Wrestling/BJJ combination most efficient for MMA?

Always interesting to see a thread you posted in years ago and read your own comments. Happy to say everything I said still stands up IMO. If anything, I've become even more convinced that wrestling is THE fundamental discipline in MMA. Even if you see more fights turn into striking contests, the ability to take someone down and hold them there, or conversely to get up when taken down are still in many ways the defining feature of most MMA fights. And to be very specific, I'm talking about American folkstyle wrestling, because the ability to ride people and get back to your feet against attempted rides are just as important as the takedown component.
 
Anyone who is amazing in 2 out of the 3 arts will be alright. Good striking plus good wrestling, Good striking with good BJJ, Good BJJ and Good wrestling all are good combos if you can only pick 2...
 
Anyone who is amazing in 2 out of the 3 arts will be alright. Good striking plus good wrestling, Good striking with good BJJ, Good BJJ and Good wrestling all are good combos if you can only pick 2...

I'd argue that good BJJ and good striking is not enough to win consistently, for the simple reason that without the ability to defend the TD or escape and get back up when taken down (which, let's be honest, is not really a part of the BJJ metagame) you're vulnerable to losing every round on your back getting beat up. I think what many BJJ guys who haven't trained much MMA aren't viscerally aware of is the degree to which solid top control, with no intention of advancing position but punches allowed, is enough to dominate you. Maybe not finish you, but definitely dominate you for 3 rounds. There are some very good wrestlers at my MMA gym and while they never pass my guard, I can't sweep them and I can't get off my back. I may not take many shots because I'm pretty decent at jiu jitsu, but I'm definitely not winning any rounds against them. Ever.

You can win with good wrestling and BJJ like Demain Maia, you can win with good striking and good wrestling like virtually all successful top level pros have, but I think the days of only striking and BJJ being enough are behind us. The only discipline you can virtually win with on its own is wrestling. That's still true if you're a good enough wrestler like someone like Khabib, it's just rare to see because most UFC fighters have good enough wrestling to nullify a pure wrestling attack.
 
I am not sure about the 2 of the 3 disciplines thing, take the Gilbert Burns case for instance, he has decent striking (Vitor Belfort protegee and trained with Hooft for years), great wrestling, world class bjj and great athleticism, on paper he is made for mma.
The guy beat Leandro Lo in a nogi match when he was already full time into mma



In the UFC he has been inconsistent, when he faced opponents with impeccable takedown defence and better striking than him he was hopeless.
There isn't a magic key to win a mma match, if the opponent has a glaring weakness or your have an elite background in a martial art, taking the fight where you are most comfortable is the goal, but most of the time in today high level mma you need to win every single exchange and transition and be impeccable, a mistake and you are toasted.
 
I'd argue that good BJJ and good striking is not enough to win consistently, for the simple reason that without the ability to defend the TD or escape and get back up when taken down (which, let's be honest, is not really a part of the BJJ metagame) you're vulnerable to losing every round on your back getting beat up. I think what many BJJ guys who haven't trained much MMA aren't viscerally aware of is the degree to which solid top control, with no intention of advancing position but punches allowed, is enough to dominate you. Maybe not finish you, but definitely dominate you for 3 rounds. There are some very good wrestlers at my MMA gym and while they never pass my guard, I can't sweep them and I can't get off my back. I may not take many shots because I'm pretty decent at jiu jitsu, but I'm definitely not winning any rounds against them. Ever.

