$25 million in Bonuses for a UFC Executive, Who's Probably Dana White White

[kflo]

Yes, that's what people who love Dana miss. The UFC values control over profit. If they made Jones/Nganno, they would make money off it. But they're scared of what it will mean dowm the road more than that.

the ufc values profit and long term value. that's what most businesses value.

are you really trying to paint this discussion as pro vs anti dana now?

 

[avenue94]

pay increases when industry pay increases. the more successful mma is as a whole, the more it raises up pay across the board and the more pressure it puts on salaries across the board. again, i know you want to pretend the ufc is the only promoter, but it is the spread of mma beyond the ufc that impacts the ufc. and that comes back to fan interest in the sport. at the local level, at the higher levels, globally, etc.

and i still find it unlikely the lawsuit will result in too much dramatic change. the attorney's representing the plaintiffs don't give a fuck about future changes. they get paid off of a settlement.

That's a really big assumption given their lawsuit struggles. And the UFC has 85 percent of the top 15 talent, so they are the preeminent promoter by far.

the ufc values profit and long term value. that's what most businesses value.

Not particularly, I'm just pointing out that the UFC has often left money on the table in order to preserve that magical 20 percent fight pay number. And that there is a lot more winging it than people think. If the UFC truly valued long term outlook, they would actually scout and develop prospects, but they don't.

 

[kflo]

When WME was pitching the IPO, that was the common question reported in news articles. The quotes are mine to show it's a question, not that it's an exact quote.

you have any of those news articles?

I've never hid that I'm talking about wage share, not absolutes. Since wage share is the important part for most athletes, especially given the UFC roster has ballooned in size over the past decade. Just come on, it's pathetic that most UFC stars are making worse money than boxing stars 50 years ago without adjusting for inflation. All while Dana bloviates about being the 2nd or 3rd largest sport in the world lol.

most athletes care first about absolute, of course, then wage share. you think pitbull is bragging that his wage share is greater than khabib's?

You would be wrong. The UFC had more than double the revenue of Amazon in 2020 and 4 or 5 times the EBITDBA margin. So yes, Dana and company are even more greedy than Amazon. I don't think you understand how rare a near 50 percent profit margin is if you are running a legal business. Let alone businesses that run 20 to 30 percent labor costs. Would you like to try again with a whataboutism?
Edit: ignore this last part, I got my M's and B's mixed up while reading on my phone.

how's it possible you believed this for even a second?

 

[kflo]

That's a really big assumption given their lawsuit struggles. And the UFC has 85 percent of the top 15 talent, so they are the preeminent promoter by far.

it's not a big assumption. it's how it works. and yes, they are the biggest promotion.....

Not particularly, I'm just pointing out that the UFC has often left money on the table in order to preserve that magical 20 percent fight pay number. And that there is a lot more winging it than people think. If the UFC truly valued long term outlook, they would actually scout and develop prospects, but they don't.

when have they done that and what's your source? investors care most about shareholder return and price appreciation.

and what is "winging it" and where did you get that?

why would they develop prospects? that's not their business. they mostly scout prospects from other orgs. not sure why you think you are giving them business advice on how to drive long term value creation.

 

[You Will Vote For Dreyga]

If the UFC truly valued long term outlook, they would actually scout and develop prospects, but they don't.

They do. They are doing just that in their UFC Academy at the Shanghai Performance Institute. They even created the first ever MMA combine and have plans to build more PIs across the globe

 

[avenue94]

you have any of those news articles?

Not on hand, I'll post it if I find it. John Nash has mentioned it several times, so likely from his work.

most athletes care first about absolute, of course, then wage share. you think pitbull is bragging that his wage share is greater than khabib's?

Again, if that was the case, there wouldn't be a class action lawsuit. Not to mention that your absolute wage is heavily capped when wage share is capped.

how's it possible you believed this for even a second?

I got bad eyes, let's go with that.

when have they done that and what's your source? investors care most about shareholder return and price appreciation.

They never made Brock/Fedor, even though they were internally projecting 2 million buys. And they are agonizing over making Jones/Ngannou, a guaranteed 1 million buy event.

why would they develop prospects? that's not their business. they mostly scout prospects from other orgs. not sure why you think you are giving them business advice on how to drive long term value creation

I'm not giving them advice, this is sherdog. I'm just pointing out you need stars. Not now since the ESPN deal still has a few years on it. But they're going to need something when negotiating for their TV deal because mediocre fight nights and PPVs aren't going to cut it at that point. Every other sport scouts and develops talent, it's pretty important from the financial perspective.

 

[avenue94]

They do. They are doing just that in their UFC Academy at the Shanghai Performance Institute. They even created the first ever MMA combine and have plans to build more PIs across the globe

That doesn't cancel out what I said. The UFC is still not great at developing talent. Their main source is still the Contender's Series, which is more just a mill for cheap fighters, not actually a systemic development process.

