Rumored Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.1] - Chasin´The Wolf ´round the Ring... [Fedor vs Arona]

Discussion in 'Worldwide MMA Discussion' started by gono btw, Aug 10, 2020.

  1. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    Warning: TLDR ... x 3!


    Today: [Russian & Japanese MMA Scenes]

    MYTH 1 ?: Fedor vs Arona was rigged [Wolf/Volk Han´s interference]
    MYTH 2: Hobbery?
    MYTH 3: Arona completely outgrappled Fedor.

    Given the complexity of this topic, this Decons is gonna be divided into 3 sub-Decons:

    Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.1] : I/ Potential Interference ?
    Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.2] : II/ Rings´Fight Configuration, Scorin´System & Modus Operandi
    Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.3] : III/ Technical Assessment of The Fight - Legacy & Historical Perspective

    Why so complex? Because each narrative related to this historical & highly controversial fight leads to others that have to be checked.
    On the other side, Rings´Scorin´System & Modus Operandi are 'legendary' complex to decipher.
    Overall, it will enable us to assess the evolution of complex Scorin´Systems, Fight Configurations & skill sets.

    Decons Threads would like to thank those 3 Shertards OGs for their translations:
    @estranged @Hotora86 @Yosuke

    Sadly, only 10 gifs per post allowed: the next 4 posts followin´this OP will provide the rest.

    Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

    The Mother of All Debates... For sure, The Most Controversial fight ever...
    Controversial because:
    > Brazil vs Russia
    > BJJ vs Sambo
    > BTT vs RTT
    > Fedor´s legacy [unbeaten streak]
    > Rings´Scorin´System
    > "If X was eazy, it would be called...Y"

    Heck, even [innocent] Hickson gave his 2 cents...

    "I watched his fight against Arona & I think that Arona won, & that he could win again."

    Japan...Rings...The result of an evolution from the Pro Wrasslin´world which collided with a new wave of sambo practioners (who would finally have access to this new market thanks to the end of the Cold War), along with a new wave of Brazilian fighters [mainly BJJ but also Luta Livre].

    That tournament was a game-changer in terms of purses ($250,000 ) [Hendo won $223,000 in the previous one, KoK 1999, while a UFC Champ at the time would earn 5 times less / Babalu, the runner-up only won $20,000 tho]

    Context: Rings´ King of Kings OW Tournament 2000 [26-02-2000] :

    - 1st Round [2 fights on the same night]
    - OpenWeight: Fedor def. Arona [MD in the regular time, then UD at the end]
    - Ref.: Ryogaku Wada

    - Fight Configuration:
    > 2 5mn Rounds, extra Round in case of a Draw
    > No Strike to the head on the ground
    - Quality of the Footage: decent :
    > Fight: unedited
    > Sequence between Rounds: [sadly] edited.

    fedor arona.png fedor arona 2.png

    I/ Potential Interference ? :

    A surprisin´ controversy started 2 years ago, out of nowhere Volk Han dropped some new perspective on this fight:

    VOLK HAN: "Look at the fight with Arona and tell me ...who won the fight...Arona or Fedor?
    I was at Fedor's corner at that time and the fight was dead even. Fedor did great but Arona was winning by the judging criteria.
    We told him to force the fight, be more agressive, stop throwing wild strikes.
    At that time, the judges gave it to Arona.
    I walked up to Maeda
    .."You can't give the win to Arona..Fedor has potential for kilometers...
    You'll see..He'll become a star..."
    Maeda (and the judges) listened"

    1/ Context - The Feud :

    Fedor´s split with RTT was actually pretty sour... Apparently, RTT felt betrayed about it, & rumours had it that they were tryin´to prepare some of their fighters in Pride (1st, Balachinski [got injured again, tho], & then Kharitonov...) to take 'revenge' on Fedor.

    a/ Fedor´s Side of the story:

    Q: Do you continue to interact with your ex-manager Mr. Pogodin? Have there been any more
    problems for you after you stopped working with him?

    Fedor: "I don’t have any contact with Mr. Pogodin lately. There were some financial problems
    we still had to fix. And of course, he continues to try making it hard for me."

    Q: Has he been trying to interfere with your sports career?