You can win with good wrestling and BJJ like Demain Maia, you can win with good striking and good wrestling like virtually all successful top level pros have, but I think the days of only striking and BJJ being enough are behind us. The only discipline you can virtually win with on its own is wrestling. That's still true if you're a good enough wrestler like someone like Khabib, it's just rare to see because most UFC fighters have good enough wrestling to nullify a pure wrestling attack.
Yeah that's the thing. The vast majority of bjj people do not understand how being ridden when you want to get away feels vs how it looks in the context of "traditional" bjj meta
 
Yeah that's the thing. The vast majority of bjj people do not understand how being ridden when you want to get away feels vs how it looks in the context of "traditional" bjj meta

BJJ people don't want to get away, and their opponents don't want to ride them. The bottom guy wants to defend and reverse (or get back to guard), the top guy wants to advance position and submit. It's very, very different to be on the bottom of someone trying to get their hooks in vs. someone just trying to break you down and punch you without necessarily getting to a more dominant position. You have many, many fewer chances to reverse, you have to actively seek escape rather than defending and waiting for your chance to re-guard since if nothing else trying to escape makes it harder for him to punch you.
 
I'd argue that good BJJ and good striking is not enough to win consistently, for the simple reason that without the ability to defend the TD or escape and get back up when taken down (which, let's be honest, is not really a part of the BJJ metagame) you're vulnerable to losing every round on your back getting beat up. I think what many BJJ guys who haven't trained much MMA aren't viscerally aware of is the degree to which solid top control, with no intention of advancing position but punches allowed, is enough to dominate you. Maybe not finish you, but definitely dominate you for 3 rounds. There are some very good wrestlers at my MMA gym and while they never pass my guard, I can't sweep them and I can't get off my back. I may not take many shots because I'm pretty decent at jiu jitsu, but I'm definitely not winning any rounds against them. Ever.

You can win with good wrestling and BJJ like Demain Maia, you can win with good striking and good wrestling like virtually all successful top level pros have, but I think the days of only striking and BJJ being enough are behind us. The only discipline you can virtually win with on its own is wrestling. That's still true if you're a good enough wrestler like someone like Khabib, it's just rare to see because most UFC fighters have good enough wrestling to nullify a pure wrestling attack.


I will agree that BJJ/striking is prolly the the least feasible because of the scoring and stuff. You are right that a good wrestler with top control would have a decent shot at winning on points - but take the Maia Woodley fight. If Maia had sick striking, the Woodley fight would have obviously been a very different fight.
 
I will agree that BJJ/striking is prolly the the least feasible because of the scoring and stuff. You are right that a good wrestler with top control would have a decent shot at winning on points - but take the Maia Woodley fight. If Maia had sick striking, the Woodley fight would have obviously been a very different fight.


Yeah, Woodley probably would have looked to take him down instead.
 
sorry just to clarify

my counter points are

1. Judo is the second most participated sport on the planet next to soccer

2. More countries have judo Olympic teams then wrestling... there are more elite judoka then wrestlers around... you would probably find about 10 - 20 judo clubs to every decent wrestling gym in the UK for example and that goes for a lot of europe

3. Judoka practice in the gi... you cannot get more sport specific then training without the gi for mma

4. You can't attack the legs

5. judoka don't give a shit about mma, they compete in judo as grown adults and the vast majority is not interested in MMA
 
I am not sure about the 2 of the 3 disciplines thing, take the Gilbert Burns case for instance, he has decent striking (Vitor Belfort protegee and trained with Hooft for years), great wrestling, world class bjj and great athleticism, on paper he is made for mma.
The guy beat Leandro Lo in a nogi match when he was already full time into mma



In the UFC he has been inconsistent, when he faced opponents with impeccable takedown defence and better striking than him he was hopeless.
There isn't a magic key to win a mma match, if the opponent has a glaring weakness or your have an elite background in a martial art, taking the fight where you are most comfortable is the goal, but most of the time in today high level mma you need to win every single exchange and transition and be impeccable, a mistake and you are toasted.

Having an okay body lock doesn't mean you're great at wrestling. If he was great he would have chain wrestled his way to getting guys like Magomedov down, and wouldn't have wasted so much energy on pathetic shots like he did vs Oliviera. He is a mediocre wrestler at best.
 
