International ‘Founding principles HAVE BEEN LOST’: Macron blasts US media for legitimizing Islamist violence

[OrwellianNightmare]

The issue with Islam in Western countries is that its a religion that revolves around a warlord as the ideal figure, and that it explicitly forbids the separation of Church and State. This makes the religion incompatible with democratic societies. No majority Muslim country has ever managed to separate Church and State successfully. This doesn't mean Muslims can't integrate successfully into free societies, but it has to be always kept in mind and integration after vetting is necessary. The mass immigration of Muslims into Europe without vetting was a huge mistake. Expect massive increase in violence in Europe. Governments are going to have to run a dystopian style monitoring system that's more invasive than ever before to keep the violence down. This is bad for everyone.

 

[Halifax]

There has to be a multi-pronged government focus on lifting up the wayward youth that are easy picking for radicals. As a first step, the insistence to never take religious/racial census is counter productive. You can't improve what you can't measure, and there is rampant discrimination and under performance with this segment of society. Much of the allure of radicals is that they give disaffected youths a sense of belonging in a society that mostly shuns them. Right now there is no genuine appetite on the part of the French to help the disaffected youth and get creative solutions to problems, and that's largely driven by an obstinate view of what secularism means and how healthy their society is. The french are just so god damn self righteous and stubborn.

Job discrimation is much much worse in Europe than it is in the US.
https://psmag.com/news/hiring-discrimination-is-greater-in-france-and-sweden-than-in-the-u-s



They definitely weren't FULLY the product of Islamic religious directives. Nothing is ever fully one thing or another. For starters the killing of civilians is against Islam by every major ruling and religious tradition, so the terrorist acts can't be "Islamic" directives in the literal sense. They are political acts that are justified through self serving interpretations of Islam that are in the extreme minority. This is the nuance I'm talking about.

Uh, The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

The Quran is actually further right leaning on spectrum than the Bible lol. I always find it perplexing to see the resident leftists defending islam

 

[Halifax]

It’s almost like western civilization and Islam are incompatible.

Pretty much. Especially with the left despite the fact that the left defend them the most<45>

 

[Bald1]

Well, he's right. The 'he shouldn't have beheaded the teacher, but we shouldn't offend Islam' approach has no place in a society where no other ideology has such protection.

 

[Headkicktoleg]

As former young kickboxer from shitty neighboorhood myself, imagine the mindset you need to offer scummy youth a fucking kickboxing class hoping this will calm shit down LOL

Of course there's the good "teh gym keept me out of teh streets", yet for each of that (assuming he truly stopped being scum) you get 2-3 that keep do same shit as before, but better trained lol

I love fight sports and they can develop good values too, but the whole fable that the ring somehow turn street kids into respectful mcdojo monks never fail to crack me up

Case in Point-Boston Marathon Bomber

 

[moosaev]

You've outed yourself here. This clearly isn't about having a good faith dialogue but about you playing apologist for your religion. No thanks to further enabling that.

I’ve outed myself? You haven’t cited a single piece of evidence for any of your claims. Talk about arguing in bad faith! I simply asked you to cite examples of your claims regarding whether Islam doctrinally justifies killing civilians. You couldn’t. Then you claim all these “debates” within Islam about whether killing civilians is justified that are supposedly common knowledge without citing a single one. Finally, you’re resorting to ad hominems about what my motivations are. You're just dug in on your dislike of Islam and you’re impervious to arguments that undermine your assumptions, so don’t pretend like you’re having a good faith argument, it’s very dishonest.

 

[moosaev]

It’s almost like western civilization and Islam are incompatible.

This claim is easily falsifiable. There are plenty of Muslims that are thriving in the west, most notably American Muslims.

 

[moosaev]

Uh, The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

The Quran is actually further right leaning on spectrum than the Bible lol. I always find it perplexing to see the resident leftists defending islam

Actually the Quran is not nearly as aggressive as the Old Testament, like it’s not even close. That said, the verses on violence in the Quran are understood in a specific context. Nobody who is serious would claim that the Quran mandates that Muslims go around chopping the heads of disbelievers, that’s simply not true.

 

[Legicato]

I’ve outed myself? You haven’t cited a single piece of evidence for any of your claims. Talk about arguing in bad faith! I simply asked you to cite examples of your claims regarding whether Islam doctrinally justifies killing civilians. You couldn’t. Then you claim all these “debates” within Islam about whether killing civilians is justified that are supposedly common knowledge without citing a single one. Finally, you’re resorting to ad hominems about what my motivations are. You're just dug in on your dislike of Islam and you’re impervious to arguments that undermine your assumptions, so don’t pretend like you’re having a good faith argument, it’s very dishonest.

Its funny how apologists always want others to become experts in your disgusting ideology as if actions world wide don't speak volumes enough.

How this for a fine example of your religion. https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...ed-for-imam-who-called-for-jews-to-be-killed/

 

[moosaev]

Its funny how apologists always want others to become experts in your disgusting ideology as if actions world wide don't speak volumes enough.