    Fedor: "His influence has been most notable in my Combat Sambo career.
    I wouldn’t want to say that he is entirely responsible, however it is strange that even though it was officially declared I was going to be named Master (of Combat Sambo) International Class, I never received the title."

    Moreover, as always, some money involved: RTT´s 'rights' to 30% of Fedor´s purse ...

    Q: Now fighters give managers, as a rule, 20 percent of the fee for a fight. 14 years ago, 30 percent were considered a normal rate?

    Pitkov: " Understand, it was all in words. There was no contract. We just sat down and figured out how much money we needed to provide training and leave some part in reserve - and it turned out that 30 percent. If a fighter begins to receive large fees, then you can agree that it was 20 and 10 percent. It was all on a friendly wave, without any pressure whatsoever.
    And Fedor could say: “Guys, I have already begun to receive more, let it be not 30 percent, but 20”. We did not have a goal to make money on Fedor during that period of his career. We counted on the prospect - that in the future there will be other fees, and we will all earn. And then we perceived this as an opportunity to travel to Japan, communicate with the fighters."

    b/ Vadim Finkelstein´s [Fedor´s new manager] Version :

    "The Japanese paid Pogodin a salary so that he would bring fighters for little money."

    c/ [Fedor's trainer] Nikolai Pitkov´s Version:

    “When we first started working together, we had a conversation. I said: “Fedor, a time will come when you will become a champion - and Fedor smiled at these words because we were sitting in a hostel of a meat processing plant. - And when you become a champion, other managers will offer you to move to them. And I have a question: what will you do? Will we go further as a team or will they lure you away? ”
    Fedor replied: “No. Of course, we will go as a team.”

    I asked: “Maybe it makes sense to sign something?”

    Fyodor laughed and said: “Why do we need to sign something, if I know that I will never leave without you?”
    And then the following happened:

    Vadim Finkelstein had a club, but with this club he could not break through to Japan. He did not have a star. This is what all the clubs do - if there is no star, they will lure it from somewhere else to go further together. And Finkelstein clearly calculated that with Fedor he would succeed. We were invited to the tournament that Finkelstein held in Moscow. Fedor sat among the honored guests, we were in the nosebleeds. And at that moment, I suppose, Finkelstein somehow influenced him. Maybe promised him some gingerbread. And Fedor just ran away. He disappeared, stopped appearing, did not answer calls. Finally, we accidentally found out that he is in a hotel in Tula. We went there - and we had a conversation.
    In order to leave, you need to find a reason and justify yourself. He found this reason in the fact that once someone had said something to him rudely or demanded what he didn’t want - extra workouts or something else.

    He also said: "I gave you the phone of Finkelstein, but you did not call."

    Although I called the number that Fedor left, I said that I was the coach of Fyodor, and I was told that Finkelstein was not there, that he had left, that he had not yet arrived, and so on - and I thought that he was not a serious person.

    And Fedor said: “You did not call, but I called. I have already gone there, I have been made an offer, I will try there, if anything, I will inform you.”

    And somehow we parted vaguely. It was not clear whether we would contact each other or not. ”

    2/ Volk´s angle:

    > Context: Timin´ - Did Volk really need to interfere?

    At Rings KoK Tournament 1999, The RTT fighters involved were:

    - Andrei Kopylov
    - Mikhail Illyukhin
    - Yuriy Kochkine
    - Achmed Labazanov

    None reached the semi-finals.

    At Rings KoK Tournament 2000, The RTT fighters involved were:

    - Andrei Kopylov : lost in the 1st Rd.
    - Mikhail Illyukhin: : idem
    - Suren Balachinskiy (Fedor´s rival in RTT): idem
    - Achmed Labazanov: idem
    - Mikhail Borissov: idem
    - Volk Han: won
    - Fedor

    The Fedor vs Arona fight occured 2 months after Suren Balachinskiy lost to Valentijn Reem at RINGS KoK 2000 BLOCK A.
    Now that was a real blow, indeed...

