Tombstone (1993) vs Wyatt Earp (1994)

Discussion in 'Mayberry Lounge' started by Guestx, Aug 5, 2016.

  1. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

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    Good points, and I do agree with you. I guess I just didn't like the way it was executed. There was potential there with the setup from the initial scenes with each other, with Josephine being a wild girl for the times, and I thought they did a good job with Doc and Kate's story line. Whatever, still a great movie, just a minor annoyance for me.
     
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  2. ProBoxingInsidr

    ProBoxingInsidr Red Belt

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    well, if they were trying to tell us what kind of guy he was, they fucked up pretty bad. he was just a criminal with a badge, as were most lawmen in those days. certainly far from the noble guy the movie portrayed him to be
     
  3. TrueBias

    TrueBias Red Belt

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    ive not seen wyatt earp since the first time.

    i remember they focused on the fact that wyatt had never been shot.

    also dennis quaid did a very lazy doc. i dont remember him in any gun fights or talking about being a dentist. wait....val didnt talk about being a dentist.

    odd how both of those movies came out around the same time.
     
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  4. Guestx

    Guestx Guest

    You need to separate Wyatt Earp the real-life man from Wyatt Earp the character in Tombstone.

    I don't think the movie is supposed to be a commentary (or biography) on the real-life man.
     
  5. BVG

    BVG Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card Banned

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    Poor billybob elected to "just stand there and bleed"
     
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  6. Strychnine

    Strychnine Gold Belt

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    I have The Seven Samurai and Ben Hur. :)
     
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  7. Guestx

    Guestx Guest

    Oh VHS. . .

    We're so far beyond that format now in terms of technical superiority, but it will always have a special place in my heart.
     
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  8. Strychnine

    Strychnine Gold Belt

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    Even without the translation, you can FEEL that soon, VERY soon, the space between these two men will turn into Tigers. The way that the dialogue, the pacing, and the simple fact that the Cowboys OWN Tombstone and that's how they like it come together is amazing.

    And ain't no retired Kansas Law-Dog is going to usurp their stranglehold on that town.
     
  9. Guestx

    Guestx Guest

    Great scene. I do feel compelled to point out that that's more of a thought for thought translation than a literal one.

    For instance, "in vino veritas" would be more literally translated as "in wine there is truth," or even more literally as "in wine, truth." But of course we all know what he means by that.

    Here's something I pulled from a Latin site that goes into a bit more detail:

    Doc : In vino veritas.
    Ringo : Age quod agis.
    Doc : Credat Judaeus Apella, non ego.
    Ringo : Juventus stultorum magister.
    Doc : In pace requiescat!

    Doc : In wine there is truth.

    Doc Holiday is excusing his own behavior here, and further insulting Johnny Ringo by saying that he is drunk, and saying truthful things he would otherwise not reveal. He had previously said he hated Johnny Ringo for being similar to himself.

    Ringo : Do what you do / Watch what you do.

    This is one of the most interesting lines because it means more than just watch what you do. The line can be interpreted as be careful, or people do what they do (saying that Doc Holiday is drunk because he is a drunkard), and it can also mean something along the lines of do what you do best, which would be gunfight since Ringo had apparently heard of Holiday's skill. It is a challenge and an insult combined into one.

    Doc : Tell it to someone else, not I.

    This line is dismissive. Doc Holiday is conveying the fact that he doesn't care what Johnny Ringo is saying and that he doesn't care what his advice is.

    A common Latin saying meaning "Let the Jew Apella believe it; not I". The phrase means, roughly, tell it to someone else, not me.

    The reference is taken from the work Satires (book one, satire five) by ancient poet Horace. It is derived from a scene where people try to convince travellers of miracles happening at their shrines. The phrase is uttered to convey the disbelief and that they should tell their stories to someone else.

    Ringo : Youth is the teacher of fools.

    When Ringo taps his pistol he says this, which conveys the idea that Doc Holiday is inexperienced (youthfull) and ignorant of the danger he is getting himself into.

