Why can you train BJJ later in life, but not wrestling?

tenktriangles said:
in my personal experience and withy students at my academy, people that try to learn to shoot (just as an example) as adults end up with a slow shitty shot. This is because people with a brilliant shot learned it by, literally, the ten thousand reps method, starting as children.

when i see guys try to shoot (and this happens a lot at tournaments) it's easy to tell who was a wrestler as a kid and who wasn't. i can teach a good sprawl quickly, but a good shot is either there or it isn't. you can learn to counter wrestle, though, which is great.
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I know what you're saying, but there's always exceptions to the rule. I know more than a few people with a good shot (and I'd like to think I myself have a pretty decent shot.) that didn't wrestle as a kid.
 
1) lack of adult competitions and demand result in few/sparse amount of adult wrestling only schools.

2) Huge availability of high school/college wrestling programs and focus on wrestling achievements in high school/college really make a lot of people burn out and never want to wrestle seriously again.


Personally, I've had brief exposure to wrestling as a youngster but really took it seriously only after I started BJJ. I had to seriously go out of my way to find a high school program that would allow me to join in on the practice, and then also make sure that I wasn't interfering (depriving people of partners if there are odd # of wrestlers, etc).

On top of that, the time for practice was between 3 and 6 pm each day, so if you are working a full time job (which I wasn't at the time), it is impossible to get to practice.

Regarding the post above talking about bjj guys sucking at taking shots... I fully agree that most wrestlers approach it with the 10,000 rep method and practicing a little bit during BJJ class is definitely insufficient in terms of getting the movement to a masterful level. The ONLY way really is either joining a school with a wrestling program, private lessons, or finding a high school/college program (which most people who are older really have no time to do ).
 
The real reason is that unlike bjj, wrestling doesnt protect practitioners from losing or facing someone tougher. BJJ has 5 belt levels, 9 weights per belt, and 6 age divisions for adults. Wrestling has 6 weight classes, 1 division. You cant hide from getting beat and you cant hide from people who are tougher than you.

For kids, this isnt a problem. They dont have the egos yet that adults have. They dont react to pressure and the threat of embarrassment the same way adults do. This is why they will go out and compete against everyone, while adults who know they cant train as hard as the best will sit out in wrestling.

In BJJ, this isnt an issue because there are a combined 270 divisions of belt, age, and skill for adults to enter to compete against those who also are old, dont train much, and arent that good. Saves the ego.
 
warmer said:
In college I joined a school wrestling club, having never wrestled before ever. I got murdered non-stop, but loved it, and I regretted never having tried it when I was younger.

I'm now 28, and it seems all but impossible to pick it up and practice again. Meanwhile, there are BJJ schools everywhere.

Why is that? There aren't even personal wrestling trainers out there, but there are hundreds of "boxing trainers" on craigslist. Frankly, due to the scarcity, I'd be creeped out by a personal wrestling trainer if I did see one.

But what gives? I also hear people say it's impossible to become a good wrestler if you start late, even if you could train. Meanwhile, everyone says its never too late to learn BJJ, and even become a black belt at it. You hear about 30 year olds picking it up and becoming extremely proficient at it.

So why is wrestling so unique in that (1) its not available anywhere and (2) even if it was, everyone says you're probably too late?
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Look for an MMA gym with wrestling classes if you're interested and don't want to be creeped out by a one on one.
 
Dirty Holt said:
The real reason is that unlike bjj, wrestling doesnt protect practitioners from losing or facing someone tougher. BJJ has 5 belt levels, 9 weights per belt, and 6 age divisions for adults. Wrestling has 6 weight classes, 1 division. You cant hide from getting beat and you cant hide from people who are tougher than you.

For kids, this isnt a problem. They dont have the egos yet that adults have. They dont react to pressure and the threat of embarrassment the same way adults do. This is why they will go out and compete against everyone, while adults who know they cant train as hard as the best will sit out in wrestling.

In BJJ, this isnt an issue because there are a combined 270 divisions of belt, age, and skill for adults to enter to compete against those who also are old, dont train much, and arent that good. Saves the ego.
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Um, wrestling has pee-wee, middle school, high school, and college. High school has 14 weight classes. College has 10. In college, you have NCWA, NAIA, and NCAA Divisions 1, 2, and 3. There are 50 states in high school, from Pennsylvania to Alabama. In each of those states, there are multiple divisions depending on school size. Virginia has 6, for instance. Now in international wrestling, you have 6 Olympic weights and 8 non-Olympic weight classes. 12 and 16 when you consider both Freestyle and Greco. 6 more when you add in women's freestyle. There is a Veterans World Championship for older competitors.

It's disingenuous to conflate folkstyle and freestyle. If you can do that for wrestling, you might as well consider BJJ and Judo together for gi grappling.

In BJJ, some average Joe can enter an IBJJF event, GQ, or NAGA, and compete against the best in the sport and others. For instance, I remember Phil Davis (NCAA Division 1 Champion) competing at BLUE BELT IBJJF worlds.

There are plenty of ways to save your ego in both sports.
 