    > RTT´s Structure:

    - 1 Country Manager > Pogodin
    - 3 Mentors, Veteran Rings Fighters > Volk Han, Kopylov, Nikolai Zouev
    - 1 link between the Ol´& New Gen. > Illyukhin
    - The New Generation: Suren Balachinskiy, Fedor, Bozigit Ataev, Labazanov, Kochkine.
    - Ol´Gen. [low activity]: Mikhail Borissov

    Note: Pogodin would also manage Rings Georgia:
    - Ameran Bitsadze
    - Zaza Tkeshelashvili
    - Bakouri Gogitidze

    Now, let´s try to deconstruct his narrative, but before that, it´s important to note that Volk Han is indeed a monument for Russian MMA. The equivalent of a Carlson or a Maeda, literally.
    Consequently: maximum hespect, but we have to assess some historical facts & narratives here.

    a/ "I was at Fedor's corner at that time".

    Well, that´s kindah problematic, technically...

    Fedor vs Arona was the 5th fight of the card.
    Volk Han vs Hasdell was the 2nd.
    Kopylov vs Sauer was the 3rd.

    Basically, the 2 RTT mentors were backstage recoverin´ (KO for Kopylov, & Volk had to get prepared for his tough fight against Hoffman later in the night).

    Consequently, who was effectively cornerin´Fedor?

    full corner chek.png

    1 = Vladimir Pogodin, Rings Russia´s & Fedor´s Manager, Vice-President of All-Russia Sambo Federation. Never competed in Rings. Died in a plane crash.
    2 = Nikolai Zouev, the 3rd RTT mentor, samboist, retired Rings Vet who didnt make the transition from the pro-wrasslin´era to the 'real' MMA one
    3 = Nikolai Pitkov, RTT Kickboxing coach. Never competed in Rings, close to Fedor.

    Double-checkin´: look who´s back 1 fight later, on the same card [Ilyukhin vs TK], tricky Ilyukhin´corner, durin´the walk-out:

    Z= Zouev on the left
    V= Volk on the right

    volk corner ilyu check.png

    & at ringside:

    P= Pogodin on the left
    V= Volk on the right

    volk corner ilyu 3 check.png

    Obviously here, the problem is that the footage between rounds ((but not durin´the fight)) was edited .
    If you pay attention to what´s goin´on at ringside durin´the fight (in corners, near Maeda or in the audience)
    Volk Han´s [possible] presence is hard to find...

    vlcsnap-2019-08-23-10h37m13s033.png vlcsnap-2019-08-23-10h40m45s943.png vlcsnap-2019-08-23-10h45m38s337.png

    vlcsnap-2019-08-23-10h54m19s048.png vlcsnap-2019-08-23-10h57m57s881.png

    See pics in the 3rd Post of This Thread.

    Even when the final decision was declared, Volk still didnt appear:
    - in the ring
    - at ringside
    - in the audience
    - when Fedor & his corner made their way back to the locker-room

    See pics in the 3rd Post of This Thread.

    Next Post: End of The OP...
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  2. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    b/ "and the fight was dead even. Fedor did great but Arona was winning by the judging criteria."

    The obvious question here: which one of them [RTT crew] was indeed qualified to assess the fight & its scorin´?
    Pogodin, for sure..
    While Zouev & Pitkov were fighter & coaches, Pogodin did have that intimate knowledge & refined understandin´of that MMA Org. since, like other country managers (Chris Dolman for Rings Holland or Maeda for Rings Japan, for instance), he would sometimes serve as a Judge.


    > Corner´s reactions: Pogodin´s angle :

    Now, on the very same card, Pogodin displayed distinct reactions in decisive moments:
    > in the 2nd part of the 2nd Rd, calm & composed,givin´instructions, without any real urgency (if we accept the narrative that indeed Fedor was completely dominated)

    pogodin fedor vs arona - end of 2nd - 1.gif pogodin fedor vs arona - end of 2nd - 2.gif

    > Check the difference with the same Pogodin at the end of the Extra Round, on his feet (like the rest of the corner...):

    pogodin 3 Rd.gif

    > 4 fights later, in the same card, in a pretty close fight [again Hoffman W - Draw x 2 at the end of the regular time, & close scrap in the extra round], we can see him at ringside yellin´instructions with 10 sec. left, showin´real signs of urgency while Hoffman is securin´the [dominant] position:
    pogodin volk vs hoff.gif

    In short, Pogodin knew when a fight in Rings was close & would probably be scored a Draw at the end of the Regular time.

    c/ "We told him to force the fight, be more agressive, stop throwing wild strikes."

