1967 Muhammad Ali against Prime Lennox Lewis

Area809 said:
How does Ali’s with his style get inside Lewis? Lewis poses a problem that no one did in the 60’s or 70’s. A huge man with a very good jab, patience and high boxing IQ(unlike Foreman in those days). It’s hard for me to see it happening. But let me know how you see it.
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I mean I see it the way you do but Ali had the speed and movement that if he could avoid Lewis' jab enough he could win a decision. Even though I think he'd be completely spent by the effort. Who knows in a 15 round fight if Lewis would tire enough down the stretch for Ali to sweep the rounds.
 
Area809 said:
How does Ali’s with his style get inside Lewis? Lewis poses a problem that no one did in the 60’s or 70’s. A huge man with a very good jab, patience and high boxing IQ(unlike Foreman in those days). It’s hard for me to see it happening. But let me know how you see it.
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Speed. Prime Lewis was 245lbs and quite sluggish, Ali would have a significant speed advantage and cardio.
 
Roids said:
Speed. Prime Lewis was 245lbs and quite sluggish, Ali would have a significant speed advantage and cardio.
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Gets inside with speed? How? That’s a very broad statement and not specific enough. Ali used his speed from the outside, usually fighting as the taller man. He wasn’t one to box his way inside either. What’s he doing to do against the bigger man? Rope-a-dope? Lewis is smarter than Foreman to fall into that trap. Ali never faced a 6’5 man with boxing skills like Lewis. I get that we are talking about a fantasy matchup, but we’d be asking Ali to do something he’s never done before.
 
Area809 said:
Gets inside with speed? How? That’s a very broad statement and not specific enough. Ali used his speed from the outside, usually fighting as the taller man. He wasn’t one to box his way inside either. What’s he doing to do against the bigger man? Rope-a-dope? Lewis is smarter than Foreman to fall into that trap. Ali never faced a 6’5 man with boxing skills like Lewis. I get that we are talking about a fantasy matchup, but we’d be asking Ali to do something he’s never done before.
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He could still outbox the bigger man from the outside with superior speed and movement, especially in later rounds. Lewis looked good out jabbing sluggish flat footed opponents but I don't recall him up against an Ali style fighter. Marvovic gave him a tricky fight and he was a more fast and mobile HW. Even his prime Lewis was quite flatted so Its not hard for me to imagine him getting out worked and out boxed Ali.
 
Roids said:
He could still outbox the bigger man from the outside with superior speed and movement, especially in later rounds. Lewis looked good out jabbing sluggish flat footed opponents but I don't recall him up against an Ali style fighter. Marvovic gave him a tricky fight and he was a more fast and mobile HW. Even his prime Lewis was quite flatted so Its not hard for me to imagine him getting out worked and out boxed Ali.
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Lewis’s style is to keep you at the end of his jab. He’s not going to chase Ali around a ring. He can paw with the jab to keep you at distance or throw it stiff. His jab hand is usually extended, covering your vision. He’s then able to time the straight right, which is deceptively quick. Just because he didn’t have fancy footwork it doesn’t mean he was slow or sluggish. No one has ever used their physical advantages in the heavyweight division like Lewis. 6’5, ‘84, with the IQ and skills to take full advantage of it. I get people love to romanize Ali but it’s two different eras of boxing.
 
Area809 said:
Lewis’s style is to keep you at the end of his jab. He’s not going to chase Ali around a ring. He can paw with the jab to keep you at distance or throw it stiff. His jab hand is usually extended, covering your vision. He’s then able to time the straight right, which is deceptively quick. Just because he didn’t have fancy footwork it doesn’t mean he was slow or sluggish. No one has ever used their physical advantages in the heavyweight division like Lewis. 6’5, ‘84, with the IQ and skills to take full advantage of it. I get people love to romanize Ali but it’s two different eras of boxing.
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You totally ignored my point, and just proceeded to detail the style of fighting Lewis deployed against slow, flat footed opponents, and how it would be much harder against someone as fast and mobile as Ali. He also was factually sluggish at 245lbs watch his fights again. Maravic put it on him a number of times on the ropes landing a lot of good combinations with his speed advantage. You seem to be the one romanticizing. You seem to think Ali would just stand there eating a pawing jab all night.
 