Wrestling is much more reliant on physical attributes than Jiu-Jitsu.
 
Einarr said:
Wrestling is much more reliant on physical attributes than Jiu-Jitsu.
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Competitive jiu jitsu relies tremendously on physical attributes, just as much if not more so than wrestling.

When technical levels even out, athletes will rely on strength, conditioning, and physical attributes to make up the difference.

That said, grappling on the feet (Judo, Wrestling, etc) often comes with less control than on the mat (say holding someone in your closed guard) so strength and conditioning can often come into play sooner and more often due to quicker and more frequent movement.
 
Because of stalling rules/round length/pace culture.
 
At one of the MMA gyms I used to go to, we had a wrestling class. The vale tudo classes were 10-50% wrestling
 
I get that stuff, but do you think that wrassling's success in MMA could boost it's popularity among adults in the future?
 
brendan raedy said:
Um, wrestling has pee-wee, middle school, high school, and college. High school has 14 weight classes. College has 10. In college, you have NCWA, NAIA, and NCAA Divisions 1, 2, and 3. There are 50 states in high school, from Pennsylvania to Alabama. In each of those states, there are multiple divisions depending on school size. Virginia has 6, for instance. Now in international wrestling, you have 6 Olympic weights and 8 non-Olympic weight classes. 12 and 16 when you consider both Freestyle and Greco. 6 more when you add in women's freestyle. There is a Veterans World Championship for older competitors.

It's disingenuous to conflate folkstyle and freestyle. If you can do that for wrestling, you might as well consider BJJ and Judo together for gi grappling.

In BJJ, some average Joe can enter an IBJJF event, GQ, or NAGA, and compete against the best in the sport and others. For instance, I remember Phil Davis (NCAA Division 1 Champion) competing at BLUE BELT IBJJF worlds.

There are plenty of ways to save your ego in both sports.
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We are talking about adults, not kids. Is there veterans? Yes, they wrestle a once a year domestic tournament; thats it.

I am comparing adult male wrestling to adult male BJJ. I will concede, you can wrestle either freestyle or greco, so that makes 6 weights, 2 styles. 12 categories. But, you can also compete in gi/nogi jiujitsu. Compare that to IBJJF which has white, blue, purple, brown, black, 9 weight classes, adult division, then masters 1-5, and double it for gi/nogi. Not an exaggeration, that is 540 divisions and weights to compete in compared to 12. Which one is going to be more difficult to deal with in terms of preserving ego? Not sure how you can argue this.
 
Dirty Holt said:
We are talking about adults, not kids. Is there veterans? Yes, they wrestle a once a year domestic tournament; thats it.

I am comparing adult male wrestling to adult male BJJ. I will concede, you can wrestle either freestyle or greco, so that makes 6 weights, 2 styles. 12 categories. Compare that to IBJJF which has white, blue, purple, brown, black, 9 weight classes, adult division, then masters 1-5. Which one is going to be more difficult to deal with in terms of preserving ego? Not sure how you can argue this.
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How many adults post college are actively competing in wrestling in the United States? USAW ranks top 10 per weight class, so 60-80? How much deeper does it go? 200 total?

How many adults post college are actively competing in BJJ in the United States? Thousands.

Of course BJJ is going to have more divisions.

At least in the United States, freestyle wrestlers could accuse Greco wrestlers of "preserving their egos" by competing in that style, since the vast majority of NCAA talent continuing their careers internationally go into freestyle.
 
Dirty Holt said:
The real reason is that unlike bjj, wrestling doesnt protect practitioners from losing or facing someone tougher. BJJ has 5 belt levels, 9 weights per belt, and 6 age divisions for adults. Wrestling has 6 weight classes, 1 division. You cant hide from getting beat and you cant hide from people who are tougher than you.

For kids, this isnt a problem. They dont have the egos yet that adults have. They dont react to pressure and the threat of embarrassment the same way adults do. This is why they will go out and compete against everyone, while adults who know they cant train as hard as the best will sit out in wrestling.

In BJJ, this isnt an issue because there are a combined 270 divisions of belt, age, and skill for adults to enter to compete against those who also are old, dont train much, and arent that good. Saves the ego.
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I don't buy the ego thing. My experience, and the experience of most everyone I know who has trained BJJ, is that their first few months was just them being smashed. If you wrestle, you might be brought up alongside better caliber athletes, but I don't know that it's common to be paired up with a guy who knows 100x more than you and can tie you in a knot on a whim, nearly exclusively for your first few months. I mean, sure, you get paired up with other white belts and then you have a chance, but I've found in most schools that they generally don't want to see you tussling around with other morons early--exchanging bad habits, but want you to have a "survival apprenticeship" first where you learn where you shouldn't stick your limbs and neck against someone who knows what they are doing. In a school that hasn't established itself yet, and has a high colored belt to white belt ratio, you might be the whipping boy for years.

For the sheer fact that you often go your first few months without submitting or dominating jack shit, even if you are a good athlete, I don't think its so soft on the ego.
 
Te Huna Matata said:
LOL, that's so cute that you think so.

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