Elections 2020 Democratic Primary Thread v4

Who do you support most out of the remaining Democratic candidates?

  • Tom Steyer (Entrepreneur)

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So you decline to back up your claim with anything at all, I see.

No, I referred you to another source of information.

I read the article you posted, it has absolutely no relevant data on anything regarding the current primary, or the coming general election. It's a poor opinion piece disguised as analysis.

Incorrect. But I think if your approach is to just pretend not to have seen what you saw and to determine quality of analysis by whether it tells you what you want to hear, it's kind of pointless. You're arguing like a lawyer rather than like an analyst.
 
You do realize that persons can have justifiable low opinions of other people right? Ones that don't impute to all other persons like them?

Yes, but calling Frum a "witless hack" is pretty strong evidence that you are not thinking rationally. Frum got two degrees from Yale, a JD from Harvard, has a long history of success in various fields (and is currently a senior editor at one of the top magazines in the world). You can't honestly think that he's "witless," and he's been arguing hard against his own preferred party so "hack" in the sense of political hack is obviously false, too. Just be honest about the naked tribalism here.

You entered the thread calling posters, including myself, "Berniebots." I returned fire. I, again, have no interest in litigating something that is settled to nearly every single interested person on this forum. In such a pissing match with you, I have nothing to gain and many brain cells to lose. For that, you can call me a "cuck" or whatever childish shorthand you move onto next.

There are posters here, including you, who are Berniebots (that is, who are so passionate in their fandom for Bernie that you aren't able to address points rationally and just lash out angrily at people not in your tribe).

Alternatively, how about you stop quoting me?

Suggestion noted.

Given your demonstrated lack of knowledge on logical fallacies, I'll give you a pass on this being a comically lazy straw man argument.

"Demonstrated" doesn't mean what you think it does. And LOL at the idea that you know more than me about logic. We both know that you don't even believe that.

We can ask any number of higher end right-wing posters - like InternetHero, Alan, TheGreatA, HockeyBJJ - that will attest that I can be reached by reason and that will likely attest as well that you are too weighted down by your pettiness, fragility, and delusions of grandeur to have productive discourse across the/any aisle and that, also, you're just not a pleasant or humorous person to make up for it.

You certainly have an interesting idea of "higher-end" right-wing posters if you're including Hockey. You have previously expressed appreciation for my humor, but since you no longer consider me to be in your tribe, I'm suddenly unpleasant and lacking in humor. It's just like you saying that Frum is dumb.

Yeah, no you haven't.

A) I have.
B) You are lying about having gotten that.

Everyone here has watched you and Fawlty's really sad and grisly decline into madness. For both of you, it's ugly. But I will concede that for him it has been more troubling since, for him, it wasn't directly the result of being publicly embarrassed and isn't directly traceable to a long-observed personality defect. That is, I worry that he's legitimately going through problems. For you, it's just a matter that you're a very flawed person at your core.

Of course, Trots. Everyone who disagrees with you is a flawed person at their core and some kind of monster or undergoing personal problems.
 
Yes, but calling Frum a "witless hack" is pretty strong evidence that you are not thinking rationally. Frum got two degrees from Yale, a JD from Harvard, has a long history of success in various fields (and is currently a senior editor at one of the top magazines in the world). You can't honestly think that he's "witless," and he's been arguing hard against his own preferred party so "hack" in the sense of political hack is obviously false, too. Just be honest about the naked tribalism here.

So you're just falling back on pedantry as usual. No, I do not think Frum is legitimately below average intelligence. And, obviously, no reasonable observer would presume that or think of being so pedantic. I characterized him as "witless" because he's generally not a dynamic thinker and has been unable to free himself from the same American conservative suppositions that were so proved outdated in 2016 when his movement left him so isolated. I called him a "hack" because he's willing to propagate bad faith arguments that other badly motivated partisans have put forward despite there being ample evidence discrediting them (which I provided you) and despite him clearly being able to grasp that evidence.

There are posters here, including you, who are Berniebots (that is, who are so passionate in their fandom for Bernie that you aren't able to address points rationally and just lash out angrily at people not in your tribe).

And yet no one else here has made that allegation, to me at last, other than you - and directly after embarrassing yourself by making an irrational and emotional stand against reality last month.

"Demonstrated" doesn't mean what you think it does. And LOL at the idea that you know more than me about logic. We both know that you don't even believe that.

