Wrestling/BJJ combination most efficient for MMA?

[snakeybizz]

Wrestler/boxers ftw

^^^^ this

wrestling, boxing and bjj has shown to be the blueprint for the best fighters today

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Did Busta take Lindland down? As for dan henderson, he really hasn't had great mma wrestling (TD defense wise) he has been taken down by lesser wrestlers/fighters. But if you would want to nit pick, yes BUSTA did take him down. However i stand by my statement, the btt's takedown ability has been greatly exaggerated.

I agree that their wrestling has often been retrospectively overrated, but for the period they were outliers in that they trained it properly with real wrestlers. Bustamante, as a result, took down every "college or above" wrestler (Jackson, Liddel, Henderson, Lindland, Menne) he ever fought except Tom Erickson who was twice his size and Jesse Taylor at the arse-end of his career, so your choice of evidence was particularly poor.

Mario Sperry never fought anyone who wrestled in college AFAIK.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

I think the only reason wrestling is the most dominant is simply because of the sample size.

For many high school and collegiate wrestlers, there's no avenue for them to use their skills upon finishing their education, so MMA is a good route. You also have to factor in that the UFC is an American company (as are the majority of MMA orgs), and wrestling is a big part of American high school and college sports, leading to 9/10 American MMA fighters having some sort of wrestling background.

 

[snakeybizz]

I think the only reason wrestling is the most dominant is simply because of the sample size.

For many high school and collegiate wrestlers, there's no avenue for them to use their skills upon finishing their education, so MMA is a good route. You also have to factor in that the UFC is an American company (as are the majority of MMA orgs), and wrestling is a big part of American high school and college sports, leading to 9/10 American MMA fighters having some sort of wrestling background.

you keep telling yourself that...wrestling is superior to any other takedown style for no gi combat

 

[Thai Otoshi]

you keep telling yourself that...wrestling is superior to any other takedown style for no gi combat

What, no preteens to beat up?

Also, you didn't actually refute anything I'm saying. I'm only talking sample size. I never said that wrestling isn't excellent for no gi martial arts, but if say judo or sambo were represented in America in the same numbers as wrestling, with the same lack of avenues to compete after college, can you really say with a straight face that MMA would be filled with the same wrestling-dominated top 10 lists as it is now?

The few judo and sambo practitioners present in MMA are tearing it up. Rousey, Lombard, Nurmagomedov....

 

[snakeybizz]

What, no preteens to beat up?

Also, you didn't actually refute anything I'm saying. I never said that wrestling isn't excellent for no gi martial arts, but if say judo or sambo were represented in America in the same numbers as wrestling, with the same lack of avenues to compete after college, can you really say with a straight face that MMA would be filled with the same wrestling-dominated top 10 lists as it is now?

sorry just to clarify

my counter points are

1. Judo is the second most participated sport on the planet next to soccer

2. More countries have judo Olympic teams then wrestling... there are more elite judoka then wrestlers around... you would probably find about 10 - 20 judo clubs to every decent wrestling gym in the UK for example and that goes for a lot of europe

3. Judoka practice in the gi... you cannot get more sport specific then training without the gi for mma

4. You can't attack the legs

 

[RTD1]

If they ever let Renato Laranja into the Octagon, he'll show everyone that BJJ is all you need.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

sorry just to clarify

my counter points are

1. Judo is the second most participated sport on the planet next to soccer

2. More countries have judo Olympic teams then wrestling... there are more elite judoka then wrestlers around... you would probably find about 10 - 20 judo clubs to every decent wrestling gym in the UK for example and that goes for a lot of europe

3. Judoka practice in the gi... you cannot get more sport specific then training without the gi for mma

4. You can't attack the legs

You've completely missed my point.

1. Judo also has local, regional, national, and international level tournaments that any judoka can compete in, which are completely independent from collegiate sports. Thus there are still many avenues for judoka to compete in judo outside of MMA. College wrestlers do not have those same avenues to compete, so many turn to MMA.
2. Once again, I'm talking about sample size in relation to the application of grappling arts to MMA. Those same elite judoka you mentioned are still able to compete in judo long after finishing college. College wrestlers cannot, or at least not as easily, so many turn to MMA.
3. I know that judoka practice in a gi, but don't forget that sambo guys practice in a kurtka... which hasn't stopped the judo and sambo guys from transitioning to MMA like Fedor, Rousey, Lombard, Nurmagomedov, Akiyama....
4. Yes you can. A good portion of judo techniques do indeed attack the legs.

 

[rmongler]

If guys like Fedor or khabib represent anything, its how good sambo is.