    True. This instruction was indeed given in the 3rd Rd, but... not by Volk:

    Nikolai Pitkov, Fedor´s Strikin´Coach:

    pitkov 3rd Rd.gif

    Interestin´Note: see in the 3rd Part of this Decons, our assessment on Fedor´s strikin´[via Volk Han vs Nog]

    d/ "At that time, The judges gave it to Arona. I walked up to Maeda.."

    Here, a valuable information: Volk´s basically confirmin´that his [potential] interference was :
    > not premeditated [Note: that interview was done in 2018, 18 years is a lot of time, indeed... but this is not the kind of info that one would easily forget...]
    > in person (no message sent or phone used)

    Apparently, the Kopylov loss to Arona 8 months earlier (Tiger outgrappled the [much bigger] ol´Vet) didnt force RTT to take extreme 'measures' to secure the win for Fedor, before the fight.

    Now, when Volk explicitly said that the Judges gave it to Arona, was he talkin´about the end of the regular time, or the end of the fight?
    - End of the regular time? He´s got 5mns to reach Maeda who would never leave ringside

    - End of the fight? Max. 45 sec. (time for the Ref. to collect the 3 scorecards)
    Judges 1 - Ricardo Arona vs Andrei Kopylov.gif Judges 2 - Ricardo Arona vs Andrei Kopylov.gif

    The ring´s structure & the key Actors:


    You literally cant miss Maeda, with his 'legendary' red jacket, & imposin´ stature [1m92 / 117kg in the Karelin fight].
    He would sometimes serve as a judge, but anyway, he would always stay at ringside, isolated (with the Doc. at his side): would hardly move one inch durin´the fight, except in case of some technical problem with the Ref.
    At the end of the fight or round, he would still stay at his 'desk', & rarely move.
    Durin´that tournament, the only time he did move away was perhaps in the TK vs Handy fight, at the end:
    See Gif in the 4th Post of This Thread.

    Fighters had a TV circuit backstage, consequently Volk could indeed watch the fight, but it would technically take some time to go from there to the ring.
    And by doin´so, one would obviously raise suspicions while talkin´to Maeda at ringside...

    Judges & Corners:

    geo 1 ok check.png

    F= Fedor´s Corner
    A= Arona´s Corner
    J = Judges
    M = Maeda

    Note: At one point, in Rd 2, in the dark, an imposin´silhouete seems to be movin´ [1st & 3rd Rds], at ringside, near Maeda:
    See 2 pics in the 4th Post of This Thread.

    but...was a Japanese staff member, not Volk [1m90 / 107 kg]...

    See Pic in the 4th Post of This Thread.

    e/ "You can't give the win to Arona..Fedor has potential for kilometers... You'll see... He'll become a star... Maeda (and the judges) listened"

    Even if he could technically reach Maeda at ringside without raisin´any suspicion (Arona´s corner could easily acknowledge it at ringside), he would still need some pretty eloquent speech (more than 45 sec.) to convince him (gottah wonder about the language barrier, tho... in all his Rings pre-fights interviews, he would always speak in Russian)

    3/ Arona´s angle:

    Q: You had a very controversial decision loss to Fedor Emelianenko, considered the MMA GOAT, at Rings´ King of Kings, in Japan, what happened in that fight?

    TIGER: "At the time, the rule was that you could only strike on the feet & on the ground, only to the body.
    And this helped Fedor. I mounted him several times durin´the fight, I got several TDs & I also did good on the feet.
    The fight was completely mine.
    But the Org. had other interests. The Japanese Promoters wanted a Jap. in the final.
    What happened was really shameless. It was 2 fights in the same night, whoever won, would face a Japanese in the final.
    Whoever won the final, would make it to Rings Millenium Combine.
    Thus, they gave the victory to Fedor, who was already bleedin´a lot durin´our fight. The fight was one-sided.
    And right after, when he went to face the Japanese, after a few seconds, the fight was stopped because Fedor was bleedin´a lot, he couldnt continue, but he was bleedin´because of our fight. Because of my strikes.
    And the Japanese became the winner without even fightin´.
    Consequently, they managed to put the Japanese in the final of the other event as they wanted"

    Q: Did you go through somethin´similar after that?

