Turkey, the Kurds, and Syria(Kurds Reach Afrin Deal with Syrian Government Forces)

[AnGrYcRoW]

Not a fan of the Turks or Erdogan in the Syria conflict.....
But this does make sense for them doesnt it

That's an interesting question one I think only time will answer

 

[Fronk]

Not a fan of the Turks or Erdogan in the Syria conflict.....
But this does make sense for them doesnt it

It does.

I mean Kurds already have a quasi-state in Iraq and you don't see Turkey itching to invade there do you? Infact the KRG is somewhat of an ally to Turkey.

It's not about just Kurds here, it's the fact that an organisation with clear ties to the PKK, an enemy they have fought for decades, are training and organizing themselves just across the border. How can they accept this? They can't. Whatever you think about the Kurdish freedom struggle there is the fact that PKK have often resorted to targeting Turkish civilians and civil servants. The vast vast majority of Turkish people absolutely hate the PKK and now you have them being armed and trained by their ally. An ally who just declared that they basically intended to stay for decades and were organising a "border force" made up of 30k armed militants, "forgetting" that they belong to a group that Turkey is in an ongoing conflict with. Do you see the absurdity? Whatever you think about Erdogan, I personally despise him, you can't help but see a sliver of just cause here.

There are so many Kurdish groups around, PYD/PJAK/PKK/YPG/KCK and the list goes on, but what binds many of them together is their cult-like devotion to Abdullah Öcalan and there is no doubt that the Syrian YPG is an Apoist organisation. No rebranding, into SDF or something else, will change this fact and it makes them a Turkish enemy.

Another endless American "war for peace" is probably on the horizon. The mission have moved on from ISIS and are now again directed towards Iran and the Syrian goverment. In fact having ISIS around is now helpful, after being reasonably contained, because it gives legitimacy to US occupation of north east Syria. It's obvious that Israeli and Saudi concerns have priority over Turkish ones. That is because to fight Iranian influence, something Saudis and Israelis clamor for, you need local allies and there is no doubt that the YPG has been the only successful ally to the US. It's not like the US didn't try to train rag-tag Islamists in the Jordanian desert. They did and shipped them back to Syria under different names but these groups disintegrated quickly. They were artifical. You can't just rely on money, there needs to be something more tangible behind the motivation to fight and the YPG brings that. What they dream about is Kurdish autonomy under Apoist ideology along the border, something Turkey can never accept.

It will be interesting to see how this play out and how the US will juggle Israeli, Saudi and Turkish concerns to keep their Syria project afloat.

 

[Supereem]

well, maybe? so you're surprised by their reaction? you basically confirmed it. the kurds want a state, they are being treated like shit.
if theres an easy solution, please elaborate. tough talk doesn't help alot. turkey is not just another state in the game, it's a huge military power.

Turkey is not stable and is almost universally hated, why provoke their potential destruction?

 

[HomerThompson]

Turkey is not stable and is almost universally hated, why provoke their potential destruction?

Because Erdogan is an authoritarian cunt, and he's overstepping his bounds.

They're clearly trying to slice territory out of Syria, while eliminating as many Kurds as they can at the same time. Also, I believe they have started talking about pushing into Iraq as well.

Just look at the map and who controls what territory.

 

[The Diplomat]

Because Erdogan is an authoritarian cunt, and he's overstepping his bounds.

They're clearly trying to slice territory out of Syria, while eliminating as many Kurds as they can at the same time. Also, I believe they have started talking about pushing into Iraq as well.

Just look at the map and who controls what territory.

They still haven't admitted and apologized for the genocide of the Armenian people.

Even Germany said "ok, my bad."

 

[Squish II]

I don't understand why we care about Turkey so much. Erdogan can go fuck himself with a 10 foot pole. He has refused to help out with the migrant crisis and with every passing year attempts to Islamize his country further and further while simultaneously trying to get into the EU. We should have come down hard on Turkey years ago and stop letting them get away with this shit. Embargos, sanctions, and a soft-threat of military force.

This is one area where I would like to see Trump use some of his bone-headed bravado and come down hard on a country.

1. Accept ME migrants. You're a regional power. This crisis is in your back yard. It is your responsibility to help.
2. Stop attacking the Kurds. Now.
3. Stop pushing theocracy on your secular nation.

Do 1, 2, and 3 as quickly as is feasible or sanctions and hardships await your country.

Erdogan is a nut but Turkey is an always will remain an important ally against Russia, they might look buddy buddy at times but Russia is a threat to them while NATO helps keep the surrounding European countries stable, which security wise is good for Turkey. Regarding the Migrant crisis remember that Turkey takes in more Syrian refugees than any other country in the world. In areas that Turkish forces occupy in Syria they build up the infrastructure and attempt to form civilian governments (which some hardline rebel groups sometimes go against). Not to say that Afrin doesn't house refugees as well but Turkey also wants to occupy parts of Syria partly to resettle refugees. This map is outdated but Turkey and Lebanon are still the top two with Turkey hosting 3 million and Lebanon with 2 million.

