International ‘Founding principles HAVE BEEN LOST’: Macron blasts US media for legitimizing Islamist violence

[moosaev]

Please give me a specific example of something Macron should either say or do (that he has not yet) that you think would ease tensions between the Muslims and the secularists in France.

There has to be a multi-pronged government focus on lifting up the wayward youth that are easy picking for radicals. As a first step, the insistence to never take religious/racial census is counter productive. You can't improve what you can't measure, and there is rampant discrimination and under performance with this segment of society. Much of the allure of radicals is that they give disaffected youths a sense of belonging in a society that mostly shuns them. Right now there is no genuine appetite on the part of the French to help the disaffected youth and get creative solutions to problems, and that's largely driven by an obstinate view of what secularism means and how healthy their society is. The french are just so god damn self righteous and stubborn.

Job discrimation is much much worse in Europe than it is in the US.
https://psmag.com/news/hiring-discrimination-is-greater-in-france-and-sweden-than-in-the-u-s

Or are you suggesting the recent beheadings and stabbings and the massacre at Hebdo were somehow not fully the product of Islamic religious directives carried out by the Muslims who committed the acts?
.

They definitely weren't FULLY the product of Islamic religious directives. Nothing is ever fully one thing or another. For starters the killing of civilians is against Islam by every major ruling and religious tradition, so the terrorist acts can't be "Islamic" directives in the literal sense. They are political acts that are justified through self serving interpretations of Islam that are in the extreme minority. This is the nuance I'm talking about.

 

[ultramanhyata]

There has to be a multi-pronged government focus on lifting up the wayward youth that are easy picking for radicals. As a first step, the insistence to never take religious/racial census is counter productive.

You don't believe there would be mass outrage from French Muslims over such a blatant invasion of religious privacy? Forcing such a census would be gas on a fire. I can't believe you would suggest such a thing.

They definitely weren't FULLY the product of Islamic religious directives. Nothing is every fully one thing or another. For starters the killing of civilians is against Islam by every major ruling and religious tradition, so the terrorist acts can't be "Islamic" directives in the literal sense. They are political acts that are justified through self serving interpretations of Islam that are in the extreme minority. This is the nuance I'm talking about.

This is No True Scotsman stuff. People will argue to the end of humanity about which members of which religious traditions are the "real" followers of said religions.

Would you like to see France appoint a "real" Muslim to head up a governmental program to crackdown on any Muslims in France who are not practicing "true" Islam?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Macron is being a whiny bitch because even many Westerners don’t agree with his retarded approach on this. All this because a few outlets wrote semi critical Op Eds lol, pathetic.

Nobody actually legitimized the violence, he’s just being overly sensitive. The problem with Macron’s approach is he completely frames the problem through a single lens that just happens to absolve the French government of any and all responsibility. Macron is really a shitty leader, and very tone deaf.

He sounds almost like GWB with his "you're either with us or against us"

Also lol at him calling the US "heirs to the French Revolution", like bruh our Revolution came first. If anything they copied us.

Seems like he's not too keen on freedom of expression when it comes to criticizing himself and France. Or calling for boycotts.

Yeah basically this. Its an inherent tension in the French tradition, they supposedly stand for liberty but also support a statist style of nationalism which tends to crackdown on liberty.

How are Muslims being "scapegoated"?? And for what act or acts??

Or are you suggesting the recent beheadings and stabbings and the massacre at Hebdo were somehow not fully the product of Islamic religious directives carried out by the Muslims who committed the acts?

Please give me a specific example of something Macron should either say or do (that he has not yet) that you think would ease tensions between the Muslims and the secularists in France.

They're not though, there have been countless fatwas against terrorism and everyone from the Saudis to Al Azhar condemned the beheading of the teacher.

This is No True Scotsman stuff. People will argue to the end of humanity about which members of which religious traditions are the "real" followers of said religions.

Would you like to see France appoint a "real" Muslim to head up a governmental program to crackdown on any Muslims in France who are not practicing "true" Islam?

I wouldn't say they're not real Muslims just because they did that, its not my place to excommunicate other Muslims. But if a Muslim sells alcohol to donate the money for a supposedly Islamic cause that doesn't change the fact that selling alcohol is against Islamic principles even if in the mind of the Muslim doing it they think the ends justify the means.

 

[moosaev]

You don't believe there would be mass outrage from French Muslims over such a blatant invasion of religious privacy? Forcing such a census would be gas on a fire. I can't believe you would suggest such a thing.

I'm referring to a nation wide census, not one singling out Muslims. This would be similar to the census the US gov does.There's nothing crazy about that.

This is No True Scotsman stuff. People will argue to the end of humanity about which members of which religious traditions are the "real" followers of said religions.

Would you like to see France appoint a "real" Muslim to head up a governmental program to crackdown on any Muslims in France who are not practicing "true" Islam?

