Elections 2020 Democratic Primary Thread: The Announcements

[Anung Un Rama]

Why? So we can guarantee a Trump victory so that you can feel warm and fuzzy about still having the ability to vote for Bernie? I'm more practical than that.

There you go, you're already in full shill mode. Not voting Democrat = crazy.

Let's assume I like Bernie a lot more than whatever candidate actually wins the D nomination. I think the most important thing is to get Trump out of office (do you agree with how bad Trump is?). I would also want someone who reflected 60% of my values and policy preferences than someone who reflects like 10%.

Then maybe you should change your rhetoric to "we gotta get Bernie elected" rather than saying people who support him and his platform are crazy and if he runs third party Trump would get elected. Seems like you have your priorities messed up.

BTW, Bernie understood this well and that's why he conceded and backed Hillary. And this is why I gladly voted for Hillary despite not liking her at all.

Bernie made a huge mistake not running third party.

It's not rhetoric, it's true. And it's true whether it bothers you or not.

Its not true, you don't know what will happen. We already know that 'the most qualified presidential candidate ever' couldn't beat Trump. That happened. Sanders has cross-over appeal and most Democratic Primaries don't allow for non-registered independents to vote, so the Democratic Primary is not the be all end all of the presidential race.

 

[Lead]

Well looks like the primary discussion for 2020 is going to be much more interesting that 2016. It really felt like almost an incumbent year by the lack of interest in that race compared to the GOP one.

 

[kpt018]

There you go, you're already in full shill mode. Not voting Democrat = crazy.

No, again your misreading is causing a lot of the disagreement. If you hold liberal values it would be crazy to vote for Trump over a competent Democrat. If you don't, well, of course it's not crazy.

Then maybe you should change your rhetoric to "we gotta get Bernie elected" rather than saying people who support him and his platform are crazy and if he runs third party Trump would get elected. Seems like you have your priorities messed up.

I didn't say his people are crazy, wtf? I said there are some that are batshit. Why are you ignoring my post where I said there are plenty of smart good faith supporters? I can't tell if your reading comprehension is shit or you just want to pick a fight because I'm closer to the center than you.

Bernie made a huge mistake not running third party.

Did he say that? I know it's your opinion.

Its not true, you don't know what will happen. We already know that 'the most qualified presidential candidate ever' couldn't beat Trump.

Now that's rhetoric.

That happened. Sanders has cross-over appeal and most Democratic Primaries don't allow for non-registered independents to vote, so the Democratic Primary is not the be all end all of the presidential race.

Do you really think the furthest left mainstream candidate is grabbing folks on the right? No way, not even close enough to win. And he would grab many more left leaning candidates in the process.

I just don't think you understand this stuff well enough.

 

[Trotsky]

Ya, wtf

I'm on #TeamZuckerberg

 

[BassAckwards]

Bernie made a huge mistake not running third party.

it will never work. if he does, he's just going to pull a ross perot and split the democrat popular votes and still have zero electoral votes.

in 92 presidential election, bill clinton won the popular vote with 43% / bush 37.4% / perot 18.9%

 

[Anung Un Rama]

No, again your misreading is causing a lot of the disagreement. If you hold liberal values it would be crazy to vote for Trump over a competent Democrat. If you don't, well, of course it's not crazy.

Nobody said anything about voting Trump. You're equating a vote for a non-Democrat nominee to a vote for Trump, not me.

I didn't say his people are crazy, wtf? I said there are some that are batshit. Why are you ignoring my post where I said there are plenty of smart good faith supporters? I can't tell if your reading comprehension is shit or you just want to pick a fight because I'm closer to the center than you.

Righ, "batshit", that makes all the difference. You're ignoring the fact that you won't make this claim about any other left leaning candidate's support. Not a one.

Did he say that? I know it's your opinion.

I have not heard him say it. I read it on his face, though. And if not running third party was a decision to ensure Trump didn't get elected, and Trump got elected.... And if not running third party would have saved him from being blamed for Trump winning and he was still blamed for Trump winning....

Now that's rhetoric.

I agree, but its not my rhetoric

Do you really think the furthest left mainstream candidate is grabbing folks on the right? No way, not even close enough to win. And he would grab many more left leaning candidates in the process.

I just don't think you understand this stuff well enough.

I don't think you realize how we got here if you're going to ignore Sanders appeal to the right, particularly Trump supporters.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

it will never work. if he does, he's just going to pull a ross perot and split the democrat popular votes and still have zero electoral votes.

in 92 presidential election, bill clinton won the popular vote with 43% / bush 37.4% / perot 18.9%

So the Democrat was still able to win?
And Perot may have even won if not for some odd behavior down the stretch -- people tend to forget about that.
Of course the GOP and DNC, with the help of the MSM, have made that kind of run much more difficult these days.

 

[kpt018]

Nobody said anything about voting Trump. You're equating a vote for a non-Democrat nominee to a vote for Trump, not me.

That is how elections work, though. I know in your conscious you've voted for the best guy but that's because my point is not resonating with you.

Righ, "batshit", that makes all the difference. You're ignoring the fact that you won't make this claim about any other left leaning candidate's support. Not a one.

False. There are reasons why there is more of that behavior going on with Bernie (popularity, messaging, enthusiasm, etc.) but there are crazies backing every candidate. I think Trump actually has the most, by far.

Next time just ask me my views instead of assuming you know them (and get it wrong).

I have not heard him say it. I read it on his face, though. And if not running third party was a decision to ensure Trump didn't get elected, and Trump got elected.... And if not running third party would have saved him from being blamed for Trump winning and he was still blamed for Trump winning....

Well, that's not convincing.

