- Bakouri Gogitidze
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-russian-nhb-scene-rtt-birth-of-a-team.3827439/
Now, let´s try to deconstruct his narrative, but before that, it´s important to note that Volk Han is indeed a monument for Russian MMA. The equivalent of a Carlson or a Maeda, literally.
Consequently: maximum hespect, but we have to assess some historical facts & narratives here.
a/ "I was at Fedor's corner at that time".
Well, that´s kindah problematic, technically...
Fedor vs Arona was the 5th fight of the card.
Volk Han vs Hasdell was the 2nd.
Kopylov vs Sauer was the 3rd.
Basically, the 2 RTT mentors were backstage recoverin´ (KO for Kopylov, & Volk had to get prepared for his tough fight against Hoffman later in the night).
Consequently, who was effectively cornerin´Fedor?
1 = Vladimir Pogodin, Rings Russia´s & Fedor´s Manager, Vice-President of All-Russia Sambo Federation. Never competed in Rings. Died in a plane crash.
2 = Nikolai Zouev, the 3rd RTT mentor, samboist, retired Rings Vet who didnt make the transition from the pro-wrasslin´era to the 'real' MMA one
3 = Nikolai Pitkov, RTT Kickboxing coach. Never competed in Rings, close to Fedor.
Double-checkin´: look who´s back 1 fight later, on the same card [Ilyukhin vs TK], tricky Ilyukhin´corner, durin´the walk-out:
& at ringside:
Obviously here, the problem is that the footage between rounds ((but not durin´the fight)) was edited .
If you pay attention to what´s goin´on at ringside durin´the fight (in corners, near Maeda or in the audience)
Volk Han´s [possible] presence is hard to find...
See pics in the 3rd Post of This Thread.
Even when the final decision was declared, Volk still didnt appear:
- in the ring
- at ringside
- in the audience
- when Fedor & his corner made their way back to the locker-room
See pics in the 3rd Post of This Thread.
Next Post: End of The OP...
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