Who's the 3rd GOAT behind Jordan and LeBron?

[gspieler]

Try like 2005

'05 Lebron isn't noticeably better than Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk.

 

[CodeBreaker]

LeRoids hasn't even cracked the top 10 SFs yet ROFL.

Helps to actually watch the game before making proclamations like the one in the OP.

 

[Bamboozled]

'05 Lebron isn't noticeably better than Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk.

Oh but he is. None of those guys were as complete as LeBron and it was LeBron's second year. Kobe was a better scorer, Dirk was a better shooter, Wade was better at getting bullshit calls. Duncan is the GOAT Power forward and he had GINOBLI and Parker.

I'm a huge Kobe fan too. Kobe's title win was almost as impressive as LeBron beating the Warriors.

The one thing I think all of those players actually have over LeBron though is their free throw shooting. LeBron is incredibly average for an NBA player in that aspect. LeBron had to work on his jumper when he came into the league. He had everything else though which is INSANE.

 

[prod2821]

Oh but he is. None of those guys were as complete as LeBron and it was LeBron's second year. Kobe was a better scorer, Dirk was a better shooter, Wade was better at getting bullshit calls. Duncan is the GOAT Power forward and he had GINOBLI and Parker.

I'm a huge Kobe fan too. Kobe's title win was almost as impressive as LeBron beating the Warriors.

The one thing I think all of those players actually have over LeBron though is their free throw shooting. LeBron is incredibly average for an NBA player in that aspect. LeBron had to work on his jumper when he came into the league. He had everything else though which is INSANE.

All except Tim, his free throw shooting was crap here and there

oh and Tim is #1, LeBron #3, no bias here

 

[gspieler]

Oh but he is. None of those guys were as complete as LeBron and it was LeBron's second year. Kobe was a better scorer, Dirk was a better shooter, Wade was better at getting bullshit calls. Duncan is the GOAT Power forward and he had GINOBLI and Parker.

I'm a huge Kobe fan too. Kobe's title win was almost as impressive as LeBron beating the Warriors.

The one thing I think all of those players actually have over LeBron though is their free throw shooting. LeBron is incredibly average for an NBA player in that aspect. LeBron had to work on his jumper when he came into the league. He had everything else though which is INSANE.

At the time, Kobe was the best scorer in the league, and the best backcourt defender, and had ample big game experience.

Duncan was the real MVP during time, but doesn't ge the cred, because he's not flashy, and never averaged 30ppg. He was the best defender in the league, one of the best rebounders, the most well-rounded big man in the game offensively, and maybe the smartest player.

Garnett was Garnett. He was 25/15 guy. Stellar defense/rebounding. Well-rounded offensive threat. If you want to argue 20yr old Lebron was better than that, so be it. I'd call it a wash.

Lebron probably slightly edges out Dirk and Wade from this era, but still isn't noticeably better IMO.

You could probably also make cases for AI, Shaq, and Nash.

 

[HomeCheese]

Jordan is certainly better than LeBron. Jordan played in a different era when players were allowed to hand check which made it much harder to score, especially for a guard. The league was much more physical back then which made it even more difficult. Larry Bird said it best: "If god could play basketball he would play like Michael Jordan."

I think Bill Russel is probably top three GOAT and he has the rings to prove it.

 

[Prefect]

Jordan is certainly better than LeBron. Jordan played in a different era when players were allowed to hand check which made it much harder to score, especially for a guard. The league was much more physical back then which made it even more difficult. Larry Bird said it best: "If god could play basketball he would play like Michael Jordan."

I think Bill Russel is probably top three GOAT and he has the rings to prove it.

I don't by the harder to score bullshit. Zone defenses are harder to deal with than handchecking. ISO isn't as effective anymore. Shooters are better and 3pt shooting has never been this good. 3pt shooting opened up the game by spreading the defense. Post work is on the decline just because it isn't in demand. Scorers now are better and more well rounded than ever. Bird won't win a 3pt contest nowdays.

 

[Corona]

it's irrelevant that he was joining a shitty team with a #1 pick that wasn't expected be a great #1? again he could have gone almost anywhere and had help. because he's lebron. as he's showing now.

Lmao LeRoid could probably take the current trash lakers to the wcf. Would be hilarious to hear anyone say he went to a stacked team. “They had Lonzo, randle and Ingram!”

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

I don't by the harder to score bullshit. Zone defenses are harder to deal with than handchecking. ISO isn't as effective anymore. Shooters are better and 3pt shooting has never been this good. 3pt shooting opened up the game by spreading the defense. Post work is on the decline just because it isn't in demand. Scorers now are better and more well rounded than ever. Bird won't win a 3pt contest nowdays.