In re your first sentence, we can notch another title for your pathological, but surely heroic nevertheless, lack of self-awareness. As for your chest thumping, no, I don't respect your grasp of logic whatsoever. I've called you a good writer and a smart man generally, but I've never held your logic or your honesty in too-too high a regard. Though, to be sure, it's entirely possible that your chronic "doesn't mean what you think it means" posts are more due to your dishonesty than your not knowing better.

Of course, Trots. Everyone who disagrees with you is a flawed person at their core and some kind of monster or undergoing personal problems.

Hmm, no. Fawlty has still never to date actually disagreed with me on any particular issue. It's purely venom. And given that no less than three disinterested posters yesterday asked some form of "who pissed in his cornflakes." Also, I can't think of a specific time that you disagreed with me either, except for when you lashed out about it not being true that there were reasonable bases for casual voters to think Trump the dove and Hillary the hawk or that there was prevalent public sentiment to that miscalculation. Since embarrassing yourself then, it's been a matter of personal vendetta to you. No real political or ideological issues.

Also, you're being silly. There are posters who disagree with me much more than you do who I hold in the highest regard in terms of their mental wellness and moral character. Gandhi, for instance, is someone for whom I hold an enormous amount of respect, despite him being much farther from me than you are politically.
 
So you're just falling back on pedantry as usual.

No, I'm responding to the substance of your point by noting that you are letting tribalism severely impair your judgment.

No, I do not think Frum is legitimately below average intelligence. And, obviously, no reasonable observer would presume that or think of being so pedantic. I characterized him as "witless" because he's generally not a dynamic thinker and has been unable to free himself from the same American conservative suppositions that were so proved outdated in 2016 when his movement left him so isolated. I called him a "hack" because he's willing to propagate bad faith arguments that other badly motivated partisans have put forward despite there being ample evidence discrediting them (which I provided you) and despite him clearly being able to grasp that evidence.

I don't recall you providing any evidence discrediting his arguments, and I don't think you have any basis for accusing him of arguing in bad-faith other than that he doesn't agree with you. And shifting to "not a dynamic thinker" is just a way to cast aspersions on his intelligence while acknowledging the strong evidence that he is well above average. Why do you even feel the need to do that? You can just say that you think he got something wrong. Or maybe *you* can't.

And yet no one else here has made that allegation, to me at last, other than you - and directly after embarrassing yourself by making an irrational and emotional stand against reality last month.

???

In re your first sentence, we can notch another title for your pathological, but surely heroic nevertheless, lack of self-awareness. As for your chest thumping, no, I don't respect your grasp of logic whatsoever.

Of course you do. It's a ridiculous charge. You have a long history of making the opposite claim.

I've called you a good writer and a smart man generally, but I've never held your logic or your honesty in too-too high a regard. Though, to be sure, it's entirely possible that your chronic "doesn't mean what you think it means" posts are more due to your dishonesty than your not knowing better.

And again, you will never be able to produce an example of dishonesty from me or any logical failing. These charges are obviously along the same lines as you calling Frum dumb.

Hmm, no. Fawlty has still never to date actually disagreed with me on any particular issue. It's purely venom. And given that no less than three disinterested posters yesterday asked some form of "who pissed in his cornflakes." Also, I can't think of a specific time that you disagreed with me either, except for when you lashed out about it not being true that there were reasonable bases for casual voters to think Trump the dove and Hillary the hawk or that there was prevalent public sentiment to that miscalculation. Since embarrassing yourself then, it's been a matter of personal vendetta to you. No real political or ideological issues.

Let me note here that we have a clear example of you saying something that you know is false. You keep trying to blow up a small argument (that I was right about, of course) into some kind of vendetta on my part. I showed that you were wrong on that one and moved on. Where I had a serious moral objection was to your attempt to mischaracterize me as some kind of big Clinton fan. Just a scuzzy move on your part to avoid dealing with arguments.
 
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That Atlantic article (by David Frum of all people) in particular encapsulates everything wrong with Sanders criticism. He tries to discredit his chances by painting his base as infected by "toxic masculinity", with weak black and female support. And then goes on to present Buttigieg and Bloomberg as better alternatives lmao.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/bernie-sanderss-biggest-challenges/605500/
The same CNN poll that showed Sanders tied with Biden among Democrats showed that Biden still leads Sanders 45–24 on electability. That seems a shrewd intuition. If Biden falters, Democrats have other options available: Michael Bloomberg and Pete Buttigieg, who are also exploring the left-but-not-woke terrain blazed by Sanders.