Its not a "no true scotsman" defense. Quite simply, there are things that are objectively Islamic and un-Islamic. Murder, rape, theft, etc. are all un-islamic, they're objectively not allowed in Islam. These are doctrinal facts, not opinions. Killing civilians is also doctrinally and unambiguously un-Islamic. So how on earth can terrorist acts be framed as "Islamic directives"? Terrorist acts are political directives couched in Islamic language. They aren't Islamic directives.

 

[chiefwiggum]

But that's what American leaders do too.

All cold war presidents - commie boogeyman
GWB - Radical Islam boogeyman
Trump - radical Islam boogeyman, migrant horde boogeyman, socialist boogeyman.

In all fairness trump shouldn’t be on a list of presidents that sought and created war. He was responsible for 0.

 

[ultramanhyata]

They're not though, there have been countless fatwas against terrorism and everyone from the Saudis to Al Azhar condemned the beheading of the teacher.

Except we're talking about the actual motivation of those who carried out the acts of violence. Their motivation was belief that they were obeying the will of Allah as they had been taught it and as they understood it.

It's like a Christian who murders an abortion provider. That murder was 100% a product of the killer's Christian religious belief. Period. Full stop. What the majority of Christians (much less the New Testament itself) have to say about such a slaying is irrelevant to the perpetrator's subjective religious understanding.

 

[ultramanhyata]

I'm referring to a nation wide census, not one singling out Muslims.

I understood that. Such an enforced census would be gas on a fire among the Muslim population beyond any shadow of any doubt.

This would be similar to the census the US gov does.

There was no question concerning religious affiliation included on the 2020 US Census.

Its not a "no true scotsman" defense. Quite simply, there are things that are objectively Islamic and un-Islamic. Murder, rape, theft, etc. are all un-islamic, they're objectively not allowed in Islam. These are doctrinal facts, not opinions. Killing civilians is also doctrinally and unambiguously un-Islamic. So how on earth can terrorist acts be framed as "Islamic directives"? Terrorist acts are political directives couched in Islamic language. They aren't Islamic directives.

You and I both know there are self-described schools of Islam that would have ready refutations for what you're claiming. Your argument here is the literal definition of the NTS fallacy. Only someone personally, emotionally invested in the religion couldn't see that.

 

[moosaev]

You and I both know there are self-described schools of Islam that would have ready refutations for what you're claiming. Your argument here is the literal definition of the NTS fallacy. Only someone personally, emotionally invested in the religion couldn't see that.

Please name these "self-described schools" of Islam. Who are they exactly, and how significant is their following? Every religion has heterodox factions within and consensus views don't necessarily reflect every faction, but there has to be a baseline of which groups reflect a religion's doctrines. Nobody would honestly claim that the Westboro Baptist Church has an equally valid interpretation of Christianity as compared to Catholics, Anglicans, etc. The overwhelming consensus in Islam is that killing unarmed civilians is strictly forbidden. That's a fact.

I understood that. Such an enforced census would be gas on a fire among the Muslim population beyond any shadow of any doubt.


.

The US census isn't enforced, its completely voluntary. You're a little too confident in your opinion of how the Muslim community would react to the suggestion of a census. I'd imagine how Muslims react would largely be driven by how it's framed. Reflexively shooting down suggestions won't get anybody anywhere. France should at least investigate doing a census and leveraging that to drive initiatives.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Base Macron?

 

[brody_in_ga]

I tuned you out as soon as you said Marxist lol. If you want to be taken seriously, don't go on unhinged anti marxist rants. Marxism isn't really a thing.

Delusional nonsense... And you couldn't rationally critique my position if you tried.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Please name these "self-described schools" of Islam. Who are they exactly, and how significant is their following? Every religion has heterodox factions within and consensus views don't necessarily reflect every faction, but there has to be a baseline of which groups reflect a religion's doctrines.

I've heard too many debates between scholars about interpretation of the Quran and the hadiths on this issue. Trying to litigate religious arguments is a fool's errand. What we do know is that the only modern nation states that carry out executions for the crime of blasphemy are those within the Muslim world. That's an objective fact.

The US census isn't enforced, its completely voluntary. You're a little too confident in your opinion of how the Muslim community would react to the suggestion of a census. I'd imagine how Muslims react would largely be driven by how it's framed. Reflexively shooting down suggestions won't get anybody anywhere. France should at least investigate doing a census and leveraging that to drive initiatives.

Are there large numbers of Muslims in France actually pushing for such a census? And to what end?

 

[moosaev]

I've heard too many debates between scholars about interpretation of the Quran and the hadiths on this issue. Trying to litigate religious arguments is a fool's errand. What we do know is that the only modern nation states that carry out executions for the crime of blasphemy are those within the Muslim world. That's an objective fact.

This is a cop out, calling bullshit on this. You haven't heard any serious "debates" between Islamic scholars on the issue of killing civilians, because its a settled and non-controversial issue. I think you've just accepted the notion that Islam by doctrine condones killing of civilians because its been said so many times. Please do you own research and try to think independently.