How this for a fine example of your religion. https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...ed-for-imam-who-called-for-jews-to-be-killed/

You wanna play the game of linking articles of Christian and Jewish people doing crazy shit? We’ll be here all night bud lol.

 

[moosaev]

Case in Point-Boston Marathon Bomber

There was a very interesting long form article on the Boston bomber (the older brother who was a boxer) and
his motivations, the conclusion was it actually had little to do with Islam per say. He was a very bitter, angry and psychologically unbalanced guy and Islamic extremism was the cloak he used to act out his frustrations. They drank, smoked weed messed with women, etc. I’ll try to find the article and link it.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Actually the Quran is not nearly as aggressive as the Old Testament, like it’s not even close. That said, the verses on violence in the Quran are understood in a specific context. Nobody who is serious would claim that the Quran mandates that Muslims go around chopping the heads of disbelievers, that’s simply not true.

(Un)Luckily muslims also believe in the Old Testament.
The thing about killing unbelievers for Allah is obviously false but there is some debate that it's not wrong if they're contributing to the death of muslims. Now, most muslims will only accept killing people who go around murdering muslims but others will try to trace a path from being a citizen of a country, paying taxes to that country, such taxes are used to finance the military that is then used to kill muslims.
Another problem is that while 99% of muslims will not kill anybody a larger percentage will also turn a blind eye. After the Bataclan attacks the terrorists run away to Belgium and hid in a muslim majority neighborhood and nobody said anything. It's a bit like people in Sicily not talking about the Mafia, or people from certain areas that believe "snitches" are worse than criminals.

 

[Halifax]

Actually the Quran is not nearly as aggressive as the Old Testament, like it’s not even close. That said, the verses on violence in the Quran are understood in a specific context. Nobody who is serious would claim that the Quran mandates that Muslims go around chopping the heads of disbelievers, that’s simply not true.

Yes the old testament is full of passages that are a sack of turd too.


trying to say "but the radicals are taking it out of the context it was meant to be. It didn't reallllly mean to strike off their heads and hands" is disingenuous.

HUNDREDS of Millions of people follow draconian laws based on Islamic teachings. They stone women who are accused of adultery and cut hands off 10 year old starving kids for stealing a piece of bread. It sucks, but it is reality.

Nobody living today knows the context and interpretations meant when those fairy tales were written. They were written for the people of that time, for the men and women of their time and are interpreted by people of this time how they see fit.

its no different than how the right and left in America choose to interpret news completely differently in their own narrative. Just infinitely more barbaric when someone interprets it one way in countries that allow barbaric practices

 

[LukeSkyrocker]

Macron crushing the MSM like he crushed Trump's tiny hand.

Seems Trump would be on Macrons side for this one, no?

 

[Legicato]

You wanna play the game of linking articles of Christian and Jewish people doing crazy shit? We’ll be here all night bud lol.

We wouldn't, muslim make up the vast majority of world wide terrorism.

Most don't even bat an eye when 50 are killed by a muslim terror attack in africa or middle east, its a norm for you there.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Except we're talking about the actual motivation of those who carried out the acts of violence. Their motivation was belief that they were obeying the will of Allah as they had been taught it and as they understood it.

It's like a Christian who murders an abortion provider. That murder was 100% a product of the killer's Christian religious belief. Period. Full stop. What the majority of Christians (much less the New Testament itself) have to say about such a slaying is irrelevant to the perpetrator's subjective religious understanding.

Sure but you used the term "Islamic religious directive" as if the act was sanctioned by orthodox Islam institutions when the reality is quite the opposite.

 

[Rocco Siffredi]

Well he never bitched when the media did that to Trump.

Sure but you used the term "Islamic religious directive" as if the act was sanctioned by orthodox Islam institutions when the reality is quite the opposite.

The end goal of Islam is for a Caliphate to rule the world and for all non muslims to be subjugated. The end goal of christianity is the joining of heaven and earth.

 

[Seano]

Actually the Quran is not nearly as aggressive as the Old Testament, like it’s not even close. That said, the verses on violence in the Quran are understood in a specific context. Nobody who is serious would claim that the Quran mandates that Muslims go around chopping the heads of disbelievers, that’s simply not true.

And yet, they do.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Muslims should stay in their Islamic nations and the world will be better off.

We're not talking about Sweden here, the reason there are so many Muslims in France is because France went around meddling in Muslim nations. A chunk of the Algerians in France are descended from the Harki, the Algerians auxiliaries who fought for French rule during the Algerian War.

 

[HereticBD]

Actually the Quran is not nearly as aggressive as the Old Testament, like it’s not even close. That said, the verses on violence in the Quran are understood in a specific context. Nobody who is serious would claim that the Quran mandates that Muslims go around chopping the heads of disbelievers, that’s simply not true.

Actually, it's the serious people that do believe that.

Look, all old religious books have kooky, barbaric shit in them. It's up to the followers to evolve and move past it, while still maintaining their faith. A large portion of Muslims simply have not done that. The ones that supposedly have, don't strongly condemn those who haven't.

Muslims need to adapt to modern civilization. Not the other way around.