Part of the reason that Turkey attacking Afrin is tolerated is due to the previously mentioned ties between the YPG and the PKK, so Turkey does not want a hostile terrorist group in control of the Syrian border. Yes the YPG are one of the better factions in the war but it doesn't stop them from supporting the PKK. The best outcome would have been for the YPG/SDF to abandon Afrin and move to Rojava through Syrian Government territory but the Kurds are too headstrong that they choose the riskier option of fighting instead of giving up for now and hoping for a better opportunity.

The US can tolerate these religious governments even if they dislike them as long as they can work together towards their goals. Just look at their alliances all over the middle east.

 

[Squish II]

It does.

I mean Kurds already have a quasi-state in Iraq and you don't see Turkey itching to invade there do you? Infact the KRG is somewhat of an ally to Turkey.

It's not about just Kurds here, it's the fact that an organisation with clear ties to the PKK, an enemy they have fought for decades, are training and organizing themselves just across the border. How can they accept this? They can't. Whatever you think about the Kurdish freedom struggle there is the fact that PKK have often resorted to targeting Turkish civilians and civil servants. The vast vast majority of Turkish people absolutely hate the PKK and now you have them being armed and trained by their ally. An ally who just declared that they basically intended to stay for decades and were organising a "border force" made up of 30k armed militants, "forgetting" that they belong to a group that Turkey is in an ongoing conflict with. Do you see the absurdity? Whatever you think about Erdogan, I personally despise him, you can't help but see a sliver of just cause here.

There are so many Kurdish groups around, PYD/PJAK/PKK/YPG/KCK and the list goes on, but what binds many of them together is their cult-like devotion to Abdullah Öcalan and there is no doubt that the Syrian YPG is an Apoist organisation. No rebranding, into SDF or something else, will change this fact and it makes them a Turkish enemy.

Another endless American "war for peace" is probably on the horizon. The mission have moved on from ISIS and are now again directed towards Iran and the Syrian goverment. In fact having ISIS around is now helpful, after being reasonably contained, because it gives legitimacy to US occupation of north east Syria. It's obvious that Israeli and Saudi concerns have priority over Turkish ones. That is because to fight Iranian influence, something Saudis and Israelis clamor for, you need local allies and there is no doubt that the YPG has been the only successful ally to the US. It's not like the US didn't try to train rag-tag Islamists in the Jordanian desert. They did and shipped them back to Syria under different names but these groups disintegrated quickly. They were artifical. You can't just rely on money, there needs to be something more tangible behind the motivation to fight and the YPG brings that. What they dream about is Kurdish autonomy under Apoist ideology along the border, something Turkey can never accept.

It will be interesting to see how this play out and how the US will juggle Israeli, Saudi and Turkish concerns to keep their Syria project afloat.

Finally someone that acknowledges the ties between PKK/YPG and their attacks on civilians. The KRG and Turkey were close allies. They were landlocked and Turkey was the only country that gave them access to international markets to sell their oil. They made billions of dollars together. KRG even blockaded YPG in Syria and refused to trade with them. Last I heard the relationship fell apart when Barzani or whoever it was tried the Kurdish referendum vote which basically the entire world told them not to do.

Kurds everywhere seem to have Öcalan pictures. Its so creepy. What is up with that part of the world and their cult of personality. Erdogan, Gulen, Öcalan etc.

Because Erdogan is an authoritarian cunt, and he's overstepping his bounds.

They're clearly trying to slice territory out of Syria, while eliminating as many Kurds as they can at the same time. Also, I believe they have started talking about pushing into Iraq as well.

Just look at the map and who controls what territory.

The US is doing the same thing, setting up military bases in Rojava with no intention of leaving anytime soon. It will use ISIS and Iran as an excuse long after they are gone while the threat of Kurdish terrorism will continue in the near and distant future for turkey and having the YPG on their border will only exacerbate the problem. Turkey doesn't just kill as many Kurds as they can, if they are captured they are sent to Turkey and put on trial. However bullshit their courts may be these days its better than dying. Turkey has no intention of pushing into Iraq, that is just Erdogan saying ridiculous things and pandering to his base. The extent of Turkeys incursions into Iraq so far have been airstrikes on the PKK there.

See the green on the bottom of the map at the Iraqi and Syrian border? That's where US troops and Rebels are. if any Syrian forces come within 50 meters of the their base there they get bombed. How long is the US going to occupy that area? They already occupy the entire area north of the Euphrates. The amount of territory that Turkey is going to end up occupying is nothing compared to the US.

 

[Stoic1]

I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with Kurds to Make Constantinople Great Again.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I don't understand why we care about Turkey so much. Erdogan can go fuck himself with a 10 foot pole. He has refused to help out with the migrant crisis and with every passing year attempts to Islamize his country further and further while simultaneously trying to get into the EU. We should have come down hard on Turkey years ago and stop letting them get away with this shit. Embargos, sanctions, and a soft-threat of military force.