Roids said:
You totally ignored my point, and just proceeded to detail the style of fighting Lewis deployed against slow, flat footed opponents, and how it would be much harder against someone as fast and mobile as Ali. He also was factually sluggish at 245lbs watch his fights again. Maravic put it on him a number of times on the ropes landing a lot of good combinations with his speed advantage. You seem to be the one romanticizing. You seem to think Ali would just stand there eating a pawing jab all night.
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I say you’re romanticizing Ali because the whole premise of this discussion is ridiculous now. Ali gets to be 25 years old while you use an example from an awkward Lewis fight when he was 33 years old, which by the way, he won convincingly but people were annoyed he couldn’t KO the guy. Mavrovic literally went in there willing to take two to land one. That is not a good strategy and that wouldn’t be the strategy of a young Ali. I credit Mavrovic’s chin more than his “speed” for keeping him in that fight. Other than some moments, this fight wasn’t even close and the disparity between punches thrown and landed further illustrate how difficult it was to get around Lewis’s jab. But you still never explained how Ali would use his speed in technical terms. It sure as heck wouldn’t look anything like Mavrovic.
 
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Area809 said:
I say you’re romanticizing Ali because the whole premise of this discussion is ridiculous now. Ali gets to be 25 years old while you use an example from an awkward Lewis fight when he was 33 years old, which by the way, he won convincingly but people were annoyed he couldn’t KO the guy. Mavrovic literally went in there willing to take two to land one. That is not a good strategy and that wouldn’t be the strategy of a young Ali. I credit Mavrovic’s chin more than his “speed” for keeping him in that fight. Other than some moments, this fight wasn’t even close and the disparity between punches thrown and landed further illustrate how difficult it was to get around Lewis’s jab. But you still never explained how Ali would use his speed in technical terms. It sure as heck wouldn’t look anything like Mavrovic.
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It's really hard to have these conversations, especially about guys like Ali and Tyson that have turned into mythical like sacred holy cows owing to their canonization thru Hollywood and the media. Many look at him in a way that children look at their fathers - i.e. 'my dad could beat up anyone' - and simply can not approach these type of scenarios logically and realistically. It's always been this way too; I remember watching a fight panel from Ali's hay day when they were saying how Jack Dempsey and Marciano would school Ali, but to say that now people would scoff at you.
 
GeneTunney7 said:
It's really hard to have these conversations, especially about guys like Ali and Tyson that have turned into mythical like sacred holy cows owing to their canonization thru Hollywood and the media. Many look at him in a way that children look at their fathers - i.e. 'my dad could beat up anyone' - and simply can not approach these type of scenarios logically and realistically. It's always been this way too; I remember watching a fight panel from Ali's hay day when they were saying how Jack Dempsey and Marciano would school Ali, but to say that now people would scoff at you.
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Tell me about it, I couldn’t agree more. I’m old enough to have seen the narrative about Mike Tyson change from “never reached his potential/waste of talent” to “he beats any heavyweight from any era”. Fans lose objectivity when they get emotionally attached to these mythical characters. Ali was the best in his era, which was totally different from Lewis’s era.
 
LangfordBarrow said:
Styles make fights. Liston was a wrecking ball but I don't think he was the ring general Lewis was and it's debatable that he was still in his prime. Lewis fighting tall and behind a jab would be a much tougher fight for Ali I think.
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That analysis seems off, Ali struggled with quick guys who could muscle their way inside (Norton, Cooper, Fraizer). He never had any issues with guys trying to fight on the outside behind the jab (Spinks and Holmes don't count, Ali was already showing signs of parkinsons).
 
djacobox372 said:
That analysis seems off, Ali struggled with quick guys who could muscle their way inside (Norton, Cooper, Fraizer). He never had any issues with guys trying to fight on the outside behind the jab (Spinks and Holmes don't count, Ali was already showing signs of parkinsons).
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So what opponent with that style did he fight that you can compare to Lewis?
 
