Tim Kennedy inspired by Trump's bombings. Re-enlists in military

jgarner said:
That's some pretty pathetic shit right there. We ran missions like that a few times and caught guys instead of painting the streets with their brains, but we'd gun them down before we let them just walk. That's definitely not coming down from the highest levels though. Just sounds like shitty command. Who was your battalion under in country?
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RCT 1



jgarner said:
I totally disagree. Six years from then, the exact same shit would have happened. This shit was planned. They waited for us to leave, and Iraqi forces are so hopelessly fucked, 6 years of training would do fuck all to stabilize the country. All it would do is force us to spend billions and keep losing American troops. Then we'd be at the same place. It was always going to happen. It would take trillions of dollars and decades to sort this mess out. A few years isn't going to make those guys go away.

Besides that, did you not forget that the Iraqi government wanted us gone? The deal for our turnover, set by President Bush long before President Obama got there, meant we were leaving. Whatever date we set, that was the date ISIL was waiting for. America can't stop wahabbism in the Middle East. This is their fight and they have to sort it out with their own blood and money. Half of the fighting propaganda is them hating our involvement and our guns and money flooding into the region. The US stepping down from this is a necessary step.
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They were absolutely waiting for us to leave. I remember being there in 2004 and talking to people and having people tell us that nobody was going to get involved because everyone knew that eventually we were going to leave. When we left, all hell would break loose. Nobody was going to put themselves in a position to get hurt. I think when I was there in 08 we were finally starting to get it figured out how to deal with them from a cultural perspective and not to treat them as if they were Americans who thought and felt the way we did that we were actually starting to make progress. That the training and the tactics we were teaching them were actually starting to have an affect, and that we were starting to loosen our doctrine to make it fit how these guys fought. That it was ridiculous to take the AK away from them and give them what is essentially a target rifle that they will never understand. That they don't really care over much about the fundamentals of marksmenship. I think that we only gave that three years and expected that the world had changed. It hadn't. It wouldn't have changed now. But I think we'd be on our way to building something.

I don't believe they wanted us gone. I don't think that for one second. Obama started trying to force Western Liberal "inclusive government" on a people who had been brutally subjugated and oppressed by the other sect for 40 some years, then looked around all confused when they didn't accept that and drew closer to Iran. It was sheer and utter idiocy. If he had not actually wanted that thing to collapse and for Iraq to essentially divide itself with Iran eventually annexing most of the region, something we stayed there so long to prevent, he could have backed off what was nothing more than ideologically driven hogwash.
 
Gregolian said:
This is the sort of shit my friend in the service had to deal with all the time.



The after the fact second guessing is what got to them
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Generation Kill is a great series. Beyond the caricatures of leadership which were highly exaggerated, there's a good bit of truth about the experience in that series. It's fictionalized truth of course, and nobody is as dumb all the time as Encino Man was portrayed. Still, I've found it more relatable to my experience than any other show.

lfd0311 said:
RCT 1

They were absolutely waiting for us to leave. I remember being there in 2004 and talking to people and having people tell us that nobody was going to get involved because everyone knew that eventually we were going to leave. When we left, all hell would break loose. Nobody was going to put themselves in a position to get hurt. I think when I was there in 08 we were finally starting to get it figured out how to deal with them from a cultural perspective and not to treat them as if they were Americans who thought and felt the way we did that we were actually starting to make progress. That the training and the tactics we were teaching them were actually starting to have an affect, and that we were starting to loosen our doctrine to make it fit how these guys fought. That it was ridiculous to take the AK away from them and give them what is essentially a target rifle that they will never understand. That they don't really care over much about the fundamentals of marksmenship. I think that we only gave that three years and expected that the world had changed. It hadn't. It wouldn't have changed now. But I think we'd be on our way to building something.