Having an okay body lock doesn't mean you're great at wrestling. If he was great he would have chain wrestled his way to getting guys like Magomedov down, and wouldn't have wasted so much energy on pathetic shots like he did vs Oliviera. He is a mediocre wrestler at best.
Nobody gets Magomedov down and Oliveira is ragdolling guys at WW, everybody is good these days that was my point.
 
I am not sure about the 2 of the 3 disciplines thing, take the Gilbert Burns case for instance, he has decent striking (Vitor Belfort protegee and trained with Hooft for years), great wrestling, world class bjj and great athleticism, on paper he is made for mma.
The guy beat Leandro Lo in a nogi match when he was already full time into mma



In the UFC he has been inconsistent, when he faced opponents with impeccable takedown defence and better striking than him he was hopeless.
There isn't a magic key to win a mma match, if the opponent has a glaring weakness or your have an elite background in a martial art, taking the fight where you are most comfortable is the goal, but most of the time in today high level mma you need to win every single exchange and transition and be impeccable, a mistake and you are toasted.


I don't think that's true at all. Very few fights between top guys have one guy winning all the exchanges. Much more important than winning every exchange is determining over the course of the fight as a whole when the exchanges occur and in what dimension of the fight in such a way as to give yourself the best chance at winning more of them than your opponent. If you're a wrestler you don't have to finish every TD, but you better be able to make most of the exchanges wrestling exchanges rather than striking ones, and you better win the majority of those exchanges if you want to win. Likewise if you're a striker you don't have to stuff every TD, but you better be able to stuff enough of them and make your opponent pay for coming in to make sure you get your chances to work at distance. Usually when you see dominant champions what they're good at is not winning every exchange, they're good at making almost every exchange happen in their preferred dimension. Jones and DJ in the clinch, GSP in wrestling off of strikes, Aldo in keeping the fight in mid-kickboxing range, etc. You can see that too in fights where champs have problems. Look at Anderson Silva: most of his fights he was very good at keeping people on the edge of his punching range, and he'd just fuck them up from there. But when someone came in with the intention to make all the exchanges wrestling exchanges (the first Chael Sonnen fight), Silva got manhandled for 4.5 rounds and was only saved by Sonnen's Achilles heel lack of submission defense. Cormier later did the same thing to him; even if that fight was on short notice Silva still didn't have an answer for someone who could force the fight into wrestling exchanges.
 
I will agree that BJJ/striking is prolly the the least feasible because of the scoring and stuff. You are right that a good wrestler with top control would have a decent shot at winning on points - but take the Maia Woodley fight. If Maia had sick striking, the Woodley fight would have obviously been a very different fight.

This is a problem with current MMA scoring more than anything, which is honestly tailored more to pleasing the viewer - viewers don't understand or like it when someone wins on points from the bottom (like they did in PRIDE). This makes the ability to "escape" the bottom position and either get back to standing or reverse to a takedown much more important than doing damage and threatening subs, placing some BJJ players (depending on their style) at a bit of a disadvantage, particularly in the guard-centric world of modern BJJ. Thus the importance of a wrestling background to MMA is elevated even higher than it would be normally, because escaping back to standing is something wrestlers tend to be pretty good at.

Back in the day having an attacking guard could win stuff. Kenny Florian style elbows, heel kicks to the kidneys, etc etc mixed in with sweeps and subs to keep it active.
 
Did Busta take Lindland down? As for dan henderson, he really hasn't had great mma wrestling (TD defense wise) he has been taken down by lesser wrestlers/fighters. But if you would want to nit pick, yes BUSTA did take him down. However i stand by my statement, the btt's takedown ability has been greatly exaggerated.

