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Elections 2016 Presidential Election General Discussion

What percentage of the vote will third party candidates receive in total?


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    84
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Important to keep in mind here what the original claim was.





I don't know whether it really needs to be more or less visible. I do know that such a factor hasn't shown a correlation with election results which we don't even have yet. The bumper stickers comment makes even less sense because I don't see how it determines a rigged system. Do you posts already assume Hillary will be elected so you're trying to show things that makes this seem less possible and thus, a rigged system? If so, bumper stickers isn't going to get anyone from that point A to B.


Okay. This is a party/primary issue however. The primary system is run by the each party and they establish the rules for how they decide a nominee. Though it's clear there was favoritism to Clinton during the primary, Clinton won both the popular vote (by a large margin) and the major of ELECTED delegates as well as super delegates.


Yes, we saw that the system we have in place had a nominee win without the popular vote four times in history and once in the past 100 years. Even if it were to me more frequent, this doesn't help your claim the election process is rigged because that would just be the system we have in place which everyone knows about beforehand. I just decided to go a step further and show that the difference in our system and a straight popular vote has varied in the result hardly ever.


I would mean there is division within the party still, yes. It doesn't mean anything is rigged however. You can win 90% of the popular vote and have very adamant supports of the other 10% disrupt a convention. In this years case, it was 55% for Hillary and some of Bernie's 43% disrupting.


A two party favored system isn't rigged though. It's just a type of system. Some countries have ones that allow for easier entrance of multiple parties and others have ones similar to ours. There are pros and cons to both but neither is inherently rigged.

None of these points really defend your claim.
I'm not suggesting the bumper stickers are hard evidence, I just think its really weird that a Democratic nominee's support base is essentially invisible in a liberal hub in the twin cities. In previous election cycles both party's candidate's stickers were EVERYWHERE. Now I only see Trump and Bernie stickers everywhere. The white noise machines drowning out the Bernie delegates and supporters further adds to the creep factor.

It could be said that Hillary won the popular vote thanks to implications from the Wasserman-Schultz scandal as well as favorable coverage from her employer George Soros's company Media Matters. Also the fact that many Bernie supporters were not allowed to vote in the primaries because they were not registered democrats in some states. The stack was always against Bernie and for Hillary. That's rigging a nomination at the very least. Sabotaging the integrity of a primary or a general election should be considered fraud IMO.

We have 3rd party candidates that should be talked about more in the media, but we're all programmed to think they're wacko's, radicals and a wasted vote. We are stuck in two party thinking, because we allow ourselves to be.

If Gary Johnson and Jill Stein aren't allowed in the debates, it will strengthen my claim. There is no reason to not allow them on stage other than to focus the population's attention on "Paper" or "Plastic".
 
I'm not suggesting the bumper stickers are hard evidence, I just think its really weird that a Democratic nominee's support base is essentially invisible in a liberal hub in the twin cities. In previous election cycles both party's candidate's stickers were EVERYWHERE. Now I only see Trump and Bernie stickers everywhere. The white noise machines drowning out the Bernie delegates and supporters further adds to the creep factor.

Okay. I think we can agree to put those two things aside then since they really are about things being creepy rather than rigged.

It could be said that Hillary won the popular vote thanks to implications from the Wasserman-Schultz scandal as well as favorable coverage from her employer George Soros's company Media Matters.
Favorable coverage doesn't mean rigged however. Voters still decided the race. No one ever claimed elections don't have money and interests trying to sway voters one direction or another. That's almost inherent to what an election is. The decision still is with each individual to place the vote. Favored coverage doesn't equal rigged.

Also the fact that many Bernie supporters were not allowed to vote in the primaries because they were not registered democrats in some states.
Yes, some states decide to have open, mixed or closed primaries and other rules regarding how their state party primary/caucus will be conducted. This isn't a new thing this election and doesn't indicate something being rigged. It's just rules were in place that helped one nominee over another. The end result was a candidate that had more support from democrats had an advantage in a democrat party primary. Again, this is just rules and systems for party nominations. Nothing about rigging here, especially when the rules were in place in prior elections. It wasn't some type of blindside in 2016.

The stack was always against Bernie and for Hillary. That's rigging a nomination at the very least. Sabotaging the integrity of a primary or a general election should be considered fraud IMO.

Define "the stack" for me. Is it the comment above this one about primary rules in closed states? If so, it makes little sense those rules were put in place long ago all because one day they would help Clinton beat Bernie. You're blending cause and effect together. What the rules are doesn't prove why the rules are.


We have 3rd party candidates that should be talked about more in the media, but we're all programmed to think they're wacko's, radicals and a wasted vote. We are stuck in two party thinking, because we allow ourselves to be.
Again, this is just a preference thing with a two party over multiparty system. Has nothing to do with election being rigged or not.