I don't believe they wanted us gone. I don't think that for one second. Obama started trying to force Western Liberal "inclusive government" on a people who had been brutally subjugated and oppressed by the other sect for 40 some years, then looked around all confused when they didn't accept that and drew closer to Iran. It was sheer and utter idiocy. If he had not actually wanted that thing to collapse and for Iraq to essentially divide itself with Iran eventually annexing most of the region, something we stayed there so long to prevent, he could have backed off what was nothing more than ideologically driven hogwash.
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When I worked with them, they were fucking hopeless and fighting each other. I was literally caught in between a mini war between two different Iraqi Police stations for 72 hours once. A few more years of help wasn't changing a lifetime of suck. I firmly believe that this was inevitable and would have happened then or now. Western culture isn't going to fix the Middle East. The issues behind ISIL and Syria are just deeply embedded in their cultures. All we did was give ISIL guns and ammo. It happens every single time we try and help these rebel groups and governments. They either wind up fleeing and leaving their weapons for the enemy or turning out to be just as extreme as the guys they are fighting. The only thing I can see us doing to "help" is a full on invasion and occupation like the surge in Iraq, and just hold that shit for decades. Is that really something we want to do? Why them and not all the psychos in Africa?
 
jgarner said:
When I worked with them, they were fucking hopeless and fighting each other. I was literally caught in between a mini war between two different Iraqi Police stations for 72 hours once. A few more years of help wasn't changing a lifetime of suck. I firmly believe that this was inevitable and would have happened then or now. Western culture isn't going to fix the Middle East. The issues behind ISIL and Syria are just deeply embedded in their cultures. All we did was give ISIL guns and ammo. It happens every single time we try and help these rebel groups and governments. They either wind up fleeing and leaving their weapons for the enemy or turning out to be just as extreme as the guys they are fighting. The only thing I can see us doing to "help" is a full on invasion and occupation like the surge in Iraq, and just hold that shit for decades. Is that really something we want to do? Why them and not all the psychos in Africa?
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I went through some of that stuff too. When I was there in 2004 the IA in our AO was stealing gas from the local gas station. As in the IA commander would bring the whole Company down at one time, fill up the compan and personal vehicles, steal some of the dude's other stuff, smack him around, and leave. So the guy got tired of it and got ahold of his cousin who was a police commander somewhere in AL Anbar who brought his entire police command to this gas station and sat on it until the IA showed up again, and they had a big fight right then and there.

I'm not trying to say that stuff would not have continued to go on. Banditry and strongman tactics like that are just too much a feature of that culture for our tiny little presence to ever change that. But we were starting to figure out how to make it work. How to get them to patrol and not see it as a means to just rob people or met out old tribal revenge on everyone. The high command had finally realized that you couldn't just stand up entire militia units, claim they were now IA units and keep them in the same region they lived in under the influence of the same local warlords who had always controlled them to begin with. They were starting to move people around. They had figured out that you couldn't do that. They were putting Sunni units in charge of Shia areas and vice versa, with heavy American presence to supervise, and it was working. Several more years of that and I think we could have fielded a force that could have at the very least not capitulated immediately to ISIS, which was our ultimate goal to begin with, instead of just immediately surrendering everything so many people bled and died for in that country.
 
lfd0311 said:
I went through some of that stuff too. When I was there in 2004 the IA in our AO was stealing gas from the local gas station. As in the IA commander would bring the whole Company down at one time, fill up the compan and personal vehicles, steal some of the dude's other stuff, smack him around, and leave. So the guy got tired of it and got ahold of his cousin who was a police commander somewhere in AL Anbar who brought his entire police command to this gas station and sat on it until the IA showed up again, and they had a big fight right then and there.