 

[DoctorTaco]

^^^^ this

wrestling, boxing and bjj has shown to be the blueprint for the best fighters today

I'm still a firm believer in needing a kicking art in there- Muay Thai, Dutch, or kyokushin

 

[Uchi Mata]

You've completely missed my point.

1. Judo also has local, regional, national, and international level tournaments that any judoka can compete in, which are completely independent from collegiate sports. Thus there are still many avenues for judoka to compete in judo outside of MMA. College wrestlers do not have those same avenues to compete, so many turn to MMA.
2. Once again, I'm talking about sample size in relation to the application of grappling arts to MMA. Those same elite judoka you mentioned are still able to compete in judo long after finishing college. College wrestlers cannot, or at least not as easily, so many turn to MMA.
3. I know that judoka practice in a gi, but don't forget that sambo guys practice in a kurtka... which hasn't stopped the judo and sambo guys from transitioning to MMA like Fedor, Rousey, Lombard, Nurmagomedov, Akiyama....
4. Yes you can. A good portion of judo techniques do indeed attack the legs.

I'm going to take issue with this. Whether a technique is in some manual is meaningless, all that matters is what you spend all your time working on. For most competitive judoka, that's some combination of seio nage, uchi mata, osoto and ouchi gari, footsweeps, and a few turnovers and submissions from turtle. Let's not pretend that Judo gives you great leg attacks just because leg attacks are in the gokyo. They've been illegal for a while now, most Judo guys suck at them and suck at defending them. Judo develops great attributes for MMA, but in terms of direct skills transfer, wrestling has clearly had more success. You can certainly argue that there haven't been many elite judoka enter MMA and you'd be right, but the ones that have haven't really covered themselves in glory the way elite wrestlers have by and large. Take one example: Pawel Nastula. He entered MMA later in life after an elite Judo career, and he really didn't do so well. Can we find a comparable wrestler or two who also entered MMA late in life? We can. Randy Couture and Dan Cormier both fit that bill, and both have had a lot more success than Nastula or Satoshi Ishii or Yoshida or any of the elite judoka who have entered MMA. The only examples of judoka who entered MMA and won belts are Ronda and Fedor, and both of them are bad examples because Fedor's background was more combat sambo and Ronda is in an extremely weak division that makes it hard to assess her true level of MMA skill (plus her Judo upbringing was very odd, as it was mixed heavily with Gokor and LeBell's sambo/almost catch style of grappling).

So is there sample bias? Yes, there is. But for the samples we do have of Judoka entering MMA, the results are not all that encouraging for the Judo guys.

 

[snakeybizz]

I'm still a firm believer in needing a kicking art in there- Muay Thai, Dutch, or kyokushin

yea I'm with you on that... all I was saying is you see a few elite people get buy with out kicking, specifically the wrestle boxers, velasquez, cormier and weidman etc

but yeah I agree... having a kicking art can only make you more complete... you could name a bunch of all time greats with a kicking art

 

[Gojujutsu]

You've completely missed my point.

1. Judo also has local, regional, national, and international level tournaments that any judoka can compete in, which are completely independent from collegiate sports. Thus there are still many avenues for judoka to compete in judo outside of MMA. College wrestlers do not have those same avenues to compete, so many turn to MMA.
2. Once again, I'm talking about sample size in relation to the application of grappling arts to MMA. Those same elite judoka you mentioned are still able to compete in judo long after finishing college. College wrestlers cannot, or at least not as easily, so many turn to MMA.
3. I know that judoka practice in a gi, but don't forget that sambo guys practice in a kurtka... which hasn't stopped the judo and sambo guys from transitioning to MMA like Fedor, Rousey, Lombard, Nurmagomedov, Akiyama....
4. Yes you can. A good portion of judo techniques do indeed attack the legs.

Plus, as you also had previously mentioned, the sample size tends to naturally focus on the US, where wrestling is ridiculously larger than any other grappling style.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

I'm going to take issue with this. Whether a technique is in some manual is meaningless, all that matters is what you spend all your time working on. For most competitive judoka, that's some combination of seio nage, uchi mata, osoto and ouchi gari, footsweeps, and a few turnovers and submissions from turtle. Let's not pretend that Judo gives you great leg attacks just because leg attacks are in the gokyo. They've been illegal for a while now, most Judo guys suck at them and suck at defending them. Judo develops great attributes for MMA, but in terms of direct skills transfer, wrestling has clearly had more success. You can certainly argue that there haven't been many elite judoka enter MMA and you'd be right, but the ones that have haven't really covered themselves in glory the way elite wrestlers have by and large. Take one example: Pawel Nastula. He entered MMA later in life after an elite Judo career, and he really didn't do so well. Can we find a comparable wrestler or two who also entered MMA late in life? We can. Randy Couture and Dan Cormier both fit that bill, and both have had a lot more success than Nastula or Satoshi Ishii or Yoshida or any of the elite judoka who have entered MMA. The only examples of judoka who entered MMA and won belts are Ronda and Fedor, and both of them are bad examples because Fedor's background was more combat sambo and Ronda is in an extremely weak division that makes it hard to assess her true level of MMA skill (plus her Judo upbringing was very odd, as it was mixed heavily with Gokor and LeBell's sambo/almost catch style of grappling).