 

[You Will Vote For Dreyga]

That doesn't cancel out what I said. The UFC is still not great at developing talent. Their main source is still the Contender's Series, which is more just a mill for cheap fighters, not actually a systemic development process.

But they are currently in the process of developing a comprehensive and systematic athlete development system. You clearly mistaken when you claimed they didn’t have a long term outlook.

 

[kflo]

Not on hand, I'll post it if I find it. John Nash has mentioned it several times, so likely from his work.

thx

Again, if that was the case, there wouldn't be a class action lawsuit. Not to mention that your absolute wage is heavily capped when wage share is capped.

the class action is of course in part because their absolute wages weren't to their liking. if they were making $1m per fight and only 20% i'm pretty sure there would be no class action.

I got bad eyes, let's go with that.

allowed...

They never made Brock/Fedor, even though they were internally projecting 2 million buys. And they are agonizing over making Jones/Ngannou, a guaranteed 1 million buy event.

it's not they "never made" brock fedor. they never signed fedor, but not because they didn't simply offer enough money. and you don't know what's happening with jones negotiations. agonizing is only your word.

I'm not giving them advice, this is sherdog. I'm just pointing out you need stars. Not now since the ESPN deal still has a few years on it. But they're going to need something when negotiating for their TV deal because mediocre fight nights and PPVs aren't going to cut it at that point. Every other sport scouts and develops talent, it's pretty important from the financial perspective.

the ufc scouts talent. that's how they sign fighters. they aren't a development league (at least not at entry level)

and they still make money from higher ppv sales and it's obviously in their interest to have more viewers. they have lots of tv deals globally.

 

[avenue94]

But they are currently in the process of developing a comprehensive and systematic athlete development system. You clearly mistaken when you claimed they didn’t have a long term outlook.

They have some, but let's not pretend the UFC has been great with seeing the future or picking out prospects and stars to push. I also didn't say they have no long term outlook, just that there is more winging it and less rigorous planning than people think.

if they were making $1m per fight and only 20% i'm pretty sure there would be no class action.

Possibly (a million per fight is still nowhere near boxing pay, which will always sting for mma athletes). But again, the UFC can't pay everyone a million or even that many fighters a million each if they are capping wage share in advance.

it's not they "never made" brock fedor. they never signed fedor, but not because they didn't simply offer enough money. and you don't know what's happening with jones negotiations. agonizing is only your word.

They tried to sign, and the sticking point was copromotion with M-1. I don't fully blame the UFC there, but it's also a problem that could have been solved with more money in all likelihood. That copromotion is so anathema in mma is a separate problem. Again, 2 million buys means north of 50 million to go around, probably more since they could have picked up a lot of European/Russian sponsorship that the UFC wouldn't normally tap in to. If the UFC offered Fedor and Brock 10 or 15 million each, that fight would have likely happened. Or just pay M-1 an extra 10 million or whatever to make them shut up about copromotion and be a silent partner.

and they still make money from higher ppv sales and it's obviously in their interest to have more viewers. they have lots of tv deals globally.

Yeah, but they can afford to wait out stars like Jones or Conor. They don't need stars during the ESPN deal, it's for when they're shopping around after.

the ufc scouts talent. that's how they sign fighters. they aren't a development league (at least not at entry level)

They sign whoever they find for cheap when they need to fil a slot, there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason to it, especially on the Contender series. Dana's gut isn't exactly great at finding elite talent most of the time, which is essentially what the Contender series is supposed to be. If there was, Greg Hardy's development deal would have gone to an actual prospect with non-rapey eyes.

 

[Arnold Palmer]

UFC vs. ONE

 

[snackgod]

That in of itself is fine. It's more food for thought for people who think the UFC is barely breaking even or doesn't have the money to pay fighters more. It's a matter of doesn't want to, not an inability to.

At this point, likely not. Hard to claim your guy is the best fighter in the world when the UFC has 85 percent of the top 15 across all divisions locked up. Critical mass is very important. The barriers to entry in the mma market are abnormally high.

Yeah, crucial. But not as crucial as all the star fighters combined. That should be evident considering how few PPV stars the UFC has at one time. With Dana, the UFC find another warm body. Without GSP and Silva, the UFC doesn't break into Canada or get onto Fox.

Worker harder in a more stressful job/life is not the same as the job being more technically demanding or demanding on a person's abilities and faculties. I didn't say that hypothetical single parent deserves more than Dana. Just pointing out Dana's pay is not based off hard work since that's not how pay in most of the world works.

When WME was pitching the IPO, that was the common question reported in news articles. The quotes are mine to show it's a question, not that it's an exact quote.

I've never hid that I'm talking about wage share, not absolutes. Since wage share is the important part for most athletes, especially given the UFC roster has ballooned in size over the past decade. Just come on, it's pathetic that most UFC stars are making worse money than boxing stars 50 years ago without adjusting for inflation. All while Dana bloviates about being the 2nd or 3rd largest sport in the world lol.

