100 Orthodox rabbis condemn SPLC

[Anaconda99]

To be fair to @Social Distance Warrior I kinda came at him off the bat. I stand by my general point but I could've been more diplomatic I suppose.

After rereading it it seems to be more Social distance warrior who was getting emotional. I didnt mean you anyway the other fella he was writing but he didnt say much well he did insult him but then SDW went off the wall lol.

 

[Anaconda99]

I mustn't respect a man who can go back and admit to overreacting, but i shall.

 

[Islam Imamate]

After rereading it it seems to be more Social distance warrior who was getting emotional. I didnt mean you anyway the other fella he was writing but he didnt say much well he did insult him but then SDW went off the wall lol.

Oh yeah I get that is what you're saying, I'm just saying in his defense I kinda jabbed at him from the beginning which got him heated to start with. Like I said I stand by the point I was making but perhaps not how I made it.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The SPLC did great working undermining the Klan and going after their finances 40-50 years ago. They deserve a lot of credit for that imo.

It has since become an ugly partisan group with a workplace that oppresses black and women. According to employees, there is a pervasive racist culture in the SPLC workplace, and systematic racial and sexual discrimination in hiring. Add to that the obvious point that many groups on their "hate" list are relatively moderate groups with which they disagree.

They have become what they hate.

 

[Anaconda99]

Oh yeah I get that is what you're saying, I'm just saying in his defense I kinda jabbed at him from the beginning which got him heated to start with. Like I said I stand by the point I was making but perhaps not how I made it.

I can respect that even though i didnt think you came off harsh or aggresive.

 

[Ayin]

Well that’s his thing read turned into a flaming wreck quickly.

The *ews have the strongest race card. Once a *ew claims to be offended by something watch all the conservatives come running to defend them.

I would hope the political Right would Ben amongst the first to defend Jews, considering our most recent attempt to slaughter them at a mass scale was perpetrated by a Right government, and that the Right still contains openly genocidal sub groups against them (Neo Nazis and such).

One of the most interesting things about watching the Trump situation is seeing him be criticized as both too pro-Jewish interests (because
He’s on the Right) and also seeing him being accused of supporting the kinds of people and organizations who are the farthest thing from being in the Jewish interests (because he’s on the Right).

No, Ali said Islam as a whole and most Muslims are extremists and that they need to be defeated and crushed. She even thought Daniel Pipes, who is himself a hardline anti-Islam critic, wasn't critical enough when he said "Radical Islam is the problem but moderate Islam is the solution"

To be fair, as I said earlier, she has moderated her views over time and has now said she believes that Islam can be reformed, whatever that means, but the idea that she's anti-Muslim did not come out of nowhere.

That’s an easy definition to be true.

If you collected a set of “extremist” beliefs that would label one to that category and conducts polls in the Muslim world, you’d doubtless get at least a significant minority who ascribed to that interpretation or those beliefs, and often see a government that is committed to those beliefs regardless of the people (who would still largely align with most of those), as is the case in, say, Iran.

How that translates to any specific sub-population if Muslims in a Western country will doubtless differ greatly based on that populations specific background, but that statement itself is not one that only some kind of ideologue would utter.

From what I understand she is relatively conservative by European standards and is a moderate or center right by American standards

I suppose the mistake here was mine, in that I was speaking about it in a North American context.

 

[Denter]

No, Ali said Islam as a whole and most Muslims are extremists and that they need to be defeated and crushed. She even thought Daniel Pipes, who is himself a hardline anti-Islam critic, wasn't critical enough when he said "Radical Islam is the problem but moderate Islam is the solution"

To be fair, as I said earlier, she has moderated her views over time and has now said she believes that Islam can be reformed, whatever that means, but the idea that she's anti-Muslim did not come out of nowhere.

I love the word "reformed". It can mean almost anything. In contexts like this, I take it to mean "digested".

Whatever you want to call this multipolar thing that is our society, it is clear to me that there are only two things it cannot digest and turn into consumption fuel: extreme religious beliefs and far-far right politics. That itself is enough for me to keep an open mind towards those things.

 

[The ScorpioN]

She was elected as a member of a center right party, if that doesn't make someone right wing I don't know what does. That said, that doesn't make her an extremist or whatever the SPLC said she was. But the funny thing is both Maajid and Ali both accuse moderate Muslim groups of being extremist so they're only getting a taste of their own medicine.

Probably because those moderate muslim groups, like our very own resident moderate muslims, always carry water for shitty muslim behavior.
Case in point: you.

 

[Islam Imamate]

That’s an easy definition to be true.

