Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Chesten_Hesten, May 22, 2014.
Like my friend said when word of this went out. "Dude, don't judge so quickly. Many different people live in that region, and it could have been any.....And it was the Muslims."
Didn't see this coming, right? Sad day. I will give my hopes to those hurt, and killed.
I'm sure they had some sort of social statement to make. I don't even want to hear or try to understand that message. They're evil fucks. I saw way too much of this crap in Iraq.
China won't be as reluctant and caring of "human rights" and "civil liberties" when dealing with this.
Mr. Xi is very weak on the security, he should have started droning these terrorists along with their brothers in Tibet a long time ago.
Nuh uh bro, that doesn't matter. They are just misunderstood. Ask any College Professor, they'll point you in the right direction...
I've followed this a bit when I was doing a peace and conflict studies class a while back. Essentially the nature of the situation has changed quite a bit in the past 15 years. While Uighur resentments remain the same, the driving force behind such attacks have changed. It's no longer dominated by Turkic nationalism, but have taken a hardline Islamic note. More and more Wahabism from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan is creeping into China. The religious undertone of these attacks are worrisome, considering there are more than 20 million Muslims in China.
On the positive side, Chinese Muslims make delicious food.
The Religion of War.
That brand of fanaticism is to be respected, not in the good way but in the opponent way. What gets me though is the level of violence some of these guys are willing to go to over such small infractions. These fuckers are ready to KILL if you so much as draw a Mohammed cartoon and that is just one example. They take extremism to the next level if that is even possible.
I wonder if the idiots in this thread know anything about the situation they're commenting on?
-The Xingjiang was predominantly Uigher but due to mass immigration they now make up ~40% (Their homeland has been stolen)
-Their language and culture in under attack, it is illegal for men to keep beards and women to wear headscarves (Seems pretty disrespectful to tell the NATIVES of a region to change their customs), also they use a different language, Mandarin is becoming more common place (Press #2 for Spanish)
-The Han are now the political power in the region also (Imagine Philadelphia with no black cops or something)
And another reminder, this is CHINA you're defending, it's pretty hard to get info from areas they don't want you to, no the most "free" place in the world
idiots, he says.....
I disagree with your assertion that the Uighur resentments remain the same. In the last fifteen years, there has been a concerted effort by the Han government to destroy Uighur culture and fold it into the rest of China. Specifically, the attempts to eradicate and/or marginalize the Uighur language and culture has created a lot of resentment. Likwise, with the explosiion of the economy and Han middle class, Uighurs, rightly or wrongly, believe they are intentionally being left out.
I agree that increasing fundamentalism is part of why it is a problem, but would counter that the reason for it is increased dissatifaction among the Uighurs. Just like in other countries, when you create a hopeless and bitter people, they tend to be more attracted to violent fundamentalism as a way to express their frustrations.
China dicks around with tons of minorities, suppressing their culture and supplanting them with Han immigrants, not just the Uyghurs. But few of the other minorities are quite so prone to fighting back with terrorism, so you don't hear about it as much. Tibet is the main exception, you hear a fair bit about their repression and domination by the Han. But Tibetans aren't quite as prone to bombing ... they've done a bit of it, but only a sliver as much as the Uyghurs.
Not really easy solutions for the Uyghurs, terrorism isn't likely to gain them jack with the Chinese government, and the world more broadly hates terrorism so much that they will become the bad guy by relying so much on terrorism (cue the Tamil Tigers, whose terrorism addiction lost them any sympathy they might otherwise have received from the global community). On the other hand, Tibet and its cause have huge worldwide popularity, and look how well that's worked out for them. Bottom line China is too important to the global economy, and will be allowed to do whatever it wants with these isolated central Asian regions.
Obviously you have not compared the efforts of today to Mao's era. The Chinese policy in Xinjiang today are pretty tame compared to its policy prior to 1980's. The were reports of whole villages being wiped out while cracking down on separatism during Mao's reign. Since the Mao's death, there was a significant increase in Uighur population. Whatever increased or decreased resentment, the religious undertone replacing Turkic nationalism as the driving force behind the attack is not a good development for central Asia.
If the attacks kept going, the Chinese government might be pressured by Han nationalism to re-introduce the harsher measures of Mao's era. These incident are not doing Uighurs any good if they are attempting to voice their dissatisfaction. The international community would lose sympathy for their cause for autonomy/independence, while encouraging more discrimination against Uighurs inside China.
These terrorists are digging their own graves. The Chinese government could give a jackshit about human rights; they are giving the PRC an excuse to crack down even harder. They are literally asking for a Holocaust.
No. I am familiar with the Mao era. Obviously, things have changed since then.
Uighurs are more pissed at the Han now than they have been since the '80's. Their resentment comes from concerted attempts by Han to erase Uighur language and culture.
I agree that the terrorism isn't doing the Uighurs any favors. I am saying that the cause of the terrorism is the increased adoption of violent religion, which in turn is caused by increased oppression of Uighurs and their dissatisfaction with their place in modern China.
You can't get to the source of the problem without looking at history of the region, which is long and troubled. It was first inhabited by nomadic tribes and city states until Han dynasty drove out the Xiongnu. That was when the first Han settlers established the first outposts in the region around 150 BCE. After the fall of Han dynasty, the Chinese pulled back due to internal strife, where nomads moved back in. This occurred around 250 ACE, and the Chinese would not return to the region until three centuries later during Sui Dynasty.
Turkic tribes started to move into the region around 7th century, where they fought several major wars against Sui/Tang dynasty of China. The Chinese were able to use internal divisions of Turkic tribes to divide and conquer them one by one. Some of them were driven out, while other made pacts with the Chinese. One of those tribes that allied with the Chinese was the Uyghur Khaganate, which later rose to prominence in Central Asia after Tang empire fractured after a major rebellion in the mid 8th century. After that, Han settlements and presence in the region disappeared.
Fast forward to Qing Dynasty, where the Manchus ruled China. They greatly expanded the borders of the previous Ming Dynasty, pushing into Central Asia and Siberia. As Manchus were from northeastern China and unfamiliar with the region, they named it Xinjiang. It literally means new territory, a source of resentment for many Uighrs who saw this as evidence of being occupied. The collapse of Qing was followed by several decades of chaos in China, which Uighurs briefly declared independence in Xinjiang before being crushed again the 1930's.
Now the ethnic issue is almost unsolvable. Many Uighurs view Han as invaders and occupiers, which allowed Turkic nationalism then Wahabism to grow. Han Chinese on the other hand, generally have disdain against Uighurs and consider themselves to have settled into the region first. Obviously none of them are going to give any ground, so conflict was inevitable. However, I do not see Uighurs being able to get any favorable outcome by engaging in violent resistance, especially against civilians. The world is very unforgiving on acts of terrorism after 911, and that just might give Chinese government a blank check to tighten their grip.
Also, there was a period of relative ease on policies against Uighurs after Mao's death. Large numbers of mosques and religious institutions were built, and Uighur language was once against allowed in public institutions. These were not possible during Mao's era. I doubt the current efforts to erase Uighur language and culture are more severe than they had been prior to 1980's, yet the attacks are growing in numbers. My fear is that it will lead to Chinese government and public to think that the near genocidal policy of Mao was more effective than dialogue, integration and reconciliation at keeping the peace.
I think we are more or less in agreement. The one thing I would quibble about is the relevance of "it was worse under Mao". Sure it was. But since then there was a period of tolerance. It is the retreat from that tolerance that has Uighers' jimmies especially rustled.