I'm not trying to say that stuff would not have continued to go on. Banditry and strongman tactics like that are just too much a feature of that culture for our tiny little presence to ever change that. But we were starting to figure out how to make it work. How to get them to patrol and not see it as a means to just rob people or met out old tribal revenge on everyone. The high command had finally realized that you couldn't just stand up entire militia units, claim they were now IA units and keep them in the same region they lived in under the influence of the same local warlords who had always controlled them to begin with. They were starting to move people around. They had figured out that you couldn't do that. They were putting Sunni units in charge of Shia areas and vice versa, with heavy American presence to supervise, and it was working. Several more years of that and I think we could have fielded a force that could have at the very least not capitulated immediately to ISIS, which was our ultimate goal to begin with, instead of just immediately surrendering everything so many people bled and died for in that country.
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I'm not sure what area you were in, but our attempt at turning them into competent police turned into a complete failure, and you could see the results of our efforts by how little resistance the city of Ramadi put up when ISIL came to town. The few IPs who didn't straight up join them simply abandoned their post without a fight and walked away. Didn't bother to take their weapons with them which resulted in a wonderful arsenal for ISIL. The tribalism is so deeply embedded in their culture that they aren't interested in changing from what I saw. The 10% who wanted change were the 10% to die first at the changing of hands.

The American military is fully capable of killing the enemy over there. We are fully capable of occupying any city over there. We can even equip all of them. What we can't do is instill Western values or take away the deeply rooted tribalism. We aren't going to change that culture to reflect ours. Too many of them want Wahhabism and a single caliphate. And they all think their way is the right way, and that everyone else should convert to their specific belief or be killed because they are stupid and defile the religion (or whatever bullshit they feel like using to justify their violence)
 
omg these stories are bringing back memories.
 
jgarner said:
Generation Kill is a great series. Beyond the caricatures of leadership which were highly exaggerated, there's a good bit of truth about the experience in that series. It's fictionalized truth of course, and nobody is as dumb all the time as Encino Man was portrayed. Still, I've found it more relatable to my experience than any other show.
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Encino Man is still in, unfortunately. He's a LtCol with some cushy job down at MacDill in CentCom.
 
The Higher Power said:
Encino Man is still in, unfortunately. He's a LtCol with some cushy job down at MacDill in CentCom.
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That's the issue I have with the movie. It doesn't really give him a chance to air his side, and from others who know him, he isn't that incompetent. We really only get one side of the story, and the book and series is written from Lt Fink's perspective. There's a long article on the internet by one of Encino Man's co-workers in the unit who says he's been competent through most of his career.

Having served and knowing how rumors spread, I really hate commencing a man's actions in combat unless I know for a fact that he made poor decisions. There book isn't historical fact, therefore I have to withhold opinions. Overall it's a great read and good entertainment. I put it in the same historical context as Band of Brothers and Ambrose.

Out of any Hollywood shit to ever come out about the Marine Corps experience, Generation Kill pretty much nailed it to a tee. They definitely nailed the conversation styles.
 
jgarner said:
I'm not sure what area you were in, but our attempt at turning them into competent police turned into a complete failure, and you could see the results of our efforts by how little resistance the city of Ramadi put up when ISIL came to town. The few IPs who didn't straight up join them simply abandoned their post without a fight and walked away. Didn't bother to take their weapons with them which resulted in a wonderful arsenal for ISIL. The tribalism is so deeply embedded in their culture that they aren't interested in changing from what I saw. The 10% who wanted change were the 10% to die first at the changing of hands.

The American military is fully capable of killing the enemy over there. We are fully capable of occupying any city over there. We can even equip all of them. What we can't do is instill Western values or take away the deeply rooted tribalism. We aren't going to change that culture to reflect ours. Too many of them want Wahhabism and a single caliphate. And they all think their way is the right way, and that everyone else should convert to their specific belief or be killed because they are stupid and defile the religion (or whatever bullshit they feel like using to justify their violence)
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And again, I'm not talking about instilling Western values. I know that isn't possible. I'm talking about standing up a force that would have resisted ISIS. We could have at least done that. That could have happened. Tribalism or no Tribalism, we could have put together a force that would have resisted a jihadist army.
 
jgarner said:
That's the issue I have with the movie. It doesn't really give him a chance to air his side, and from others who know him, he isn't that incompetent. We really only get one side of the story, and the book and series is written from Lt Fink's perspective. There's a long article on the internet by one of Encino Man's co-workers in the unit who says he's been competent through most of his career.