bustamante took Lindland down twice, more if I'm not mistaken
 
I don't think that's true at all. Very few fights between top guys have one guy winning all the exchanges. Much more important than winning every exchange is determining over the course of the fight as a whole when the exchanges occur and in what dimension of the fight in such a way as to give yourself the best chance at winning more of them than your opponent. If you're a wrestler you don't have to finish every TD, but you better be able to make most of the exchanges wrestling exchanges rather than striking ones, and you better win the majority of those exchanges if you want to win. Likewise if you're a striker you don't have to stuff every TD, but you better be able to stuff enough of them and make your opponent pay for coming in to make sure you get your chances to work at distance. Usually when you see dominant champions what they're good at is not winning every exchange, they're good at making almost every exchange happen in their preferred dimension. Jones and DJ in the clinch, GSP in wrestling off of strikes, Aldo in keeping the fight in mid-kickboxing range, etc. You can see that too in fights where champs have problems. Look at Anderson Silva: most of his fights he was very good at keeping people on the edge of his punching range, and he'd just fuck them up from there. But when someone came in with the intention to make all the exchanges wrestling exchanges (the first Chael Sonnen fight), Silva got manhandled for 4.5 rounds and was only saved by Sonnen's Achilles heel lack of submission defense. Cormier later did the same thing to him; even if that fight was on short notice Silva still didn't have an answer for someone who could force the fight into wrestling exchanges.
Well, i expressed myself not well, i kinda wanted to say the same thing but the point was the goal should be winning every exchange.
Aldo fights at mid kickboxing range because it's where he has the best changes to win every exchange, same thing with Jones and DJ in the clinch, obviously at the highest level nobody is gonna win every exchange, literally, but that should be the goal, and to attain that you need to fight safe, fight smart and know your opponent.

Today we don't see fights like this anymore



The best kickboxer ever pulling guard from standing because he had a guillotine that wasn't even tight, than got mounted by the superior grappler and the grappler got reversed from mount because the kickboxer bridged holding his wrists, something you see from a one stripe white belt.
Back in the day i remember a lot of fights where one guy mounted the opponent, gassed try to finish and then got his ass kicked, but that was in the past.

The difference between mma 10 years ago and today is like the difference between some of the blue and purple belts world championships matched in bjj compared to the black belts.
A lot of the blue and purple belts matches are super exciting, one guy mount the opponent, the opponent escapes, take his back... and the match ends 11-14.
That rarely happens at black belt, a lot of the matches end with advantage points and there is a lot of stalling because one mistake and the fight is lost.

Another great example is Woodley, Tyron Woodley fought the perfect fight against Maia, he didn't won every exchange, literally, but it was pretty damn close to perfection, he didn't gave Maia anything to work with, that's high level mma in 2017.
That fight maybe wasn't exciting but Woodley minimized his chances to lose and shut down Maia completely.
GSP made his career doing this, the guy was the first modern, ultra prepared mma fighter, always fought safe, but he always won.
If there are fighters that brawl like Robbie Lawler is not that they try to be exciting, but that is where they thrive and they have the biggest change to win, but still everything is properly thought, Lawler didn't came out gun blazing against Woodley like he did against Cerrone, and against MacDonald he took two rounds to read the opponent.
 
Never understood the "usual formula" of wrestlers entering MMA, they are usually coached to become strikers and learn just enough jiu-jitsu to skate by. They already have the skills to get the fight to the mat, why not have some strong sub skills to add into the mix?
 
Never understood the "usual formula" of wrestlers entering MMA, they are usually coached to become strikers and learn just enough jiu-jitsu to skate by. They already have the skills to get the fight to the mat, why not have some strong sub skills to add into the mix?

Because if you're consistently on top, you don't need to be able to submit people to win. It's great if you can, but the wrestling formula in MMA isn't BJJ-style positional domination leading to submission, it's wrestling style positional domination leading to you being able to punch the guy repeatedly without him getting up. It's riding and doing damage. The striking should just be there (initially at least) to set up the takedowns.
 
there is no reality where Woodley wanted to be on the ground with maia, even on top.


There is in the fictional hypothetical reality where Maia is a K1 striker looking to strike with Woodley.
 
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