This is one area where I would like to see Trump use some of his bone-headed bravado and come down hard on a country.

1. Accept ME migrants. You're a regional power. This crisis is in your back yard. It is your responsibility to help.
2. Stop attacking the Kurds. Now.
3. Stop pushing theocracy on your secular nation.

Do 1, 2, and 3 as quickly as is feasible or sanctions and hardships await your country.

Wtf are you talking about? Turkey has more Syrian refugees than any other nation on earth. Looks like you're talking out of your ass again.

Its pretty fucking bold to blame the Turks for this mess. The US supports a group with a history of terrorist attacks in Turkey as it controls the Iraqi border to Turkey and the Turks are the bad guys here? How does that make any sense? Erdogan definitely has a bad track record but that is mainly due to his post-coup crackdown and referendum, the way the Turks have acted in Syria and Iraq is pretty rational given their history with the Kurds. I'd like to see a Kurdistan as much as the next guy but to pretend like the Turks don't have any legit concerns with the Kurds is retarded.

 

[Der Eisbär]

Wtf are you talking about? Turkey has more Syrian refugees than any other nation on earth. Looks like you're talking out of your ass again.

Its pretty fucking bold to blame the Turks for this mess. The US supports a group with a history of terrorist attacks in Turkey as it controls the Iraqi border to Turkey and the Turks are the bad guys here? How does that make any sense? Erdogan definitely has a bad track record but that is mainly due to his post-coup crackdown and referendum, the way the Turks have acted in Syria and Iraq is pretty rational given their history with the Kurds. I'd like to see a Kurdistan as much as the next guy but to pretend like the Turks don't have any legit concerns with the Kurds is retarded.

At which point did I blame Turkey for the Syrian crisis? I wasn't aware turkey was taking refugees. Last I had heard, they were refusing.
What "legit" concerns with the Kurds are there?

 

[Islam Imamate]

At which point did I blame Turkey for the Syrian crisis? I wasn't aware turkey was taking refugees. Last I had heard, they were refusing.

Then you haven't been paying attention, They've always been the nation with the highest number of refugees

What "legit" concerns with the Kurds are there?

Terrorism. That you don't know this shouldn't surprise me at this point and yet...

 

[Prefect]

Why do I have to give a shit about this region?

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Wtf are you talking about? Turkey has more Syrian refugees than any other nation on earth. Looks like you're talking out of your ass again.

Its pretty fucking bold to blame the Turks for this mess. The US supports a group with a history of terrorist attacks in Turkey as it controls the Iraqi border to Turkey and the Turks are the bad guys here? How does that make any sense? Erdogan definitely has a bad track record but that is mainly due to his post-coup crackdown and referendum, the way the Turks have acted in Syria and Iraq is pretty rational given their history with the Kurds. I'd like to see a Kurdistan as much as the next guy but to pretend like the Turks don't have any legit concerns with the Kurds is retarded.

The Turks are the bad guys too because they allowed and encouraged terrorists to cross into Syria/Rojava.
If he wasn't helping his terrorist friends to kill his terrorist enemies the US wouldn't be there arming the YPG.
Turkey had every possible opportunity to act against ISIS and AQ in the area but they didn't, now they're mad it's in chaos controlled by terrorist communists.
Turkey should have supported Assad as a shitty but stable leader IMO.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The Turks are the bad guys too because they allowed and encouraged terrorists to cross into Syria/Rojava.
If he wasn't helping his terrorist friends to kill his terrorist enemies the US wouldn't be there arming the YPG.
Turkey had every possible opportunity to act against ISIS and AQ in the area but they didn't, now they're mad it's in chaos controlled by terrorist communists.
Turkey should have supported Assad as a shitty but stable leader IMO.

I agree they messed up there but the US also supported "moderate" rebels in Syria.

Why do I have to give a shit about this region?

You don't, no one is forcing you to post ITT.

 

[Trotsky]

@mcveteran81 briefly (as is possible), what's your normative opinion on this?

 

[POWER2]

That sounds ideal, but that would fuck over the kurds HARD. They were probably our most reliable ally against ISIS. It would be pretty messed up if we left them hanging.

Honestly, I don't give a fuck about the Kurds. All I need to know, is if we help, how much that barrel of oil hitting for? If it doesn't affect oil prices, let them have cake.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

HOw the Kurds piss off the Turks so badly, the Turks are risking USA involvement against them?

 

[GhostZ06]

time to get the nukes out

 

[tramendous]

HOw the Kurds piss off the Turks so badly, the Turks are risking USA involvement against them?

The USA wont do much against them. The US turned their back on the Kurds numerous times dating all the way back to the saddam era. Turkey wants to get rid of Assad, is a Sunni nation which pits them against Iran, and is US ally. Theyre far more valuable to the US then Kurds.

 

[Prefect]

I agree they messed up there but the US also supported "moderate" rebels in Syria.

You don't, no one is forcing you to post ITT.

It was meant more as a comment to question our involvement in the region