There are many ways to divide the Democratic field: by ideology, by gender, by ethnicity, by age. But perhaps the most important is this: For Buttigieg, for Bloomberg, as for me and very likely for you, reader of The Atlantic, one of the most decisive days of our lives was the day we received the fat envelope of acceptance from a selective educational institution.​
David Frum, Champion of the Left
 
So the most generous excerpt of the article you could find calls Sanders irascible and negligible, and claims he doesn't have the support of "suburban" women and African Americans (not actually the case) which will decide the election against Trump (inferring Sanders wont win the matchup), adds in a "personal deficiency" and Joe Rogan dig, and that's supposed to prove what now? I don't see how this is the laudable piece you think it is. Not saying it's a hit piece either, but I mean, it's pretty bad.
I think David missed an opportunity to add Sanders to the Axis of Evil.
 
I don't think it will work. Bernie has been attacked consistenly since 2016. They've digged up pretty much everything on him and have already used it. It didn't stick. Now they are resorting to attacks that are either contrary to the evidence out there and easily dispelled, like "Bernie does the worst against Trump", or just rehashing old ones like "Bernie is a socialist".


I was just about to post this. Here is the clip from MSNBC with the timestamp:


So basically he's sending out campaign emails saying that Bernie polls the worst against Trump out of any candidate (straight up lie), then completely rambles and doesn't answer the question when asked about it.

Mine has a little bonus footage at the end if you haven’t already seen it :D
 
No, I'm responding to the substance of your point by noting that you are letting tribalism severely impair your judgment.

Because you are unable or unwilling to argue on the merits. Because that is the sort of character and motivations that you possess.

I don't recall you providing any evidence discrediting his arguments, and I don't think you have any basis for accusing him of arguing in bad-faith other than that he doesn't agree with you. And shifting to "not a dynamic thinker" is just a way to cast aspersions on his intelligence while acknowledging the strong evidence that he is well above average. Why do you even feel the need to do that? You can just say that you think he got something wrong. Or maybe *you* can't.

The fact that you cannot surmise someone being intelligent but intellectually rigid and prone to blind spots is not surprising given the political figure that you most adore and hold beyond reproach and given your own lack of self-awareness. Also, you can see admitting being wrong as recently as last night with regard to blaming CNN for the Warren leaks. In fact, I revise my positions and take responsibility for my missteps quite often. Because I'm an adult. You realistically do so less than any left-wing poster here by far.

And again, you will never be able to produce an example of dishonesty from me or any logical failing.

This is the same line you use to every person, left or right, smart or dumb, on this forum. Of course I'm not going to attempt to hold you to an example of dishonesty, because you'll very obviously deny it and mitigate it to death. And, frankly, I can't think of examples more vivid and spectacular than those in the aforementioned exchange on foreign policy optics.

Let me note here that we have a clear example of you saying something that you know is false. You keep trying to blow up a small argument (that I was right about, of course) into some kind of vendetta on my part. I showed that you were wrong on that one and moved on.

That you can seriously debase yourself to say that you were right really goes to show how remarkably dishonest and/or delusional you really are. There's a reason you dropped that matter: because you had been proven, beyond a doubt, to be horribly, horribly mistaken. And it showed that you got emotional and went directly to insults due to being faced with simple, unobjectionable reality.

Where I had a serious moral objection was to your attempt to mischaracterize me as some kind of big Clinton fan. Just a scuzzy move on your part to avoid dealing with arguments.

You're certainly an incredible liar. I very civilly laid out uncontroversial post, to which you replied, "huh, sounds crazy" and then insulted me by saying I was detached from reality because a....short clip that you found on the internet didn't contain some debate moments that I was referencing.

Then, after being provided quotes and articles on the matter - of there being well-established discussions on how Trump had shifted the foreign policy positions of the two parties so that he appeared more doveish and Clinton more hawkish - you continued to just piss into the wind because your ego couldn't let you civilly admit being wrong. It's a seriously pathological trait and you stick out from the left-wing crowd in this regard. It's a truly Republican voter-esque characteristic.
 


From a woman who has lied about pretty much every detail of her life.

This is the way many progressives think. Rules are for everyone else. Like degenerate royals and aristocrats in the past (and present in some cultures) legislating morality and the sanctity of marriage while keeping mistresses and concubines and so on.
 


From a woman who has lied about pretty much every detail of her life.

This is the way many progressives think. Rules are for everyone else. Like degenerate royals and aristocrats in the past (and present in some cultures) legislating morality and the sanctity of marriage while keeping mistresses and concubines and so on.