If Gary Johnson and Jill Stein aren't allowed in the debates, it will strengthen my claim. There is no reason to not allow them on stage other than to focus the population's attention on "Paper" or "Plastic".
It doesn't strengthen your claim because rigging an election means fraud. Points about advertising or slandering/ignoring a candidate in media doesn't defend a claim. The individual still places their vote under their own free will. They just usually decide on one of the two parties because of the system we have in place out of rationality.

So to be clear here, I think we need to understand:
1. There are different systems for elections and just because you have a preference for one or another, that doesn't make one inherently rigged. Especially the common two or multiparty systems we see in most developed countries.
2. Media supporting/criticizing candidates is not rigging an election.
Not understanding this is going to continue discussion of points that can't defend your claim
 
What do you guys think: If Trump hadn't said "they're rapists, they're murderers" about illegals when he announced his Presidency, would he be dominating the polls right now? Everything else the same--the wall, the bullying personality, the non-PC stuff--just without the "racist" comment. I feel like he must be kicking himself over that; it's pretty much the only thing the Democrats can use to smear him as a racist, which is the biggest hurdle he has to overcome if he wants to attract Bernie Bros.
No, speaking the truth is what has gotten him this far.
 
Okay. I think we can agree to put those two things aside then since they really are about things being creepy rather than rigged.


Favorable coverage doesn't mean rigged however. Voters still decided the race. No one ever claimed elections don't have money and interests trying to sway voters one direction or another. That's almost inherent to what an election is. The decision still is with each individual to place the vote. Favored coverage doesn't equal rigged.


Yes, some states decide to have open, mixed or closed primaries and other rules regarding how their state party primary/caucus will be conducted. This isn't a new thing this election and doesn't indicate something being rigged. It's just rules were in place that helped one nominee over another. The end result was a candidate that had more support from democrats had an advantage in a democrat party primary. Again, this is just rules and systems for party nominations. Nothing about rigging here, especially when the rules were in place in prior elections. It wasn't some type of blindside in 2016.



Define "the stack" for me. Is it the comment above this one about primary rules in closed states? If so, it makes little sense those rules were put in place long ago all because one day they would help Clinton beat Bernie. You're blending cause and effect together. What the rules are doesn't prove why the rules are.



Again, this is just a preference thing with a two party over multiparty system. Has nothing to do with election being rigged or not.


It doesn't strengthen your claim because rigging an election means fraud. Points about advertising or slandering/ignoring a candidate in media doesn't defend a claim. The individual still places their vote under their own free will. They just usually decide on one of the two parties because of the system we have in place out of rationality.

So to be clear here, I think we need to understand:
1. There are different systems for elections and just because you have a preference for one or another, that doesn't make one inherently rigged. Especially the common two or multiparty systems we see in most developed countries.
2. Media supporting/criticizing candidates is not rigging an election.
Not understanding this is going to continue discussion of points that can't defend your claim
Its not even a matter of favorable coverage or criticism heavy coverage, its a matter of third party candidates being black balled altogether. Its the media who chooses not to talk about these third party candidates, not the people. The "Who to vote for decision" is made my MSM outlets and unfortunately a large amount of the population listens to whatever they say and accepts it.

In my mind, MSM is one of the three heads of "The Stack". All MSM outlets are owned by 6 huge corporations. These corporations have a lot to gain and a lot to lose depending on how the elections turn out. I can't believe that these 6 wouldn't do everything in their power to "Minimalize" the risk on losing a lot on an election. So they help rig the nominations and the election for their own benefit. Between MSM, Big Banks and the DNC they make up the 3 heads of "The Stack".

Hillary has 6 of the 10 biggest banks as campaign donors. These banks help her fund her massive campaign. (Neither Bernie, Johnson, Stein or Trump have accepted money from the big banks in this election as far as I've seen/read.)

MSM has given Hillary more coverage positive and negative than any other candidate. Again, i'm not arguing about favorable coverage, i'm arguing that Hillary has purchased herself more coverage by quantity than any other candidate in the election. Candidates like Jill Stein and Gary Johnson have received an extremely minimal amount of any kind of coverage, largely due to them not having anywhere near the same campaign funds as the other two. Is this a Cashocracy or a Democracy? Seems like the money piece plays a role in rigging the elections, in that sense. People don't choose the candidates, money thrusts them into our vision and most never try to squint and peer around to see the other candidates with much less exposure.

What is stopping MSM from thrusting third party candidates onto the main stage from the beginning other than cash?

The DNC sabotaging Bernie's chances is the final nail in the coffin. Less coverage, less votes. Less money, less votes. No inner-party support, less votes...Bernie was never a real candidate, Hillary had the nomination locked up before it even started. Now she has an easy road to the white house running against Trump as long as she doesn't go to jail, which of course she won't.


-My definition-
Rigged: Purposeful and decieptful directing towards a specified outcome with no regard for the integrity or objectivity of the process. Sounds quite a bit like fraud to me.

Also doesn't help that only like 1/3 Americans will vote come election day.
 