    TIGER: "The Japanese people never did anythin´wrong. In Pride, everythin´was real.
    They didnt have this. It was the only case of a fixed fight.
    Jus´for you to understand, the Japanese people never boo, they are educated. And that day, they booed the Judges´decision a lot. They couldnt understand Fedor´s victory. They hespect fighters a lot. And what happened was very clear. They shouted against the result, they booed a lot."

    Q: And how do you react to this result?

    TIGER: "I still meet fans who say that Im the only one who mauled Fedor, that he lost several times, but Im the only one who mauled him. Whoever watched the fight knows it. Even when he lost, he was never mauled that way.
    Im the only one who did it. I dont consider this a loss, it was a win. I did earn it."

    Now...Is this narrative realistic?

    a/ "But the Org. had other interests. The Japanese promoters wanted a Jap. in the final."

    Well, that´s technically inaccurate, since:
    - Kanehara had already won his 1st fight against Cacareco, b4 the Fedor vs Arona fight...
    - while... Yamamoto would win his a few fights later.
    - Tamura, another fan favourite, had already won against Grom Zaza & would win against Borislav Jeliazkov
    - Ryushi Yanagisawa had already lost against Handy, tho.

    Indeed, TK was not the only Japanese fighter involved that night..
    Yoshihisa Yamamoto actually had an outstandin´night: armbarrin´Bitsadze, & TKOin´Haseman via nasty leg kicks...
    And got that special greetin´from Maeda at ringside...

    b/ The TK case:

    Was TK a fan favourite? Yes, indeed.
    More than that, actually... he was pretty close to Boss Maeda:
    - Maeda chose him to represent Rings in that Lumax Cup, in 1995 [proto-MMA]
    - TK was one of Maeda´s main sparrin´partner for the Karelin fight.

    Now, does it mean that he received a special 'treatment'?

    Well, 1st of all, even though they fought twice b4 (but not full shoot), gettin´ tricky Ilyukhin in the 1st fight was no gift: experienced vet., winner of tough NHB tournaments in IAFC (beat Igor, for instance...with that good ol´chin-in-the-eye move)...

    Obviously, in that OW KoK tournament, they were all dangerous, but at least 9 fighters would have been an 'easier' deal for TK:

    - Tommy Sauer [comin´off 2 losses b4 the tournament]
    - Ameran Bitsadze [quite inexperienced in MMA]
    - Joop Kasteel [2-5 in his last 7 fights]
    - Lee Hasdell [1-4 in his last 5 fights]
    - ol´vet Kopylov, dangerous, but realistically well past his physical prime [3-4 in his last 7 fights]
    - ol´Mikhail Borisov [a 38 yrs ol´ rookie]
    - Dave Menne [natural MW]
    - Bitsadze Tariel [huge size difference] [2-3 in his last 5]
    - Borislav Jeliazkov

    ...& even a 10th one, arguably: Fedor himself, who was still a rookie, and, by Volk Han´s own admission was gettin´dominated by Ilyukhin & Ataev in sparrin´(and Maeda himself could acknowledge it when he scouted RTT).

    More: Rings did have an internal rankin´ (not very 'acccurate', one might argue...):

    Champ: Tamura
    1. Joop Kasteel
    2. Bitsadze Tariel
    3. TK
    4. Yvel
    5. Yamamoto
    6. Ilyukhin
    7. Zaza
    8. Volk Han
    9. Valentijn Overeem
    10. Kanehara

    Champ: Vacant
    1. Tamura
    2. Babalu
    3. Joop Kasteel
    4. Bitsadze Tariel
    5. TK
    6. Horn
    7. Yamamoto
    8. Ilyukhin
    9. Zaza
    10. Volk Han

    2nd: TK´s very next fight, at Rings King of Kings 2000 Final, when he faced Handy Couture, the Judges scored the fight: UD for the American.
    The result was kindah logical, given Rings´Judges 'modus operandi', but...if we accept that narrative about Rings bein´biased towards Japanese fighters, & TK in particular, there´s room for some twisted narrative that could have granted TK a slightly different outcome:
    - Draw x 3
    or even:
    - Couture - Draw - Draw (in that case, tho, Couture would have still won, but it would have been a more 'honourable' loss, & nobody would have whined about it, tbh...)

