Update: "Teachers' Spring Continues" - Add AZ to the List with NC to Follow?

[Gregolian]

Lol. Very true, but how is this teachers' fault?

You are citing lack of competition for teaching jobs as the reason an administrator might be unwilling to fire a poor teacher.

OK...

...If you want to attract more/better candidates to ANY job in ANY field, what is the solution?

I'd argue in teaching, especially in shitty areas.... make smaller class sizes which means you have less students per teacher will make it easier for some of the teachers to handl the kids but that'll cost money that a lot of these places sadly don't have.

Ok so there are two assertions you made so far:

1. Inner cities will have lower turnover rates because there aren't as many people available to hire.

2. Shit tier teachers have a bigger impact on society than shit tier firefighters or attorneys.

I find no connection between the two. It seems to me @luckyshot just fact-checked you and you're having trouble conceding.

Nope, there isn't shit to concede cause I'm not making some grand "I win" sorta shit, I'm having a discussion.

 

[MiniCraque]

> You made a blanket statement (Bad teachers can't be fired)
> I provided statistics to show that it is false (Every year 2.1% of all teachers are fired for poor performance)
> You accuse me of a "strawman" argument

Lol.

Stay golden, pony boy.


You realize that 2.1% of 200 is exactly the same sized "drop in the bucket" as 2.1% of 2 million... right...?

That's what percentage is...

Side note: the total separations rate for the US labor market was 3.6% in December 2017. That's across all jobs, and for all possible reasons (layoffs, poor performance firings, people quitting...).

Sauce: BLS.

But let's furiously circlejerk about teachers not ever being fired with no facts at our disposal instead.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

the Federal Gov already gives Teach Grants (4500/year) for those willing to sign up for 4+ years of teaching in low income areas in high need fields

i'm not sure what else is going to be done (Federally, at least) to try and combat this type of thing

Quite frankly, I don't think Education should be a Reserved Power, but rather an Enumerated one. Or at least apply some form of national baseline standard (student to teacher size, quality of books/materials) through the expenditure of Federal Block Grants. It's pretty clear local/state/property tax funding is NOT working for too much of the US. It also appears that having local/county/school district control over the funds leads to excessive administrative costs that could be better spent elsewhere (teachers salaries, for example)

 

[Gregolian]

I get why like the SAT and ACT exist but the other standardized tests that kids get bombared with starting in like 2nd grade have got to go IMO.

I grew up in WA and I felt like every other year I wasn't learning shit cause teachers were teaching for the fucking test.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I get why like the SAT and ACT exist but the other standardized tests that kids get bombared with starting in like 2nd grade have got to go IMO.

I grew up in WA and I felt like every other year I wasn't learning shit cause teachers were teaching for the fucking test.

true, but what if you move around a lot like I did being a military dependent......10 schools from k-12

Many states, back then, used the CTBS test so at least they'd have a general idea of your level upon entering even if you took the test somewhere else
Conversely, I think most states use the Praxis exam to certify teachers knowledge of a single or multisubject

 

[Gregolian]

true, but what if you move around a lot like I did being a military dependent......10 schools from k-12

Many states, back then, used the CTBS test so at least they'd have a general idea of your level upon entering even if you took the test somewhere else
Conversely, I think most states use the Praxis exam to certify teachers knowledge of a single or multisubject

I feel like if we're doing standardized tests they need to do it closer to what you see in England and Japan. Kids taking it at the beginning of like 4th to 5th grade (in Japan I think) and that sets them up for which "track" they're on for the rest of school.

Not necessarily in the "you can't go to college" way that England CAN be but more "hey, these kids are lacking in math" so you have teachers specifically catered to that deficiency.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I feel like if we're doing standardized tests they need to do it closer to what you see in England and Japan. Kids taking it at the beginning of like 4th to 5th grade (in Japan I think) and that sets them up for which "track" they're on for the rest of school.

Not necessarily in the "you can't go to college" way that England CAN be but more "hey, these kids are lacking in math" so you have teachers specifically catered to that deficiency.

i'm all for the UK/Germany type system

including 'no you can't go to college' and 'yes, try this trade school please'

perhaps one the biggest problems w/ US higher education is the NEED to pursue higher education while simultaneously looking down at trades/vocations as a society, i'm guilty of this myself going back to HS

 

[MiniCraque]

I'd argue in teaching, especially in shitty areas.... make smaller class sizes which means you have less students per teacher will make it easier for some of the teachers to handl the kids but that'll cost money that a lot of these places sadly don't have.


Nope, there isn't shit to concede cause I'm not making some grand "I win" sorta shit, I'm having a discussion.

What you're doing is called "moving the goalposts", incoherentness set aside.

All you've done so far is claiming 2.1% is too low of a turnover rate for teachers specifically tied to performance issues (without further explaining what would be the appropriate rate and how it compares to other jobs) and going on some weird tangent about inner cities that barely connects to either your original point or what was being previously discussed.

 

[Gregolian]

What you're doing is called "moving the goalposts", incoherentness set aside.

All you've done so far is claiming 2.1% is too low of a turnover rate for teachers specifically tied to performance issues (without further explaining what would be the appropriate rate and how it compares to other jobs) and going on some weird tangent about inner cities that barely connects to either your original point or what was being previously discussed.

You've heard of discussions evolving and having a flow no? Jesus dude, funny how LuckyShot isn't the one bitching about this but some third party twat is.

