Without any snark or sarcasm list things you respect about the ideology opposite of yours.

[Islam Imamate]

What I'm saying is that it's pretty easy to gain ground if you're way behind. They'll hit a wall without a better system of gov't eventually.

I wonder if its possible that certain informal mechanisms might develop in the Chinese system to help absorb popular pressure without recourse to institutions that are formally democratic. That kind of arrangement is less reliable than formal mechanisms are but China has a culture that emphasizes deference to hierarchy and authority so I think its possible for it to sustain such an arrangement.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I wonder if its possible that certain informal mechanisms might develop in the Chinese system to help absorb popular pressure without recourse to institutions that are formally democratic. That kind of arrangement is less reliable than formal mechanisms are but China has a culture that emphasizes deference to hierarchy and authority so I think its possible for it to sustain such an arrangement.

Don't know about that cultural thing. They've had four major, successful uprisings against the existing gov't since 1911, right?

 

[Shoemaker]

I kind of liked the "name things about Trump you admire" thread better. Everyone has a slightly different ideology, so I'd effectively be complimenting an abstract strawman and not an actual person in this thread.

No offense intended to the OP, but I think breaking down an entire population into two distinct groups and focusing those groups instead of individuals is part of what leads to division. Strawman liberal vs. strawman conservative are going to hate each other, always. Meanwhile, I have great personal relationships with people of different ideologies. And most people I know, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, don't have "opposite" ideologies. It's very rare for me to find someone who's beliefs don't overlap with mine is some respects.

If I look at each group not as a homogenous entity but as a collection of individuals, I don't see qualities in one side that I don't see in some respects in the other. Work ethic? Both. Compassion? Both. Strength? Both. Intellectualism? Both. Almost any admirable quality you'll find in someone on one side, you'll also find in someone on the other side.



tl;dr I'll admire and compliment people for who they are, not for who they identify with.

 

[SBJJ]

So are you going to provide your position or keep wasting time? Jack's post points out one huge problem, so adding that would make sense too.

Or don't and basically validate my first thought that your answer would be nutty.

I already did like a page back. So I'm not the one wasting time

The "Rich" always escape most taxes. I have 2 multi millionaire family members who have not paid ANY federal taxes for at least a decade

A consumption tax would force them to pay the taxes. And you could exempt or rebate the first 50k of purchases. U also tax the black market this way.

Now this is the 2nd time I've posted this

 

[Islam Imamate]

Don't know about that cultural thing. They've had four major, successful uprisings against the existing gov't since 1911, right?

That's true and I'd never claim that this cultural element makes the government immune from popular resistance. That is why I said if the current regime wants to stay in power they need to keep delivering gains in poverty reduction while keeping wealth inequality under control, even if not as efficiently as a liberal democratic regime might. Authoritarian regimes are more vulnerable to the politically destabilizing effects of wealth inequality because there's no democratic safety valve to let off of the pressure.

The rising inequality in the Arab world was a major factor behind the eventually uprisings there but compared to other parts of the world its not that unequal, its just that the people weren't willing to accept inequality and a police state at the same time. The Chinese government is more capable than the corrupt Arab governments and this is where I think the deference to authority comes into play as it gives the population a higher, though not limitless, tolerance for authoritarianism.

 

[nac386]

I kind of liked the "name things about Trump you admire" thread better. Everyone has a slightly different ideology, so I'd effectively be complimenting an abstract strawman and not an actual person in this thread.

No offense intended to the OP, but I think breaking down an entire population into two distinct groups and focusing those groups instead of individuals is part of what leads to division. Strawman liberal vs. strawman conservative are going to hate each other, always. Meanwhile, I have great personal relationships with people of different ideologies. And most people I know, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, don't have "opposite" ideologies. It's very rare for me to find someone who's beliefs don't overlap with mine is some respects.

If I look at each group not as a homogenous entity but as a collection of individuals, I don't see qualities in one side that I don't see in some respects in the other. Work ethic? Both. Compassion? Both. Strength? Both. Intellectualism? Both. Almost any admirable quality you'll find in someone on one side, you'll also find in someone on the other side.



tl;dr I'll admire and compliment people for who they are, not for who they identify with.

Yeah, I had a hard time figuring out what the "opposite ideology" from my own even was. I didn't respond to the thread because I didn't even understand the question.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I already did like a page back

The "Rich" always escape most taxes. I have 2 multi millionaire family members who have not paid ANY federal taxes for at least a decade

A consumption tax would force them to pay the taxes. And you could exempt or rebate the first 50k of purchases. U also tax the black market this way.

