Why the outrage over Gays in Chechnya? I thought West wanted it.

[GhostZ06]

Rusk, are you living in Russia these days?

@Rusk he's invading america soon red dawn style

Crazy ruskies

 

[Rusk]

Damn, that ritual looks pretty cool from that angle, I bet its quite the experience for the participants as well. I actually went to a similar ritual once, though it wasn't as coordinated nor was it held in such a nice venue with such a large group.

Yeah Sufis are more about the spiritual side of Islam, too bad most Islamic scholars that i heard talk shit about Sufism.

I honestly still don't know what that gif means.

Is it like a 'cool yeah alright' kind of accepting nod or what?

It means "not bad"

 

[Islam Imamate]

I honestly still don't know what that gif means.

Is it like a 'cool yeah alright' kind of accepting nod or what?

And I am serious outside of Kosovo which is like +90% Muslim, Albania and Bosnia have slightly above 50% Muslim populations. If they were +80% Muslim or +80% Christian they would be better places since there would be less infighting. The religious differences cause a lot of problems and the people don't have as clear similar identities to my knowledge as Arabs in Lebanon have. At least in Lebanon they are all Arabs not always the case with the Balkans though.

Its means "not bad", or at least that's how I took it.

I'm a big fan of the Ottoman/Turkish history and culture, in fact I think the Middle East would be more stable if that empire survived the two World Wars. Either it would exist in perpetuity and the Arabs would just negotiate for more autonomy, they would revolt completely and organically establish their own state(s), or a mixture of both as some might remain in the empire and others leave. But either way I think that would've been better than the way the European powers handed the Arabs dysfunctional borders and quasi-independence while attempting to retain their hegemony over the region informally.

 

[Rusk]

@Rusk he's invading america soon red dawn style

Crazy ruskies

I must get my Visa first! lol

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yeah Sufis are more about the spiritual side of Islam, too bad most Islamic scholars that i heard talk shit about Sufism.

Well that mystical side is not mutually exclusive with the more conservative one. At the place where I did the ritual they were distributing Salafi literature, the kind that tells you all music is bad and if you listen to it Allah will kill you.

 

[GhostZ06]

I must get my Visa first! lol

so it begins...

 

[Rusk]

Well that mystical side is not mutually exclusive with the more conservative one. At the place where I did the ritual they were distributing Salafi literature, the kind that tells you all music is bad and if you listen to it Allah will kill you.

Well that is not the most disturbing thing one could experience with Salafism.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Well that is not the most disturbing thing one could experience with Salafism.

Lol yeah but I'm a suburban American so unless I find myself in the middle of a terrorist attack most of the Salafi I will encounter will be more quietist and passive guys. I guess that sense they're like Orthodox Jews; highly conservative and insulated as a community and probably not the kind of people you'd like if they'd give you the time of day anyway but generally harmless.

 

[freakyfarley]

Never noticed that and I basically grew up with Chechens, they are very good people, except the young ones some of them should be skinned alive

Not sure which Chechens you grew up with then. Maybe they have a different mentality here but I have never heard anyone claim otherwise.

 

[original doom]

Its a twist to blame russia.

 

[original doom]

Chechens have funny looking heads. How common is inbreeding ?

 

[MicroBrew]

Not even Europeans that have easy access to their pre-Christianity religion go with their pagan religion. Most people just go with atheism or something.

I suppose ; but Euros embraced rationalism long ago . Don't know how much inroad rationalism has had in the Caucaus.

In anycase, it is a bit odd that they (Chechnyans are soo ethnically/culturally nationalistic but they have no problem bowing down to the Arab as god . But I guess then same could be said for a lot of groups.

 

[MicroBrew]

Islam can also be a very racist religion with dislike and contempt for the 'dark races'. Just see my thread on how Saudi clerics speak about how only light skin women exist in heaven. Or here Muhammad's words himself. or just look at how the Gulf states treat subsaharan Africans. Of course with that said at the end of the day Arabs are the 'chosen' people in Islam. Muslim Chechens still get on their knees to pray to an Arab city in an Arab state and worship an Arab as the prophet.

Exactly !

 

[Undying Poster]

Its means "not bad", or at least that's how I took it.

I'm a big fan of the Ottoman/Turkish history and culture, in fact I think the Middle East would be more stable if that empire survived the two World Wars. Either it would exist in perpetuity and the Arabs would just negotiate for more autonomy, they would revolt completely and organically establish their own state(s), or a mixture of both as some might remain in the empire and others leave. But either way I think that would've been better than the way the European powers handed the Arabs dysfunctional borders and quasi-independence while attempting to retain their hegemony over the region informally.

We would help the Ottoman's crumble again if they survived. They were already in a state of decline and they were trying to become more European/secular. With a greater knowledge of Islam, thanks to translations, and a globalized world, they would probably have rebellions. Even if they remained Islamic, groups like ISIS reject the Ottoman Empire, I think because of things they allowed like shrines (idol worship) music and drawings of people.