If you collected a set of “extremist” beliefs that would label one to that category and conducts polls in the Muslim world, you’d doubtless get at least a significant minority who ascribed to that interpretation or those beliefs, and often see a government that is committed to those beliefs regardless of the people (who would still largely align with most of those), as is the case in, say, Iran.

How that translates to any specific sub-population if Muslims in a Western country will doubtless differ greatly based on that populations specific background, but that statement itself is not one that only some kind of ideologue would utter.

I'm not going to deny that there's a non-negligible instance of attitudes that can be considered problematic in the Muslim world, especially from the liberal perspective, but at the same time his is trivially easy to do with any population. Even as late as a few years ago almost half of Americans supported torture and the Iraq War, some people would consider those extreme positions. Republicans in particular have majority support for those things, are they extremists?

Ayan Hirsi Ali uses this logic to justify military action against the Muslim world. If you use opinion polls to justify militarism you're an ideologue in my book.

 

[Low Test With da Best]

The SPLC did great working undermining the Klan and going after their finances 40-50 years ago. They deserve a lot of credit for that imo.

It has since become an ugly partisan group with a workplace that oppresses black and women. According to employees, there is a pervasive racist culture in the SPLC workplace, and systematic racial and sexual discrimination in hiring. Add to that the obvious point that many groups on their "hate" list are relatively moderate groups with which they disagree.

They have become what they hate.

Why do you hate that they hate hate?

JK

But seriously:
Systematic
Pervasive
Loathesomeness
Center

 

[Fox by the Sea]

read Rabbits and was much cooler like that

 

[James Bomb]

This thread is a total dumpster fire.

Some people need to get back on their meds.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I love the word "reformed". It can mean almost anything. In contexts like this, I take it to mean "digested".

Whatever you want to call this multipolar thing that is our society, it is clear to me that there are only two things it cannot digest and turn into consumption fuel: extreme religious beliefs and far-far right politics. That itself is enough for me to keep an open mind towards those things.

That's a good way to put really. That's why these tepid liberal reform efforts don't go anywhere, because actual Muslims don't want their religion "digested" so they only gain traction among secular Muslims who are already "reformed" anyway.

This is why I have become a bit disillusioned with progressives. Some of my so called anti-capitalist, progressive friends seem to be the most thoroughly digested by capitalist modernity and its devout people with sincere faith that seem most resistant to its ills. I still consider myself a leftist because when it comes to governance and policy if I have to choose between a left-liberal or a right-liberal I'm going to choose the left-liberal 9/10. But on an individual level and as a basis for community I think socially conservative values are superior to progressive values.

In other words in a "nation-state" context I want the state to be secular and left leaning in its policies and the nation to be religiously conservative in its values and attitudes. Perhaps that's trying to have the cake and eat too though, that its an impossible state of affairs to maintain as either the secular liberal state will influence the nation to abandon its conservative values or the conservative nation will inevitably capture and reshape the state in its image.

 

[Denter]

That's a good way to put really. That's why these tepid liberal reform efforts don't go anywhere, because actual Muslims don't want their religion "digested" so they only gain traction among secular Muslims who are already "reformed" anyway.

This is why I have become a bit disillusioned with progressives. Some of my so called anti-capitalist, progressive friends seem to be the most thoroughly digested by capitalist modernity and its devout people with sincere faith that seem most resistant to its ills. I still consider myself a leftist because when it comes to governance and policy if I have to choose between a left-liberal or a right-liberal I'm going to choose the left-liberal 9/10. But on an individual level and as a basis for community I think socially conservative values are superior to progressive values.

In other words in a "nation-state" context I want the state to be secular and left leaning in its policies and the nation to be religiously conservative in its values and attitudes. Perhaps that's trying to have the cake and eat too though, that its an impossible state of affairs to maintain as either the secular liberal state will influence the nation to abandon its conservative values or the conservative nation will inevitably capture and reshape the state in its image.

I agree. You see this with Christian churches as well- the more concessions they make to the rolling cultural revolution, the more the pews empty. The secular system held for awhile; too bad all it took was a religion that didn't use the word God to bypass its defenses. Unfortunately for secular liberals, a religion can't be turned into a process; it must have dogmas, it must have prescriptions. This is why liberalism can never win, it can only be a temporary peace treaty.

As far as the shape of the state, there are many that agree with a fiscally liberal state that takes care of it's people, but that is also socially conservative. The road back to that is harder than people imagine though, because the causes of the erosion of traditional culture run very deep. Is there a force in the world more destructive to traditional norms than modern capitalism? If so, I haven't seen it.