Area809 said:
I say you’re romanticizing Ali because the whole premise of this discussion is ridiculous now. Ali gets to be 25 years old while you use an example from an awkward Lewis fight when he was 33 years old, which by the way, he won convincingly but people were annoyed he couldn’t KO the guy. Mavrovic literally went in there willing to take two to land one. That is not a good strategy and that wouldn’t be the strategy of a young Ali. I credit Mavrovic’s chin more than his “speed” for keeping him in that fight. Other than some moments, this fight wasn’t even close and the disparity between punches thrown and landed further illustrate how difficult it was to get around Lewis’s jab. But you still never explained how Ali would use his speed in technical terms. It sure as heck wouldn’t look anything like Mavrovic.
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He would keep circling, and making Lewis miss alot with his great head movement, and countering him. Go watch Lewis in his prime from the mid rounds he was very flat footed and sluggish, so its obvious Ali would have a clear advantage in that area and very open to counters. How many opponents did Lewis fight that could counter and well as Ali , plus with his speed? He fought fighters that were easy targets. Totally different. Lewis hit his prime late in his early 30s, so the age is fine.
 
Roids said:
He would keep circling, and making Lewis miss alot with his great head movement, and countering him. Go watch Lewis in his prime from the mid rounds he was very flat footed and sluggish, so its obvious Ali would have a clear advantage in that area and very open to counters. How many opponents did Lewis fight that could counter and well as Ali , plus with his speed? He fought fighters that were easy targets. Totally different. Lewis hit his prime late in his early 30s, so the age is fine.
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So Lewis with a significant size advantage by reach and height combined would simply chase the smaller man around the ring….got it. Smh

And you’re also saying Lewis’s best prime years were when he was an old, slow and sluggish fighter….got it. Smh

Have a good one dude
 
Area809 said:
So Lewis with a significant size advantage by reach and height combined would simply chase the smaller man around the ring….got it. Smh
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Well considering the opponent loves to dance all around the ring, please detail the alternative? He just stands stationary and tries to jab Ali who just stands stationary in front of him?

Area809 said:
And you’re also saying Lewis’s best prime years were when he was an old, slow and sluggish fighter….got it. Smh
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Pretty sure the general consensus is that his prime was mid to late 90s? that's early 30s.
 
Roids said:
Well considering the opponent loves to dance all around the ring, please detail the alternative? He just stands stationary and tries to jab Ali who just stands stationary in front of him?



Pretty sure the general consensus is that his prime was mid to late 90s? that's early 30s.
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  • Not even going to dignify your first point with an answer lol
  • Pretty sure there is no consensus on Lewis’s prime, seen as he defeated every man he ever faced as a pro. Was no shit dominant from day one, with a handful of tough fights along the way like any other fighter.
 
Area809 said:
  • Not even going to dignify your first point with an answer lol
  • Pretty sure there is no consensus on Lewis’s prime, seen as he defeated every man he ever faced as a pro. Was no shit dominant from day one, with a handful of tough fights along the way like any other fighter.
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Ok so you cant respond cool. General consensus was when he hired Steward and become undisputed in 97. You seem to want to use the younger faster athletic version of lewis and combine him with the more educated and refined boxing version of later in his career. It does not work like that, casual.
 
Roids said:
Ok so you cant respond cool. General consensus was when he hired Steward and become undisputed in 97. You seem to want to use the younger faster athletic version of lewis and combine him with the more educated and refined boxing version of later in his career. It does not work like that, casual.
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Was wondering when the first “insult” would come when you can’t intelligently debate a subject lol.

I haven’t chosen a version of Lewis. I’m telling you pre/post Kronk Lewis beats any boxer in the 1960s, including Ali. That’s what I’ve been saying.
 
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