Traditional Karate guard vs Boxing guard

Hotora86 said:
As always, it all comes down to the practitioner, not the art (or stance or guard). In MMA people have fought with all kinds of "unorthodox" stances and low guards (Machida, Wonderboy etc.) and have had success using them.

As @fluffball mentioned above, the way you move your whole body (footwork, dodging, leaning, pivots etc.) is way more important than your guard.

Also remember that stances and guards are fluid concepts, they change every time you move or strike so don't get overly attached to them.

Many people (including myself) draw comparisons between fighting and chess. Note that in chess you don't strive to build and maintain a certain pawn structure for the entire game - instead you learn general principles and tactics of correct placement of pawns and pieces and constantly react to what the opponent is doing. Fighting is very similar.
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Stance and guard are distinct. Stances are fluid, guards tend to be more fixed, until the later rounds.
 
Hotora86 said:
As always, it all comes down to the practitioner, not the art (or stance or guard). In MMA people have fought with all kinds of "unorthodox" stances and low guards (Machida, Wonderboy etc.) and have had success using them.
.
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They haven't fought any world class strikers. Put them in a Muay Thai ring against legit guys and then you will see Karate fail miserably. For cryin out loud, a prime Machida couldn't even get past Shogun!! A Muay Thai hobbyist![
 
spacetime said:
They haven't fought any world class strikers. Put them in a Muay Thai ring against legit guys and then you will see Karate fail miserably. For cryin out loud, a prime Machida couldn't even get past Shogun!! A Muay Thai hobbyist![
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<YeahOKJen>
 
spacetime said:
Name one world class striker they beat.
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You'll just deny their class, not worth my time.

Maybe YOU post your list of "world class strikers" in MMA first.
 
Hotora86 said:
You'll just deny their class, not worth my time.

Maybe YOU post your list of "world class strikers" in MMA first.
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Jake Shields
Tank Abbott
K1 Ronda
K1 Gabi
Coach Edmund

There's alot
 
spacetime said:
Name one world class striker they beat.
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Not sure if you are specifically referring to MMA guys, but it's not unheard of for Karate based guys to get wins over quality Thais, in this recent case Wanchalong took a highlight reel L against Tenshin...

 
Hotora86 said:
You'll just deny their class, not worth my time.

Maybe YOU post your list of "world class strikers" in MMA first.
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Don't give this guy any more thread ideas.

I feel dirty for even having clicked a spacetime thread.
 
Hotora86 said:
You'll just deny their class, not worth my time.

Maybe YOU post your list of "world class strikers" in MMA first.
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Not defending Space time, however, the time of shitting on MMA fighters for substandard striking is done. Even if you skip the low hanging fruit of Hunto, Overeem, Sefo, etc. Top level MMA has some high end strikers.
I believe Stipie and Cigano on his vitamins could maybe have cracked the top 20 in boxing, same with Condit, Holloway and Stephen Thompson in kickboxing. Shevshenko and Nunes probably top 15 in women's kickboxing. Darren Till looked pretty fucking good too. I only found 3 fights, but his striking looked top level. Outside the top 10 of most striking organizations, you can most definitely find a MMA striker that can hang.
 
NAKMUAY18 said:
Not defending Space time, however, the time of shitting on MMA fighters for substandard striking is done. Even if you skip the low hanging fruit of Hunto, Overeem, Sefo, etc. Top level MMA has some high end strikers.
I believe Stipie and Cigano on his vitamins could maybe have cracked the top 20 in boxing, same with Condit, Holloway and Stephen Thompson in kickboxing. Shevshenko and Nunes probably top 15 in women's kickboxing. Darren Till looked pretty fucking good too. I only found 3 fights, but his striking looked top level. Outside the top 10 of most striking organizations, you can most definitely find a MMA striker that can hang.
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The thing is in fight sports sometimes you just have to land one big punch, so there are MMA guys with competent striking for sure that have the potential to land that shot, but when you compare the technical nuances to top NakMuay/Kickboxers they're not nearly as complete and polished. That's usually where the argument against MMA striking lays.

Like I can't think of anytime I've seen a guy in MMA counter kick off a check for example, and you see that all the time in Kickfight sports. Half the time they don't even check. Granted their are nuances to MMA that inhibit confidence in some of the more advanced striking techniques.

