Social There were roughly 12 million Indians living in America when Europeans arrived, by 1900 there was just 237,000. How is that not a genocide?

[Anewt]

You are aware that European people intentionally traded disease ridden objects with natives?

You are aware the purposeful apread of the disease [ smallpox by blankets ] would account for such a small % of those who died due to smallpox.


Yet, the most infamous records of intentionally spreading smallpox to Native Americans occurred in 1763 at Fort Pitt (present day downtown Pittsburgh). On June 24, 1763, William Trent, a fur trader commissioned at Fort Pitt, wrote in his journal after a failed negotiation between the British and the Delaware tribe.


But smallpox was already rife throughout the americas prior to then..

Year	Location	Description
1520–1527​	Mexico, Central America, South America​	Smallpox kills 5-8 millions of native inhabitants of Mexico. Unintentionally introduced at Veracruz with the arrival of Panfilo de Narvaez on April 23, 1520, and was credited with the victory of Cortes over the Aztec empire at Tenochtitlan (present-day Mexico City) in 1521. Kills the Inca ruler, Huayna Capac, and 200,000 others and weakens the Incan Empire.​
1561–1562​	Chile​	No precise numbers on deaths exist in contemporary records but it is estimated that natives lost 20 to 25 percent of their population. According to Alonso de Góngora Marmolejo, so many Indian laborers died that the Spanish gold mines had to shut down.[32]​
1588–1591​	Central Chile​	A combined smallpox, measles and typhus plague strikes Central Chile contributing to a decline of indigenous populations.[33]​
1617–1619​	North America northern east coast​	Killed 90% of the Massachusetts Bay Indians​
1655​	Chillán, Central Chile​	An outbreak of smallpox occurred among refugees from Chillán as the city was evacuated amidst the Mapuche uprising of 1655. Spanish authorities put this group in effective quarantine decreeing death sentences for anyone crossing Maule River north.[34]​
1674​	Cherokee Tribe​	Death count unknown. Population in 1674 about 50,000. After 1729, 1738, and 1753 smallpox epidemics their population was only 25,000 when they were forced to Oklahoma on the Trail Of Tears.​
1692​	Boston, MA​	​
1702–1703​	St. Lawrence Valley, NY​	​
1721​	Boston, MA​	A British sailor disembarking HMS Seahorse brought smallpox to Boston. 5759 people were infected and 844 died.​

my opinion would be some tribes would fall under being victims of genocide . Not native americans as a whole.

The way i use the term anyway.

 

[Anewt]

Also... history is a convoluted bitch.

Smallpox, perhaps augmented by other endemic diseases, had ravaged the mighty Aztecs and Incas at the time of the Spanish conquests and killed more than half the Indians in the Caribbean. But the chain of events behind the one authentic case of deliberate smallpox contamination began in 1757 at the siege of Fort William Henry (in present-day upstate New York), when Indians allied with the French ignored the terms of a surrender worked out between the British and the French, broke into the garrison hospital and killed and scalped a number of patients, some of them suffering from smallpox. The blankets and clothing the Indians looted from the patients in the hospital and corpses in the cemetery, carried back to their villages, reportedly touched off a smallpox epidemic.


What happened to the Missouri River farming tribes and the Plains tribes in general in 1837–38 was the culmination of three centuries of tragedy.


The tribe worst ravaged was the Mandan, a Siouan-speaking farming tribe intermarried, to some degree, with French traders and already decimated by a smallpox epidemic at the end of the 18th century. On July 14, in the ominous summer of 1837, Francis Chardon, Franco-American factor of Fort Clark, an American Fur Company trading post in the Mandan country along the Missouri River, reported that “a young Mandan died today of the smallpox — several others has [sic] caught it.” Chardon later told John James Audubon that a Mandan had swiped a blanket from the infected deckhand of the steam boat St. Peter’s when it stopped for supplies at Fort Clark. Jacob Halsey, another fur company official, reported smallpox shortly after the steamboat stopped at Fort Clark. Halsey himself was quarantined when he reached Fort Union; he recovered from the disease, but it claimed his half-blood wife.

Smallpox exploded among the Mandans. They blamed Chardon, whose respected Lakota wife had recently died, though not of smallpox. But Chardon hadn’t touched off the epidemic and had in fact tried in vain to keep the Mandans away from the steamboat once he learned smallpox was present. Chardon thought the Mandans didn’t compare favorably with the Lakotas — his late wife’s people — but he certainly didn’t want to see them wiped out.



I cannot consider it a purposeful genocide due to the death toll of diseases/viruses spread in such ways.... Theres very few cases of intentional spreading and countless of just a tragic outcome....

Seems odd to pick the far less frequent option as the main culprit

 

[ferrisjso]

Machiavelli would probably agree with you on that. Although I would point out that the men who stabbed Caesar were themselves killed within a year of the assassination. Not a single one of the assassins survived. So whatever their motivations, it didn't do them much good in the end.

You are correct.

I was looking for an excuse to drop a stabbing reference.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Settlers Got a little lazy with that last quarter million

 

[Jesus X]

Don’t forget the Pequot and Mohegan “Indian” living a rich life in Connecticut.

Who ever owns pechanga,morongo or yaamava in CA is obscenely wealthy. Those casinos are busy

 

[Ballsaque]

When more are killed by diseases its pretty hard for me to call genocide.

w.. why? I mean the killing was caused by Europeans.