 

[MiniCraque]

the Federal Gov already gives Teach Grants (4500/year) for those willing to sign up for 4+ years of teaching in low income areas in high need fields

i'm not sure what else is going to be done (Federally, at least) to try and combat this type of thing

Quite frankly, I don't think Education should be a Reserved Power, but rather an Enumerated one. Or at least apply some form of national baseline standard (student to teacher size, quality of books/materials) through the expenditure of Federal Block Grants. It's pretty clear local/state/property tax funding is NOT working for too much of the US. It also appears that having local/county/school district control over the funds leads to excessive administrative costs that could be better spent elsewhere (teachers salaries, for example)

It would be impossible to amend the Constitution to include that sort of thing without millions of states rights advocates freaking out and screaming tiranny.

Sadly there's not solid solution at the federal level aside from throwing more money at it and providing oversight so that said money is well spent.

Outside of that shit states will always have the freedom to provide shit education.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

It would be impossible to amend the Constitution to include that sort of thing without millions of states rights advocates freaking out and screaming tiranny.

Sadly there's not solid solution at the federal level aside from throwing more money at it and providing oversight so that said money is well spent.

Outside of that shit states will always have the freedom to provide shit education.

no doubt, I was just fantasizing

it also appears that much of the Federal block grants already used for education are tied to other things as well (raising speed limit gets highway funds etc....), so who knows if say a state supporting Sanctuary Cities can ultimately effect Federal funding for things like education as well

 

[MiniCraque]

You've heard of discussions evolving and having a flow no? Jesus dude, funny how LuckyShot isn't the one bitching about this but some third party twat is.

Sure, that usually happens when any given point is either abandoned ("we agree to disagree") or agreed upon. No such thing has happened.

Furthermore, your initial quote was meant to contest an assertion, something you've seemingly given up on doing because further explanation was required.

You seem to be frustrated by me calling you out (so to speak), but you have yet to really make any coherent point. So let's go back to what originated this: 2.1% of all teachers get fired each year for poor performance. Is that too low of a number? Why? What would be high enough for you to think teachers performance is assessed at an appropriate level?

 

[Gregolian]

Sure, that usually happens when any given point is either abandoned ("we agree to disagree") or agreed upon. No such thing has happened.

Furthermore, your initial quote was meant to contest an assertion, something you've seemingly given up on doing because further explanation was required.

You seem to be frustrated by me calling you out (so to speak), but you have yet to really make any coherent point. So let's go back to what originated this: 2.1% of all teachers get fired each year for poor performance. Is that too low of a number? Why? What would be high enough for you to think teachers performance is assessed at an appropriate level?

If we have say 1 million teachers you mean to tell me only like 21,000 are not up to snuff? Given how shitty Americans do compared to the rest of the world that seems... too low.

As to what number it SHOULD be at I have no fucking idea.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

If we have say 1 million teachers you mean to tell me only like 21,000 are not up to snuff? Given how shitty Americans do compared to the rest of the world that seems... too low.

As to what number it SHOULD be at I have no fucking idea.

have no view on yalls debate, just an FYI
as of 2016, the US had 1.018M HS teachers
1.56M K-6 teachers
630k Middle/Junior High teachers
439k for Special Ed at all levels
source: BLS.gov/OOH for teachers
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm

 

[Gregolian]

have no view on yalls debate, just an FYI
as of 2016, the US had 1.018M HS teachers
1.56M K-6 teachers
630k Middle/Junior High teachers
439k for Special Ed at all levels
source: BLS.gov/OOH for teachers
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm

I pulled the 1 million number out of my ass just for the sake of having a number to use to discuss shit.

 

[superpunch]

I'm skeptical that more funding and money thrown into the system will make any difference at all.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I pulled the 1 million number out of my ass just for the sake of having a number to use to discuss shit.

I was just curious myself as the numbers so I figured i'd link them

some interesting stuff, for example: NY state has 21340 elementary Special Ed teachers (15.8k of which are in the NYC metro area, cotdamn), while the more populous Cali has the second most at 16740

 

[Gregolian]

Do teachers and funding really matter in educational outcomes much, though?

My school was a top performing one and you could have cut its funding in half and not given us any teachers, and I'm positive that we would have still outperformed all these schools that are supposedly underfunded.

I learned because my parents made sure that I learned. They forced me to read textbooks and do my homework every night and looked at my report cards. Teachers and funding had nothing to do with that.

I'm skeptical that more funding and money thrown into the system will make any difference at all.

I mean, every student now has all human knowledge/ literature/ scientific journal/ contact with industry leaders and intellectuals/ universal translation from all of human history for free and instantaneously. That would have been out of the reach of Harvard ~20 years ago and now all public schools have it.. I don't buy the materials/ funding arguments.

Not everyone is like you or me with a supportive home life that will ride your ass to actually perform in school.

 

[superpunch]

Not everyone is like you or me with a supportive home life that will ride your ass to actually perform in school.

Even the worst funded schools in the country have vastly more academic resources than the best funded schools on the planet did 20 years ago Want to know something? It's on google -- all of it, all human knowledge, literature, and academic journal from human history, and free instant universal translation of every human language.

 

[MiniCraque]

If we have say 1 million teachers you mean to tell me only like 21,000 are not up to snuff? Given how shitty Americans do compared to the rest of the world that seems... too low.

As to what number it SHOULD be at I have no fucking idea.

Ok, so now we're getting somewhere. You seem to think 2.1% is too low in part because education in the US is inferior to other comparable countries. Two problems with that:

1. We'd have to assess that turnover rates in other countries are higher (neither of us could be bothered to come up with that sort of data but I'm willing to bet it's not any higher abroad).
2. Higher turnover rates would have a measureble effect on the quality of education.

Since I'm pretty sure there aren't many people arguing that, for education to be better, we should be firing more teachers, you'd have to be a litte more detailed since there's nobody to borrow points from.