Plus, they had a huge multi-ethnic and religious population and such populations are difficult to maintain period, but we all know how much Muslims (at least Sunni Muslims) tolerate diversity.

But back to my first point, we would probably help them crumble because we would probably aid people trying to branch off from the Ottoman empire, assuming their agendas don't align with ours.

 

[Islam Imamate]

We would help the Ottoman's crumble again if they survived. They were already in a state of decline and they were trying to become more European/secular. With a greater knowledge of Islam, thanks to translations, and a globalized world, they would probably have rebellions. Even if they remained Islamic, groups like ISIS reject the Ottoman Empire, I think because of things they allowed like shrines (idol worship) and drawings of people.

Plus, they had a huge multi-ethnic and religious population and such populations are difficult to maintain period, but we all know how much Muslims (at least Sunni Muslims) tolerate diversity.

But back to my first point, we would probably help them crumble because we would probably aid people trying to branch off from the Ottoman empire, assuming their agendas don't align with ours.

That's fine and I even mentioned that as the more likely possibility. But what I'm saying is that if the Ottoman Empire, specifically its Middle Eastern lands, were dismantled not by outside imperial powers but by the subjects themselves via organic bottom-up nationalist movements that would've been better because it would've been more likely to produce stable countries.

For instance, I believe that if the Ottoman Empire had survived the two World Wars I think Kurdish nationalism might've succeeded at creating a Kurdistan, or at the very least an autonomous arrangement within the empire. Now the Kurds, a legitimate nation, are split between four countries because the borders were drawn not by the locals but by outside powers with little care as to the demographic realities on the ground.

 

[Undying Poster]

Exactly !

I mean, in that case, I guess we could say Christianity is racist too, Southern White people have said that Black people are from a cursed tribe I think and they have scripture to back it, even if most people don't buy it

I personally trust groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda when it comes to Islam, and all the real hardliner groups reject racism. I mean nobody is refuting them with verses from the Quran or Hadiths. That's why they're able to recruit people, because they have credibility.

 

[Undying Poster]

That's fine and I even mentioned that as the more likely possibility. But what I'm saying is that if the Ottoman Empire, specifically its Middle Eastern lands, were dismantled not by outside imperial powers but by the subjects themselves via organic bottom-up nationalist movements that would've been better because it would've been more likely to produce stable countries.

For instance, I believe that if the Ottoman Empire had survived the two World Wars I think Kurdish nationalism might've succeeded at creating a Kurdistan, or at the very least an autonomous arrangement within the empire. Now the Kurds, a legitimate nation, are split between four countries because the borders were drawn not by the locals but by outside powers with little care as to the demographic realities on the ground.

True, and I would agree in that sense but it's more of a fantasy (so is my post lol) I don't trust the West to not interfere and once that happens, even if the people carve out their own lands, their would probably still be land disputes because it is impossible to satisfy every party in such a mixed and historical region. You know, Islamists saying that X lands historically belonged to them.

 

[Islam Imamate]

True, and I would agree in that sense but it's more of a fantasy (so is my post lol) I don't trust the West to not interfere and once that happens, even if the people carve out their own lands, their would probably still be land disputes because it is impossible to satisfy every party in such a mixed and historical region. You know, Islamists saying that X lands historically belonged to them.

It would definitely still be a messy affair but if outside powers were interfering indirectly I think they would most likely have to back proxies which form on the ground as opposed to trying to create an order in their image. So if a Kurdish uprising happened to benefit the UK for instance and was thus backed by them the outcome might still be preferable because the outside power would be supporting an organic nationalist movement as opposed to attempting to create nation-states from thin air.

 

[Undying Poster]

It would definitely still be a messy affair but if outside powers were interfering indirectly I think they would most likely have to back proxies which form on the ground as opposed to trying to create an order in their image. So if a Kurdish uprising happened to benefit the UK for instance and was thus backed by them the outcome might still be preferable because the outside power would be supporting an organic nationalist movement as opposed to attempting to create nation-states from thin air.

True enough. The amount and severity of conflict would definitely be lower. I was just going after the idea that the Ottoman's would be able to survive to the 21st century.

 

[Feniamin]

FWIW, the older Boston Marathon bomber had his wife wear one. Also, if you look at pictures of Chechen women they seem to frequently be wearing hijabs.

But then again, I suppose it's not traditional for that region and women only started wearing them there since the 70s. So I guess it's not all that surprising that the president might call for them to stop wearing them as some sort of return to their tradition.

https://www.quora.com/When-did-women-in-Chechnya-start-to-wear-the-Arab-style-hijab

News from March: parliament of Chechnya allowed hijabs in schools https://nation-news.ru/254710-vlasti-chechni-razreshili-shkolnicam-nadevat-hidzhab Putin's press secretary said that they doesn't have a united (or common) opinion about hijabs in Russian schools and said that Russia is multiethnic and multiconfessional country https://russian.rt.com/russia/news/373905-peskov-chechnya-hidzhab-kreml