Also, pivoting to blasphemy laws is just a diversion, we're talking about whether terrorist acts (killing civilians) is justified by Islamic law, we're not talking about blasphemy laws in *some* Muslim countries.

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

I've been waiting so long for any high level politician to take a hard stance
on islamic culture. It's anti democratic and based on violence,
I don't care what color the followers are.
I'm not racist, I'm culturist
My culture is better than that culture.

I've seen what it did to Western Europe.
There are 6 times more North Africans in jail there than natives in some countries.
In the bad neighborhoods government built community centers offering
football and kickboxing classes.
And still there are many stabbings, religious threats and sexual harrassment.

So I don't believe the governments did anything wrong.
What are they supposed to do ? Offer all North Africans a free ride ?

The sad thing is, there is a percentage that lives a secular and peaceful life .
But they get intimidated by the violent group

I've seen not enough demonstrations by muslims to protest against Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe.

 

[Bacco]

Lmao at a piece of EU leftism being outraged by retard leftist propaganda, whole continent is infested by shit they spread

But as soon the retard gun is pointed at him is oh-mon-dieu, principles have been lost

He's obviously correct at treat as scum anybody taking nothing but condemning stance on recent terrorist attacks, but he's part of the western problem too, just like his predecessor sarkozy, who pretended to be one of the "right" (same as Merkel), when he was just a globalist
He's part of who is destroying french/european demographic identity, then cry when their game shows it's ugly face risking to give him problems

But whatever, point at some journalist scum on the other side of the ocean will surely solve the problem of the 7 tons elephant in the room, who's getting angrier and and bigger every year, without anybody trying to actually do something about it

Why he should care, he just need to keep things standing till the end of his mandate, then the one after him will win the elephant. And he will do the same.
Meanwhile french people will have to live with it

Tbh -majority of- french people voted for him, despite french should have realized long ago where this ideology is sending europe... still can't help myself from feel at least good portion of them lack awareness, propaganda+media control is a powerful combo

Elections exist, but is naive think powers don't have the smartness to bend the sheep opinion where they feel is better go

 

[Bacco]

In the bad neighborhoods government built community centers offering
football and kickboxing classes.
And still there are many stabbings, religious threats and sexual harrassment.

As former young kickboxer from shitty neighboorhood myself, imagine the mindset you need to offer scummy youth a fucking kickboxing class hoping this will calm shit down LOL

Of course there's the good "teh gym keept me out of teh streets", yet for each of that (assuming he truly stopped being scum) you get 2-3 that keep do same shit as before, but better trained lol

I love fight sports and they can develop good values too, but the whole fable that the ring somehow turn street kids into respectful mcdojo monks never fail to crack me up

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Muslims should stay in their Islamic nations and the world will be better off.

 

[ultramanhyata]

This is a cop out, calling bullshit on this. You haven't heard any serious "debates" between Islamic scholars on the issue of killing civilians, because its a settled and non-controversial issue. I think you've just accepted the notion that Islam by doctrine condones killing of civilians because its been said so many times. Please do you own research and try to think independently.

Also, pivoting to blasphemy laws is just a diversion, we're talking about whether terrorist acts (killing civilians) is justified by Islamic law, we're not talking about blasphemy laws in *some* Muslim countries.

You've outed yourself here. This clearly isn't about having a good faith dialogue but about you playing apologist for your religion. No thanks to further enabling that.

 

[Legicato]

Macron is being a whiny bitch because even many Westerners don’t agree with his retarded approach on this. All this because a few outlets wrote semi critical Op Eds lol, pathetic.

Nobody actually legitimized the violence, he’s just being overly sensitive. The problem with Macron’s approach is he completely frames the problem through a single lens that just happens to absolve the French government of any and all responsibility. Macron is really a shitty leader, and very tone deaf.

How is the French gov responsible for muslim terrorism due to their Islamic teachings ?

Everywhere muslims go in large number they commit terrorism, are the French responsible for muslim terrorisms in Canada ?

 

[Goonerview]

The backlash is mostly in the Muslim world, and thats because he basically said Islam has to change. Although i know what he was trying to say, this is also a very clumsy way to phrase things. The key thing many westerners don't understand is that "Islam" as a concept is considered perfect by Muslims, but Muslims are not considered perfect. Saying Islam *has* to change is pretty much like telling Muslims to give up their religion. So if Macron just re-phrased and said "Muslims have to change" i don't think he would've gotten the backlash he got. A lot of whats going on here is a very fundamental miscommunication from 2 cultures.

It’s almost like western civilization and Islam are incompatible.

 

[SanchoMF]

Why would a secular Muslim feel any kind of sting about what Macron has stated?
Actually fuck it ; if someone has a problem with a head of a nation that has encountered terrorist attacks addressing the issues with a clear message is just pandering to the ideology that causes the attacks in the first place.