    > Handy dominated the 1st part of the 1st Rd with dirty boxin´
    > then TK showcased his judo skills & got a nice TD, dominatin´the 2nd part of the round
    > Accidental headbutt while TK is on top
    > 2nd Rd: TK´s still game but possibly limited by the cut, slightly fadin´, while Couture´s pressure faded too.

    In that same tournament, Ryushi Yanagisawa [historical 'Pancrasist'], for instance, got a better result against Couture, without [arguably] doin´much more:
    Draw - Couture x 2

    Overall, this 'TK narrative' doesnt seem quite realistic, tbh...

    END of the 1st PART.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
    scottjoebob, estranged and HHJ like this.
  3. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    Missin´s Gifs/Pics:

    a/ "I was at Fedor's corner at that time":

    Multiple angles ´round Maeda, The Man with The Legendary Red Jacket:

    maeda 1.png maeda 3.png maeda 5.png maeda 7.png maeda 10 decision.png maeda 11 dec.png vlcsnap-2019-08-23-11h12m43s145.png

    corner walk back 1.png corner walk back 2.png corner walk back 3.png
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
    scottjoebob likes this.
  4. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    Missin´ Gifs/Pics:

    d/ "At that time, The judges gave it to Arona. I walked up to Maeda.."

    maeda TK vs Handy.gif

    shadow ok chek.png

    maeda 6 shadow chek.png maeda 9 shadow chek.png

    but...was a Japanese staff member, not Volk [1m90 / 107 kg]...

    shadow staff chek.png
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
    scottjoebob likes this.
  5. leatherneck

    Jul 26, 2010
    Likes Received:
    TS is still editing the OP,

    but somehow i know this will end badly.
    FireKidWS likes this.
  6. Eiffel-sixtyFight Blue Belt

    Jul 31, 2020
    Likes Received:
    This has potential
    HHJ likes this.
  7. Kdup Purple Belt

    Jan 27, 2019
    Likes Received:
    I like it
    leatherneck likes this.
  8. Coconutwater Brown Belt

    Jun 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    I don’t know about fixing the fight, it is all too confusing for me to follow. That said, Arona was robbed. Fedor lost that fight.
  9. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    We´ll try to assess that in Decons 39.2 ...
  10. Kdup Purple Belt

    Jan 27, 2019
    Likes Received:
    I’ll say Arona won, and I will also say it’s a possibility that the japs wanted the japs to win, as said by Hicardo.
  11. Coconutwater Brown Belt

    Jun 23, 2013
    Likes Received:

    My man... it does not need further investigation, Arona controlled the ground game for the most part, secured more takedowns and was not hit cleanly with any thing. Conversely, Fedor was rendered largely ineffective on the feet by Arona’s constant shooting, he was mounted and side-controlled many times and bloodied.

    One should not count those ill-conceived guillotine attempts since Fedor held many will under side-control. But hey... whatever floats your boat....
    CerebralKnievel likes this.
  12. RichardHarrow 'arrow

    Nov 28, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Not reading that
  13. kellenn Banned Banned

    Aug 7, 2020
    Likes Received:
    Arona was robbed

    If punches from mount were legal he'd have caved Fedor's face in
  14. I WILL CUT YOU Calamity from the Heavens Platinum Member

    Feb 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    Osotogari City
    If guns were legal John Rambo would be GOAT

    If your grandma had wheel she'd be a bike
  15. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    BJ no.gif

    B why.gif

    Patience, young men. All these narratives will be assessed in due time.

    gono believe me.gif
    Coconutwater likes this.
  16. axe wound Garter Belt

    Dec 1, 2006
    Likes Received:
    The Lucky Country
    i'm not currently in a position to make this kind of investment
    leatherneck likes this.
  17. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    helax tamura.gif

    Helax, mate, nobody´s gonna u-sound-poor ya in those Decons...

  18. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    hmm...but how do you explain that Ryushi Yanagisawa [historical 'Pancrasist'] got a better result than TK, against Couture, without [arguably] doin´much more:
    Draw - Couture x 2
  19. george14 Purple Belt

    Jun 6, 2016
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    It was a draw heading into the overtime period. Fedor won the overtime period.
  20. gono btw Rounds...

    Mar 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    was actually a MD: Arona - D x 2

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