I agree, but its not my rhetoric

He is campaigning for her, that's politics. And that's not relevant to our conversation. I didn't say that, right?

I don't think you realize how we got here if you're going to ignore Sanders appeal to the right, particularly Trump supporters.

You're simply not grasping my point. Bernie would steal votes for Trump but he would steal MANY more from the D candidate in a hypothetical third party run.

If we're going to continue can you please address stuff I've actually said? For example, why do you think Bernie steals more Trump supporters than Democratic ones?

 

[BassAckwards]

So the Democrat was still able to win?
And Perot may have even won if not for some odd behavior down the stretch -- people tend to forget about that.
Of course the GOP and DNC, with the help of the MSM, have made that kind of run much more difficult these days.

my point is like perot, bernie wont have a chance. the dems were already against him in their primaries and will stick to their party in electoral votes
liberal MSM will pull for the dems (they have more money) and rip bernie apart

 

[nostradumbass]

I'm still with her, dammit.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

That is how elections work, though. I know in your conscious you've voted for the best guy but that's because my point is not resonating with you.



False. There are reasons why there is more of that behavior going on with Bernie (popularity, messaging, enthusiasm, etc.) but there are crazies backing every candidate. I think Trump actually has the most, by far.

Next time just ask me my views instead of assuming you know them (and get it wrong).

you're pretty transparent, so there is no need. You're Team Establishment Democrat.

He is campaigning for her, that's politics. And that's not relevant to our conversation. I didn't say that, right?

Its context. If the best candidate ever couldn't beat Trump without a strong third party challenge then why would a lesser candidate fare any better? I never claimed that you said it.

You're simply not grasping my point. Bernie would steal votes for Trump but he would steal MANY more from the D candidate in a hypothetical third party run.

No, you're not grasping my point. You're entire angle for the 2020 election, in 2018, which is no different that it was in 2015-2016, is that Bernie is a threat to the Democratic Party, his supporters are crazy, and everybody needs to support the Democrat or you hate the world. You're argument in defense of that angle is that if Bernie does anything different than what he did in 2016, (ie run third party) the results will be the same, the Democrats lose. Essentially, your position is to marginalize Sanders early and often, just like 2016. If your goal was to see Trump ousted to save the world, and you were afraid Sanders could be a spoiler by running third party if he didn't get the nom, and you also claim to be left leaning who likes Sanders, then your posting would more resemble "we gotta get behind Bernie".

 

[kpt018]

you're pretty transparent, so there is no need. You're Team Establishment Democrat.



Its context. If the best candidate ever couldn't beat Trump without a strong third party challenge then why would a lesser candidate fare any better? I never claimed that you said it.



No, you're not grasping my point. You're entire angle for the 2020 election, in 2018, which is no different that it was in 2015-2016, is that Bernie is a threat to the Democratic Party, his supporters are crazy, and everybody needs to support the Democrat or you hate the world. You're argument in defense of that angle is that if Bernie does anything different than what he did in 2016, (ie run third party) the results will be the same, the Democrats lose. Essentially, your position is to marginalize Sanders early and often, just like 2016. If your goal was to see Trump ousted to save the world, and you were afraid Sanders could be a spoiler by running third party if he didn't get the nom, and you also claim to be left leaning who likes Sanders, then your posting would more resemble "we gotta get behind Bernie".

That posted weird but you're wrong about every conclusion there about my views. And since we're going in circles I guess I'll leave it there.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

His first wife & daughter back?

Nope. Please stop trying to humanize that creep.

 

[xcvbn]

Um, yeah no shit. My point isn't that Trump could only win if a good left wing ran third party, my point is if Bernie runs as a third party candidate in 2020 it would guarantee a Trump win instead of a roughly 50/50 chance (or whatever the odds will be at the time).

Then you better get on board with Big Dick Bern

 

[xcvbn]

my point is like perot, bernie wont have a chance. the dems were already against him in their primaries and will stick to their party in electoral votes
liberal MSM will pull for the dems (they have more money) and rip bernie apart

Then it's mutiny and the Democrat establishment can lick my fucking taint. They brought us Trump even if not one Dem nuthugger will admit it

 

[kpt018]

Then you better get on board with Big Dick Bern

Lol!

Honestly if he wins the nomination I'll vote Bernie with zero hesitation.

 

[Shoemaker]

Nope. Please stop trying to humanize that creep.

Says the guy actively de-humanizing him. You really don't think he'd like to have his wife and daughter back?

 

[Trotsky]

you're pretty transparent, so there is no need. You're Team Establishment Democrat.

He's not, though. What he has said is completely reasonable.

I'm as pro-Sanders and anti-Clintonite as they get, but with the state of the court system, it absolutely isn't worth it voting third party for the foreseeable future unless the Democrats go much, much further to the right.

Trump winning in 2016 (which was not due at all to third parties) and Bush winning in 2000 (which was due to a third party) has incalculably hurt the country and world for the next several decades purely because of court appointments. Even setting aside the (really important) considerations of economy and resource distribution, if Gore had won in 2000, it's nearly impossible to say just how much better off the country would be in additional areas like First Amendment rights, unionizing rights, employee protections, and campaign finance.

 

[Diamond Jim]

But you're probably plenty ok with the MSM marginalizing Sanders

Poor Bernie.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Agreed, but I think Biden probably has it locked down. At that point, I don't know what's worse between him and Trump. I think Biden can be a competent president for four years, but he'll just keep up with the same neoliberal fuckery we're used to and then get knocked off by Trump 2.0 in 2024.

There's no escape from this utter hellscape I'm afraid.

Can one be a competent president while pushing neo liberal fuckery?