Having served and knowing how rumors spread, I really hate commencing a man's actions in combat unless I know for a fact that he made poor decisions. There book isn't historical fact, therefore I have to withhold opinions. Overall it's a great read and good entertainment. I put it in the same historical context as Band of Brothers and Ambrose.

Out of any Hollywood shit to ever come out about the Marine Corps experience, Generation Kill pretty much nailed it to a tee. They definitely nailed the conversation styles.
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I'm sure he's always been a good intel officer, the problem is him and all the other SNCOs and officers wanted to get in on the invasion who weren't actually Recon and went through BRC and didn't have combat arms backgrounds at all (with the exception of the competent Alpha company commander and of course Lt Fick). I mean, the dude really did duct tape the windows on his vehicle and really did damn near call for fire on his own guys. That shit happened.
 
lfd0311 said:
And again, I'm not talking about instilling Western values. I know that isn't possible. I'm talking about standing up a force that would have resisted ISIS. We could have at least done that. That could have happened. Tribalism or no Tribalism, we could have put together a force that would have resisted a jihadist army.
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My point is that wahabbism and tribalism is so deeply entrenched in their culture that a strong national force would take a decade or more to put together. They have to want this for themselves.

The Higher Power said:
I'm sure he's always been a good intel officer, the problem is him and all the other SNCOs and officers wanted to get in on the invasion who weren't actually Recon and went through BRC and didn't have combat arms backgrounds at all (with the exception of the competent Alpha company commander and of course Lt Fick). I mean, the dude really did duct tape the windows on his vehicle and really did damn near call for fire on his own guys. That shit happened.
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Mistakes happen in combat with lack of sleep. Duct taping your windows is silly but harmless. Almost dropping ordinance on your head is definitely a problem though. I haven't seen the after action report so I'm not sure of the actual details behind the call for fire mission. There's always some weird disconnect between real grunts and pogs that come into their units. I'm sure there's a lot of truth in the story, I just can't bring myself to condemn a veteran like that without hard proof of their incompetence.
 
jgarner said:
My point is that wahabbism and tribalism is so deeply entrenched in their culture that a strong national force would take a decade or more to put together. They have to want this for themselves.
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And I completely agree with all of that. It's the root of every problem we're always going to have. The point I guess I'm trying to make is that we werenat the very least starting to understand how to break that up at the regional level and build a more centralized command structure that was to some extend adherent to it's authority. I'm often wonder what that would look like today with the years since to build on it. I'm not trying to say it was nearly there. It was in its infancy.
 
lfd0311 said:
And I completely agree with all of that. It's the root of every problem we're always going to have. The point I guess I'm trying to make is that we werenat the very least starting to understand how to break that up at the regional level and build a more centralized command structure that was to some extend adherent to it's authority. I'm often wonder what that would look like today with the years since to build on it. I'm not trying to say it was nearly there. It was in its infancy.
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Yeah I just think that progess was just an illusion. I think ISIL decided to purposely stop attacking American forces to get the Americans to leave. They never left and we never pushed them back. The entire last year they kept hitting Iraqis hard and setting up the move for when we left. As soon as we left an organized take over started. All the major government leaders that weren't on board got assassinated and ISIL changed the game. We killed all the dumb ones by 2008. The rest were playing the waiting game.
 
lfd0311 said:
A guy who is openly not a Republican, nor a Trump supporter, re-enlisting in the Military has rustled you so badly that he's now "a Trumper" huh?
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Kennedy is both a republican and a trump supporter.... sorry to break the news to ya buddeh
 
lfd0311 said:
He absolutely did not make the right choice. What do you suppose the region would look like now with another 6 years of American presence and security? With 6 more years of American training and support?
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what would the region look like if you goofs didnt mess it up in the first place?
 
MayhemMonkey said:
what would the region look like if you goofs didnt mess it up in the first place?
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It's good thing your beloved UK never had a presence in the Middle East.
Oh wait...
 
Never heard of Tim Kennedy. is he a UFC or Bellator fighter?
 
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