I was with you until that last line. Bird wouldn't be the best 3 pt shooter in the game because he's not quick enough or good enough coming off the dribble for that shot, but that man was magical with the ball when he locked in. He would be fully capable of winning a modern 3 pt contest.

 

[gspieler]

I don't by the harder to score bullshit. Zone defenses are harder to deal with than handchecking. ISO isn't as effective anymore. Shooters are better and 3pt shooting has never been this good. 3pt shooting opened up the game by spreading the defense. Post work is on the decline just because it isn't in demand. Scorers now are better and more well rounded than ever. Bird won't win a 3pt contest nowdays.

It's easier to shoot trays without handchecking. As for interior defense, there simply aren't as many dominant enforcers either. 15+ years ago, the league was littered with guys like Oakley, Rodman, Motumbo, Alonzo, H Grant, Camby, Ewing, Shaq, Wallace, etc. Who are their counterparts of the last decade? I'd that (in general) scoring is easier today for a number of reasons...rule changes, faster tempo, the game being more Gaurd-centric, etc.

As for Bird, he was a pioneer of the 3-ball. It's something he picked up as an adult, and successfully implemented into his game. Had he been fostered in the same environment as Steph et al, he would likely be one of the best, if not the best.

 

[gspieler]

Lmao LeRoid could probably take the current trash lakers to the wcf. Would be hilarious to hear anyone say he went to a stacked team. “They had Lonzo, randle and Ingram!”

Nobody would be saying Lebron went to a stacked team IMO, barring personnel change.

 

[faustian]

Oh but he is. None of those guys were as complete as LeBron and it was LeBron's second year. Kobe was a better scorer, Dirk was a better shooter, Wade was better at getting bullshit calls. Duncan is the GOAT Power forward and he had GINOBLI and Parker.

I'm a huge Kobe fan too. Kobe's title win was almost as impressive as LeBron beating the Warriors.

The one thing I think all of those players actually have over LeBron though is their free throw shooting. LeBron is incredibly average for an NBA player in that aspect. LeBron had to work on his jumper when he came into the league. He had everything else though which is INSANE.

Wad was the best basketballer on the planet in 2006

 

[gspieler]

I was with you until that last line. Bird wouldn't be the best 3 pt shooter in the game because he's not quick enough or good enough coming off the dribble for that shot, but that man was magical with the ball when he locked in. He would be fully capable of winning a modern 3 pt contest.

Yeah, Bird was in his 20's when the 3-ball even became a thing. And even in the early years, it was largely thought of as a gimmick. It wasn't really until a decade later that you started seeing 3-ball specialists, if my history is correct.

 

[gspieler]

Wad was the best basketballer on the planet in 2006

It's hard to argue against that Finals performance.

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

Wad was the best basketballer on the planet in 2006

Now that Wad's career is pretty much over, at least the highly productive parts, where do you have him all-time at SG?

 

[faustian]

Now that Wad's career is pretty much over, at least the highly productive parts, where do you have him all-time at SG?

Peak: 2
Career: 3

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

Peak: 2
Career: 3

So you rank Clyde at SF then? Or is Wad above him?

I think I'd have Wad 2 peak and 4 career, but that FMVP was God tier.

 

[faustian]

So you rank Clyde at SF then? Or is Wad above him?

I've got Wad above him, the gap is narrower for career tho

Peak
1 - Jordan
2 - Wad
3 - Kooby
4 - Drexler
5 - Miller

Career
1 - Jordan
2 - Kooby
3 - Wad
4 - Drexler
5 - Miller

You could even put Wad at 3a and Drexler at 3b for career

 

[Corona]

So you rank Clyde at SF then? Or is Wad above him?

I think I'd have Wad 2 peak and 4 career, but that FMVP was God tier.

Wad sits firmly at #3 behind Mark Jord

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

I've got Wad above him, the gap is narrower for career tho

Peak
1 - Jordan
2 - Wad
3 - Kooby
4 - Drexler
5 - Miller

Career
1 - Jordan
2 - Kooby
3 - Wad
4 - Drexler
5 - Miller

You could even put Wad at 3a and Drexler at 3b for career

Yeah I edited my post to say I think I'd favor Drexler for career based on longevity. FMVP hard to argue, but at least Drexler got a ring.

I'm always torn on what to do with Jerry West in this argument. Most places like to call him a PG, but he was really a ball dominant SG. And while he plays in a weak era, I think he at least eclipses Miller on the list if he's a SG.