Now this is the 2nd time I've posted this

Rich people find ways to get around those taxes as well though. I have well off family from a third world country that has tariffs which make consumer goods more expensive so they just buy stuff in America instead.

The reality is even though rich people are in the best position to pay taxes they're also more capable of avoiding them so relying on progressive taxation seems difficult when money can move so easily between countries.

 

[Shoemaker]

Yeah, I had a hard time figuring out what the "opposite ideology" from my own even was. I didn't respond to the thread because I didn't even understand the question.

The only thing I can think of as truly "opposite" is if there is someone out there who's only belief is "Shoemaker must die." So cats, I guess.

 

[SBJJ]

Rich people find ways to get around those taxes as well though. I have well off family from a third world country that has tariffs which make consumer goods more expensive so they just stuff in America instead.

The reality is even though rich people are in the best position to pay taxes they're also more capable of avoiding them so relying on progressive taxation seems difficult when money can move so easily between countries.

Stuff in America instead?

Lol. So they are going to buy all there groceries and consumables from other countries

 

[Islam Imamate]

Stuff in America instead?

Meant they "buy stuff in America instead"

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I think that last part is slightly off. As I said, you need an out-group to have an in-group. If everyone looks, sounds, and believes the same, there's no out-group. That's one of the problems with the arguments for homogeneity. Good piece on that here:

http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-siren-song-of-homogeneity.html

Great piece, though I only got to read about a third of it.

Very often in the WR I bring up the countless wars among Europeans throughout history prior to the 20th century- when it was 99.9% white- as proof that the white-only land they fantasize about so much maybe wouldn't be as glorious as they'd imagine.

I guess the jury is still out. There are too many variables to take into account. Religion, size, migration, ethnicity, etc. The "sense of community on the right" that I was referring to is set squarely in post WWII, rural and suburban US, somewhere in the Midwest and Deep South. Basically the heart of today's conservative America.

For this group, the out-group were nonwhites and urban dwellers. Similar to today's political picture except that back then, the numbers were pretty different. The Midwest, Deep South, small to medium-town white America was probably 60%+ of the total population. Now they're likely less than 1/3 or 1/4, and feeling much more threatened.

It's also important to point out that out-group threat increases in-group cohesion. That's an old sociology adage that's tried and true.

I don't think authoritarianism works as well as democracy (one reason is actually laid out by Hayek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_knowledge_problem), but, yeah, I am a liberal even though I grant some merit to many aspects of right-wing thought. BTW, it goes without saying that the movement isn't the same as the thought. If the thread was asking for a list of right-wing thinkers I respect--living or dead--I could do that, too, though.

Like whom? Heidegger is the only one that I can think of that gets near-universal respect.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

why?

Because these two lead to freedom, and freedom is the highest human value. So much so that it's self-justifying.

This idea goes back to the Enlightenment.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Its not about the political victories, its about the sense of support and meaning that being a part of a community brings. If anything this hints at one of the issues of the left and its something I noticed earlier too when you tried to equate civil society with what @Jack V Savage was talking about. Its not about being a part of a formal group like an NGO or union or something like that. Its about a shared sense of community among people with similar customs and norms.

I don't think NGOs or unions can fill the hole that a local church or extended family networks fill. On a societal level those organizations play an important function but I don't think they're as effective at generating the kind of experience that the aforementioned traditional activities do.

I agree, I just don't think the left is anti-community or anti-family or anything. Hell, I wouldn't even call it anti-church even though secularism is a obviously a big pillar of it (I'd say the left is against the church influencing government policy)

I mean, it is true that most people that are really into their church are probably conservative. But it's more of a side effect of the left's secularism than a direct effect.

The family thing is either not related to politics at all or, if anything, a little more progressive, at least in the US. If you were to poll the number of people that rely on their extended family for support, you'd probably find that most of them are some degree of liberal. (Mostly due to race/ethnicity, though. As has been pointed out, minorities tend to be closer to their families. The old stereotype of Latinos and Asians living at home until they're 30 certainly rings true)

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Note that China's per-capita GDP is less than a sixth of the U.S.'s, and it has other countries as an example to follow. It's much easier to catch up than it is to push the frontier. I don't think we'll see China reaching a Western level of success without more democratic institutions.

That's a fair point. However, I think they did a marvelous job compared to other countries that tried to follow a more democratic path, Brazil, South Africa or 1990s Russia when they tried to import the western model. Not that these countries are as democratic as the USA but they're certainly more democratic than China.
It may also be easier to catch up but it's certainly not easy, very few countries have been able to do it, especially considering their very low starting point and huge population.
Only time will tell but I believe by 2050 China will have surpassed the US in every quantitative economic measure while retaining a technocratic authocracy. If I'm alive by then I will bump this thread.