... everyday at work she will have to sit in the same chair that her husband was sitting in when he got a bj and fingered another woman with a cigar. Surely that's gotta be irritating for her.
 
tumblr_ob350trIdP1udh5n8o1_400.gif
 
Payback time! She gonna have a young explosive intern stud put it down every time Bill is away.
 
Then a minor demon would be in the office rather than the full on devil
 
Yeah, that must have been a real strain on their relationship. But they're still so in love that they were able to work through that.
 
Its not even a matter of favorable coverage or criticism heavy coverage, its a matter of third party candidates being black balled altogether. Its the media who chooses not to talk about these third party candidates, not the people. The "Who to vote for decision" is made my MSM outlets and unfortunately a large amount of the population listens to whatever they say and accepts it.

In my mind, MSM is one of the three heads of "The Stack". All MSM outlets are owned by 6 huge corporations. These corporations have a lot to gain and a lot to lose depending on how the elections turn out. I can't believe that these 6 wouldn't do everything in their power to "Minimalize" the risk on losing a lot on an election. So they help rig the nominations and the election for their own benefit. Between MSM, Big Banks and the DNC they make up the 3 heads of "The Stack".

Hillary has 6 of the 10 biggest banks as campaign donors. These banks help her fund her massive campaign. (Neither Bernie, Johnson, Stein or Trump have accepted money from the big banks in this election as far as I've seen/read.)

MSM has given Hillary more coverage positive and negative than any other candidate. Again, i'm not arguing about favorable coverage, i'm arguing that Hillary has purchased herself more coverage by quantity than any other candidate in the election. Candidates like Jill Stein and Gary Johnson have received an extremely minimal amount of any kind of coverage, largely due to them not having anywhere near the same campaign funds as the other two. Is this a Cashocracy or a Democracy? Seems like the money piece plays a role in rigging the elections, in that sense. People don't choose the candidates, money thrusts them into our vision and most never try to squint and peer around to see the other candidates with much less exposure.

What is stopping MSM from thrusting third party candidates onto the main stage from the beginning other than cash?

The DNC sabotaging Bernie's chances is the final nail in the coffin. Less coverage, less votes. Less money, less votes. No inner-party support, less votes...Bernie was never a real candidate, Hillary had the nomination locked up before it even started. Now she has an easy road to the white house running against Trump as long as she doesn't go to jail, which of course she won't.


-My definition-
Rigged: Purposeful and decieptful directing towards a specified outcome with no regard for the integrity or objectivity of the process. Sounds quite a bit like fraud to me.

Also doesn't help that only like 1/3 Americans will vote come election day.

Yea, this isn't going to work if you think news coverage means fraud. You don't need to really educate me on media backing one candidate or another. That happens every race. Same with the donations. If you see that as "rigged", then the solution would be people ignore candidates with favorable coverage and campaign donations, WHICH they are free to do so. That's the problem I'm seeing with your claim. Rigged implies the result cannot be turned over through a fair means within the system when we know it clearly can in this case. If people truly didn't want to vote for Hillary, Trump, etc, they could vote for a different candidate or not vote at all. The voting process isn't rigged and that's what determines the election. We can spin in circles all day about the media and donors but neither of them decides the election directly and you see examples in elections where one candidate has more fundraising/coverage and bombs at the polls.

Your definition doesn't work because it isn't changing the outcome directly. If you went on this forum and convinced a ton of posters to vote for Bernie during the primary to posters and that's the only news they really heard about the primary, that isn't rigging things. It's just trying to convince a population what to do with their vote. The vote itself still have the integrity/objectivity you're claiming is now gone.
 
Yea, this isn't going to work if you think news coverage means fraud. You don't need to really educate me on media backing one candidate or another. That happens every race. Same with the donations. If you see that as "rigged", then the solution would be people ignore candidates with favorable coverage and campaign donations, WHICH they are free to do so. That's the problem I'm seeing with your claim. Rigged implies the result cannot be turned over through a fair means within the system when we know it clearly can in this case. If people truly didn't want to vote for Hillary, Trump, etc, they could vote for a different candidate or not vote at all. The voting process isn't rigged and that's what determines the election. We can spin in circles all day about the media and donors but neither of them decides the election directly and you see examples in elections where one candidate has more fundraising/coverage and bombs at the polls.

Your definition doesn't work because it isn't changing the outcome directly. If you went on this forum and convinced a ton of posters to vote for Bernie during the primary to posters and that's the only news they really heard about the primary, that isn't rigging things. It's just trying to convince a population what to do with their vote. The vote itself still have the integrity/objectivity you're claiming is now gone.
Except in 2000 where it didn't.

I think our definitions of rigged are different.
 
no wonder newt likes trump so much
 
Except in 2000 where it didn't.

I think our definitions of rigged are different.

...Again, we talked about that. Electoral college vs. Popular vote doesn't mean rigged. The voter still had the integrity/objectivity of their vote upheld to decide where their state awarded their delegates too. Its just a different system, not a rigged system. It was a system in place for 200 years now and it wasn't set up to allow Bush beat Gore in 2000
 
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