 

[Anewt]

w.. why? I mean the killing was caused by Europeans.

Do you hold the same standard for all deadly viruses ? Whoever had the virus first is trying to kill whoever gets it next ? Take another deadly virus in history..

[ Plague is caused by Yersinia pestis bacteria. It can be a life-threatening infection if not treated promptly. Plague has caused several major epidemics in Europe and Asia over the last 2,000 years. Plague has most famously been called "the Black Death" because it can cause skin sores that form black scabs ]

Genetic analysis points to the evolution of Yersinia pestis [ in the Tian Shan mountains on the border between Kyrgyzstan and China 2,600 years ago. The immediate territorial origins of the Black Death and its outbreak remain unclear, with some evidence pointing towards Central Asia, China, the Middle East, and Europe.[8][9] The pandemic was reportedly first introduced to Europe during the siege of the Genoese trading port of Kaffa in Crimea by the Golden Horde army of Jani Beg in 1347.



When we talk about the devastation caused by the black death / other infectous outbreaks throughout history its never spoken about in the context of genocide.... why does it change ?


Also... the main reason i dont consider it genocide is because genocide literally means deliberate....




genocide
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

By the definition it ( to me ) certainly can be attached to some tribes who were targets for genocides by europeans... also for some who were targeted by other tribes.

But i cant attach the massive bulk of the deaths which were caused by the disease to a genocidal plan.

 

[djacobox372]

Every war of conquest is "genocide." The Natives acted "genocidal" towards the original settlers as well.

Interesting note: according to some DNA studies the modern Native Americans aren't direct descendants of ancient Native Americans. Seems like there may have been "genocide" long before Europeans stepped foot in North America.

 

[Osculater]

Clash of cultures, only the strong survive. Only one way of life will prevail. Now the Native American culture is the same as the European culture.

Just like when the Muslim culture gets imported to Europe, only one culture will be left at the end.

Allah Akbar!

 

[Osculater]

The native americans also genocided each other. There's been several ice ages in which Asiatic people crossed to the Americas and each time, when they came across one another, more likely than not, they genocided and enslaved and sometime cannibalised the losing side. Original natives no longer exist. The ones we see today are descendants of the natives that won the war against the previous natives who also won the war against the prior natives, etc...

Like Europeans

 

[Osculater]

I wonder if the TS knows that tribes had been genociding each other long before evil whitey showed up.

Like the Europeans in Europe

 

[Anewt]

Like the Europeans in Europe

Like every race / group on every continent really

 

[Iconoclast]

It is.

 

[Bobby00]

Coming from the guy who thinks if the feds killed Kennedy the government should hide it for as long as possible to the public. Doubtful.

 

[AbominableJoman]

It sucks that Indians slaughtered each other before the big scary Europeans came and also killed the Indians…

 

[TheMaster]

90-95% were killed due to disease.

Even if that stat is correct, 10% of 12 million is still 1.2 million.

Clash of cultures, only the strong survive. Only one way of life will prevail. Now the Native American culture is the same as the European culture.

Just like when the Muslim culture gets imported to Europe, only one culture will be left at the end.

You mean in the future most all western muslims will be gay trans supporting liberal muslims?

 

[Ballsaque]

Do you hold the same standard for all deadly viruses ? Whoever had the virus first is trying to kill whoever gets it next ? Take another deadly virus in history..

[ Plague is caused by Yersinia pestis bacteria. It can be a life-threatening infection if not treated promptly. Plague has caused several major epidemics in Europe and Asia over the last 2,000 years. Plague has most famously been called "the Black Death" because it can cause skin sores that form black scabs ]

Genetic analysis points to the evolution of Yersinia pestis [ in the Tian Shan mountains on the border between Kyrgyzstan and China 2,600 years ago. The immediate territorial origins of the Black Death and its outbreak remain unclear, with some evidence pointing towards Central Asia, China, the Middle East, and Europe.[8][9] The pandemic was reportedly first introduced to Europe during the siege of the Genoese trading port of Kaffa in Crimea by the Golden Horde army of Jani Beg in 1347.



When we talk about the devastation caused by the black death / other infectous outbreaks throughout history its never spoken about in the context of genocide.... why does it change ?


Also... the main reason i dont consider it genocide is because genocide literally means deliberate....




genocide
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

By the definition it ( to me ) certainly can be attached to some tribes who were targets for genocides by europeans... also for some who were targeted by other tribes.

But i cant attach the massive bulk of the deaths which were caused by the disease to a genocidal plan.

I think its arguing semantics at this point that doesnt really matter in any meaningful sense.

 

[Anewt]

I think its arguing semantics at this point that doesnt really matter in any meaningful sense.

Yeah im a bit different im a bit of a stickler on definitions of words



To me its not gencide as to me a genocide must be deliberate

 

[cincymma79]

You are aware that European people intentionally traded disease ridden objects with natives?

When was germ theory discovered

 

[RoñaCastroJr]

I can see the argument for it, but the time frame is probably the biggest issue. You're talking about a 400 year period. Genocides usually have a much shorter time frame. The holocaust for example was about 5 years.

Which Holocaust ?
The one the zionists are perpetrating in Gaza ?
Thats been for far more than 5 years