Schevchenko was a top Kick boxer I knew about her well before she went into the UFC.

Not buying on Condit and Thompson though. I think they are good strikers in MMA context but at their weight too many good Kickboxers. Darren Till is a complete nobody in Kickboxing and he just owned Cowboy.
 
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Snubnoze707 said:
The thing is in fight sports sometimes you just have to land one big punch, so there are MMA guys with competent striking for sure that have the potential to land that shot, but when you compare the technical nuances to top NakMuay/Kickboxers they're not nearly as complete and polished. That's usually where the argument against MMA striking lays.

Like I can't think of anytime I've seen a guy in MMA counter kick off a check for example, and you see that all the time in Kickfight sports. Half the time they don't even check. Granted their are nuances to MMA that inhibit confidence in some of the more advanced striking techniques.

Schevchenko was a top Kick boxer I knew about her well before she went into the UFC.

Not buying on Condit and Thompson though. I think they are good strikers in MMA context but at their weight too many good Kickboxers. Darren Till is a complete nobody in Kickboxing and he just owned Cowboy.
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The reason I doubt Thompson a little bit is that Thompson wasn't as good as Raymond Daniels or MVP - but Daniel's got tooled against good kickboxers.

Other wise, I'm glad at the points made by NAKMUAY18 - guys like Max Holloway are great strikers by any standard. I've been saying for a little while that MMA striking is now at a point where it's pretty good in general. I don't think they're as good as kickboxers, because they're not, but being real here, if I put Donald Cerrone against most kickboxers (save the elite) I think he has a good running against most of them. I could legitimately see him beating a lot of the top american and british kickboxers... probably not the dutch and thai though
 
NAKMUAY18 said:
Not defending Space time, however, the time of shitting on MMA fighters for substandard striking is done. Even if you skip the low hanging fruit of Hunto, Overeem, Sefo, etc. Top level MMA has some high end strikers.
I believe Stipie and Cigano on his vitamins could maybe have cracked the top 20 in boxing, same with Condit, Holloway and Stephen Thompson in kickboxing. Shevshenko and Nunes probably top 15 in women's kickboxing. Darren Till looked pretty fucking good too. I only found 3 fights, but his striking looked top level. Outside the top 10 of most striking organizations, you can most definitely find a MMA striker that can hang.
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I did not shit on the level of striking in mma, I simply pointed out that Machida did not beat any world class strikers. Fact. So to use him as an argument is ludicrious. Same goes for wonderboy who fought in some outdated Kickboxing organisation against nobodies.
 
I have seen plenty of WAKO KB style fights and its not uncommon to see attrocious half assed punching from famous fighters . If the kickboxer isnt even a decent puncher it has zero merits winning those tournaments. Muay Thai fighters on the other hand have quite good hands these days. Thompson is strangely absent from those.

Tyron Woodley has better boxing than Thompson!! A wrestling based guy. And he outstruck wonderboy in several exchanges
 
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AndyMaBobs said:
if I put Donald Cerrone against most kickboxers (save the elite) I think he has a good running against most of them. I could legitimately see him beating a lot of the top american and british kickboxers...
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That's not a stretch because Americans and Brits aren't the greatest Kickboxers. What the Brits do have that is good is Muay Thai fighters. Cowboy would get finished by someone like Liam Harrison. Heck, the guy he just got his ass kicked by was a not well known British Kickboxer...
 
The best kick and boxing strikers in the world are in muay thai. Not because MT is better but because the talentpool is
 
Snubnoze707 said:
That's not a stretch because Americans and Brits aren't the greatest Kickboxers. What the Brits do have that is good is Muay Thai fighters. Cowboy would get finished by someone like Liam Harrison. Heck, the guy he just got his ass kicked by was a not well known British Kickboxer...
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I think the British Muay Thai scene has Bad Company gym - where Liam Harrison and Jordan Watson come from and that's about it for us. To be fair to Darren Till though, that guy is legitimately very good and is only 24, and he went straight into MMA after his kickboxing career - so he could have very well become well known in kickboxing if he had more time.
 
Snubnoze707 said:
Not sure if you are specifically referring to MMA guys, but it's not unheard of for Karate based guys to get wins over quality Thais, in this recent case Wanchalong took a highlight reel L against Tenshin...

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Excellent knock out and excellent knockers on those ring girls.
<mma4>
 
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