    "Juventus stultorum magister" is a common Latin aphorism, or phrase that has many implied and implicit meanings. The sentance translates to "youth is the teacher of fools".

    Juventus isn't really a latin word, they didn't use the letter 'J' so it is really Iuventus, which is in the nominative case (subject of the sentence), and it means youth or adolescence.

    Stultorum is a latin derivation of the word stultus, stulti which means fool. The "orum" ending places it in the genative case, used (most frequently) to show possesion. Hence of fools.

    Magister literally means teacher or schoolmaster. It is in the Nominative case as well.

    There is an implied transitive verb such as "is" which would require the nominative case on both sides of the verb. Hence we have: "Youth is the teacher of fools".

    Doc : Rest in peace!

    To end the conversation Doc Holiday throws the previous warning back into Ringo's face. Doc tells him to rest in peace, or to die, because Ringo is unaware of the danger that Doc presents.

    The conversation, at first, does not seem to flow well, but there are several hidden meanings and ideas being passed back and forth. The use of these Latin phrases carries a lot of symbolism and meaning in the way they were used here. Now you know what the phrases translate, so go watch it again, this time with the knowledge of what they say so you can find the hidden implications of their conversation.
     
  10. ProBoxingInsidr

    ProBoxingInsidr Red Belt

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    i said in my first or second post in this thread that i gave them a pass. the movie was very loosely based on reality. usually i hate that, but the movie was so fun they got away with it. very few of the lawmen back in those days were great people. earp was no exception
     
  11. ClubFoot

    ClubFoot Therapy can be a good thing; it can be therapeutic Platinum Member

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    Id rather watch a dog turd with a cowboy hat on it for 2 hours than watch that plank of wood Costner shooting guns and not being able to act his way out of a wet paper bag.
     
  12. Pliny Pete

    Pliny Pete Puts Butts In Seats

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    Michael J Fox started the gunfight?
    Thats something they dont teach ya in the history books
     
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  13. Seraldo Babalu

    Seraldo Babalu Green Belt

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    Tombstone in this ho'
     
  14. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

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    LOL. I'm such an idiot.
     
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  15. BisexualMMA

    BisexualMMA Don't Put My Name in the Name of Steroids!

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    Usually you hear about things like Pacino and DeNiro pushing each other to new levels, but here you got Val Kilmer and Michael Biehn getting the best out of each other in a scene.

    It's a shame George P. Cosmatos didn't direct more films. For an action director, he got well above-average performances out of his cast. Cobra was arguably Brian Thompson's best performance, Rambo 2 was arguably Charles Napier's and maybe even Steven Berkoff's (come at me, Barry Lyndon Juggalos).

    I sometimes forget Leviathan was even a movie, but it was actually a pretty effective horror and maybe the closest facsimile I have seen to John Carpenter's "The Thing."
     
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  16. CrazyN8

    CrazyN8 Custom Title

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    Tombstone via 7 second walk off KO. Why just an hour ago I told someone in the war room not to crawfish....stoppped shy of telling him to drill that ole devil in the ass.
     
  17. FyrFytr998

    FyrFytr998 Gemtor Belt

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  18. fonzob1

    fonzob1 Red Belt

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    While Kevin Costner's portrayal of Wyatt Earp is probably historically more accurate, Tombstone was a superior production to Wyatt Earp in every way. There is no comparison.
     
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  19. chickenluver

    chickenluver Bookmobile Driver

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    It reminds me of my early childhood, so I have fond memories attached to VHS, but overall I hate the format. I don't remember watching a movie that was on two tapes, but splitting a movie in two is annoying. Even some DVDs do this for REALLY long movies. Glad we're moving beyond DVD now too.
     
  20. Guestx

    Guestx Guest

    I will never hate VHS. I actually put together a small VHS collection a few years ago just to have it and preserve something from that era. I even still have a VCR and occasionally pop a tape in just for the memories.

    And when you say "move on from DVD" you mean move on to Blu-Ray, I agree. If you mean move away from physical formats, I disagree emphatically.
     

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