She should be put inside a rocket and fired towards the sun.

her and mayor Pete have this ugly competition of who is the most phony candidate running.
 
Because you are unable or unwilling to argue on the merits. Because that is the sort of character and motivations that you possess.

This doesn't even make sense as a response. Calm down and think, and then post.

The fact that you cannot surmise someone being intelligent but intellectually rigid and prone to blind spots is not surprising given the political figure that you most adore and hold beyond reproach and given your own lack of self-awareness.

Um, genius, you're the guy who called a very intelligent person who dared to disagree with you a "witless hack" (and whose arguments you were unable to address on their merits). And then when called on it, you got embarrassed about your previous claim and backtracked to a vaguer attack.

This is the same line you use to every person, left or right, smart or dumb, on this forum. Of course I'm not going to attempt to hold you to an example of dishonesty, because you'll very obviously deny it and mitigate it to death. And, frankly, I can't think of examples more vivid and spectacular than those in the aforementioned exchange on foreign policy optics.

The "line" of asking for A) a specific rather than vague claim and B) asking for evidence for a claim. How silly of me to try to understand claims and check if they are true or not. I don't apologize for doing things that way. Meanwhile, I can point to specific examples of your dishonesty and have done so (to cite some examples, your asserting that my low opinion of you is related to a later discussion rather than the fact that you continually lie about my position in 2016, the outright denial that you were your previous account, and your misrepresentation of my position in 2016). Those are specific examples of you making false claims that you know to be false.

That you can seriously debase yourself to say that you were right really goes to show how remarkably dishonest and/or delusional you really are. There's a reason you dropped that matter: because you had been proven, beyond a doubt, to be horribly, horribly mistaken. And it showed that you got emotional and went directly to insults due to being faced with simple, unobjectionable reality.

Horribly, horribly mistaken that a dumb position that we both agree was false was "reasonable"? That's a pointless argument that neither of us cares about, and that I was right about. And more than that, you keep trying to pretend that that is the source of a falling out that occurred before that because you don't want to face the fact that you were caught lying about my 2016 position or that you are straight up lying when you deny that you used to post under the name that you used to post under.

You're certainly an incredible liar. I very civilly laid out uncontroversial post, to which you replied, "huh, sounds crazy" and then insulted me by saying I was detached from reality because a....short clip that you found on the internet didn't contain some debate moments that I was referencing.

What are you saying I'm lying about? That that exchange took place after I objected to your long history (spanning two accounts of yours) of misrepresenting my position on the 2016 primary? Because, you know, the posts are still available and the dates are available. I don't get what you're trying to accomplish with such an easily disproved lie.
 
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Idea: Conservatives need to raise some money and release some of their own Michael Bloomberg ads in these areas he is running his. They should highlight his daughter getting knocked up by a Latin gigolo while he was out trying to buy elections and politicians to push his agenda.

Narrator in the ad: "Michael Bloomberg couldn't even protect his own daughter, how can he protect your family?" Then show pictures of Georgina pregnant, pictures of the gigolo smiling and then soundbites of her talking about how she's a single mother. While the narrator warns that Bloomberg was too busy campaigning against your Constitutional rights to stop it from happening.

It would be HILARIOUS and utterly humiliate Bloomberg when he had to address it.
 


From a woman who has lied about pretty much every detail of her life.

This is the way many progressives think. Rules are for everyone else. Like degenerate royals and aristocrats in the past (and present in some cultures) legislating morality and the sanctity of marriage while keeping mistresses and concubines and so on.



You hate liars so much you voted for trump. A man who lies about lies.

Please you’re an embarrassment as a human being.
 
Idea: Conservatives need to raise some money and release some of their own Michael Bloomberg ads in these areas he is running his. They should highlight his daughter getting knocked up by a Latin gigolo while he was out trying to buy elections and politicians to push his agenda.

Narrator in the ad: "Michael Bloomberg couldn't even protect his own daughter, how can he protect your family?" Then show pictures of Georgina pregnant, pictures of the gigolo smiling and then soundbites of her talking about how she's a single mother. While the narrator warns that Bloomberg was too busy campaigning against your Constitutional rights to stop it from happening.

It would be HILARIOUS and utterly humiliate Bloomberg when he had to address it.

In two hours of network(nbc) tv watching, I saw probably 7 Steyer ads, 6 Bloomberg ads, and 4 bernie ads. 2 Biden and 2 yang. I saw zero mayor Pete ads. Zero warren ads


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