You would be wrong. The UFC had more than double the revenue of Amazon in 2020 and 4 or 5 times the EBITDBA margin. So yes, Dana and company are even more greedy than Amazon. I don't think you understand how rare a near 50 percent profit margin is if you are running a legal business. Let alone businesses that run 20 to 30 percent labor costs. Would you like to try again with a whataboutism?
Edit: ignore this last part, I got my M's and B's mixed up while reading on my phone.

the owner of amazon remade back in profits in 2020 in a few months the setttlement he paid his exwife in there divorce.

i didnt know the ufc had 20 billion in profits in like 4 months in 2020.

 

[kflo]

They have some, but let's not pretend the UFC has been great with seeing the future or picking out prospects and stars to push. I also didn't say they have no long term outlook, just that there is more winging it and less rigorous planning than people think.

Possibly (a million per fight is still nowhere near boxing pay, which will always sting for mma athletes). But again, the UFC can't pay everyone a million or even that many fighters a million each if they are capping wage share in advance.

They tried to sign, and the sticking point was copromotion with M-1. I don't fully blame the UFC there, but it's also a problem that could have been solved with more money in all likelihood. That copromotion is so anathema in mma is a separate problem. Again, 2 million buys means north of 50 million to go around, probably more since they could have picked up a lot of European/Russian sponsorship that the UFC wouldn't normally tap in to. If the UFC offered Fedor and Brock 10 or 15 million each, that fight would have likely happened. Or just pay M-1 an extra 10 million or whatever to make them shut up about copromotion and be a silent partner.

Yeah, but they can afford to wait out stars like Jones or Conor. They don't need stars during the ESPN deal, it's for when they're shopping around after.

They sign whoever they find for cheap when they need to fil a slot, there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason to it, especially on the Contender series. Dana's gut isn't exactly great at finding elite talent most of the time, which is essentially what the Contender series is supposed to be. If there was, Greg Hardy's development deal would have gone to an actual prospect with non-rapey eyes.

on one side you claim the ufc has all the best talent and on the other you claim the ufc is poor at finding talent and just fill slots on the cheap. both can't be true.

 

[Straatblaffer]

@avenue94 what became of Endeavor buying out the other 49.9% partners? Did that happen? Or is it a work in progress? And is the IPO predicated on that deal going through?

If ur interested in that stuff, I recommended following Bloosy Elbow's Show Money Podcast my John Nash. It goes in depth about finances and is pretty interesting

 

[avenue94]

the owner of amazon remade back in profits in 2020 in a few months the setttlement he paid his exwife in there divorce.

i didnt know the ufc had 20 billion in profits in like 4 months in 2020.

Yeah I misread. But no sure what relevance Amazon has to the UFC.

on one side you claim the ufc has all the best talent and on the other you claim the ufc is poor at finding talent and just fill slots on the cheap. both can't be true.

You'll have most of the best talent when you have a roster with 600 fighters. You'll also have a lot of chaff essentially. Both can be true. Think efficiency or success rate at developing prospects and future draws.

 

[kflo]

Yeah I misread. But no sure what relevance Amazon has to the UFC.

You'll have most of the best talent when you have a roster with 600 fighters. You'll also have a lot of chaff essentially. Both can be true. Think efficiency or success rate at developing prospects and future draws.

so they are effective in getting talent. again, it's impossible to end up with all the best talent (according to you) and be ineffective in sourcing talent.

 

[snackgod]

Yeah I misread. But no sure what relevance Amazon has to the UFC.

You'll have most of the best talent when you have a roster with 600 fighters. You'll also have a lot of chaff essentially. Both can be true. Think efficiency or success rate at developing prospects and future draws.

my point is if you dont think companies that make money dont give out bonus to the higher ups your crazy.

 

[avenue94]

so they are effective in getting talent. again, it's impossible to end up with all the best talent (according to you) and be ineffective in sourcing talent.

Effective, yes. Efficient, no. Being mediocre at developing talent and having the majority of the elite talent under your umbrella are not mutually exclusive.

my point is if you dont think companies that make money dont give out bonus to the higher ups your crazy.

I've never argued executives don't or shouldn't get bonuses. Not sure where you're getting that. What I've pointed out is that model could be extended to fighters without bankrupting bankrupting UFC.

 

[snackgod]

Effective, yes. Efficient, no. Being mediocre at developing talent and having the majority of the elite talent under your umbrella are not mutually exclusive.

I've never argued executives don't or shouldn't get bonuses. Not sure where you're getting that. What I've pointed out is that model could be extended to fighters without bankrupting bankrupting UFC.

if bet viacom executives get alot more than the fighters on the prelims.

 

[kflo]

Effective, yes. Efficient, no. Being mediocre at developing talent and having the majority of the elite talent under your umbrella are not mutually exclusive.

I've never argued executives don't or shouldn't get bonuses. Not sure where you're getting that. What I've pointed out is that model could be extended to fighters without bankrupting bankrupting UFC.

You said they aren’t good at FINDING elite talent. Yet you say they HAVE all the elite talent. Those are indeed mutually exclusive.

Anyway, carry on...