So is there sample bias? Yes, there is. But for the samples we do have of Judoka entering MMA, the results are not all that encouraging for the Judo guys.

I don't believe it should be all or nothing. You don't have to be a champion to be considered a successful fighter. There was a reason that my earlier post mentioned "if say judo or sambo were represented in America in the same numbers as wrestling, with the same lack of avenues to compete after college, can you really say with a straight face that MMA would be filled with the same wrestling-dominated top 10 lists as it is now?"

I also never said anything about "pure" judo you're implying in regards to Rousey, nor did I only mention judo. I said "judo and sambo." I didn't specify which sambo style, nor did I specify only IJF rules judo. In addition, you'll notice that Fedor and Rousey aren't the only names I mentioned.

@leg attacks: I concede largely because it is not central to my argument.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't believe it should be all or nothing. You don't have to be a champion to be considered a successful fighter. There was a reason that my earlier post mentioned "if say judo or sambo were represented in America in the same numbers as wrestling, with the same lack of avenues to compete after college, can you really say with a straight face that MMA would be filled with the same wrestling-dominated top 10 lists as it is now?"

I also never said anything about "pure" judo you're implying in regards to Rousey, nor did I only mention judo. I said "judo and sambo." I didn't specify which sambo style, nor did I specify only IJF rules judo. In addition, you'll notice that Fedor and Rousey aren't the only names I mentioned.

@leg attacks: I concede largely because it is not central to my argument.

Like I said, I do think there's some sampling bias. But it's worth looking into MMA in countries where wrestling isn't as dominant and see who's winning titles. I'll argue that even in PRIDE, which featured a wide array of fighters from many disciplines and took place in the birthplace of Judo and featured many Japanese fighters with some Judo background, wrestlers still outperformed relative to their number. And it's not like non-elite judoka have that many avenues for remunerative competition after college, in any country. The equivalent to the wrestler turned teacher or firefighter coming into MMA in the US would be the Japanese policeman coming into MMA in Japan, and I don't recall ever seeing a scenario like that where the fighter went on to have success (i.e. someone who had done the sport at a reasonably high but not international elite level but who had taken years off).

Keep in mind, I'm a Judo guy. I love Judo. But as with every grappling art, there are pieces that are useful for the sport that aren't useful for MMA, and I think a greater % of Judo (and sport BJJ for that matter) is useless in MMA than what you learn wrestling. A lot of that is the gi, but it's also the nature of the victory conditions and restrictive rules on attacking in Judo. There is simply no other widely practiced grappling art other than American folkstyle wrestling that emphasizes standing grappling with leg attack based takedowns and smothering ground control. Those techniques have been shown again and again (and not just by American wrestlers) to the be the foundation of grappling success in MMA. For what it's worth, I think Greco and freestyle are also less apt to transfer to MMA than American folk, just because Greco lacks the leg attacks and riding and freestyle focuses more on the big throws and lacks riding.

 

[Bobbybackpack]

Of course given that the fighter is well rounded in all aspects. I'm just saying the most BJJ guys in mma have lost some efficiency because of the lack of skill to take someone down.

Imagine a guy with GSP's wrestling with Souza's jiu jitsu. That would make a hell of a fighter.

GSP is a bjj black belt. Plus imagine Matt Hughes' wrestling and Maia's BJJ

 

[Bobbybackpack]

As long as the bjj is world class.

A world class wrestler with a brown belt in bjj is dangerous on the ground

 

[Bobbybackpack]

Do nothing but guard recovery, open guard, superman punches and spinning Kyokushin kicks. Let the other guy take you down and profit.

Lol its effective but risky Someonwith a dangerous top game can fuck you up.
Eg Chael Sonnen, Jones, Ortiz, Khabib.

 

[Bubblun]

Are you sure you are watching mma in 2017?
Because we are seeing more and more high level striking.

Like Bisping says, it's a lot easier and less taxing defending the takedown than consistently going for the takedown, even if we are talking about world class wrestlers.
Demian Maia is the last of the mohicans.

 

[jack36767]

All hail the holy necro