The SJW definition of racism and dismissal of reverse racism is incredibly racist

[Unknown Pleasures]

but isnt affirmative action inherently racist as it assumes that black people are less capable than white people and thus need the extra help?

I think affirmative action means different things to different people.

My view would be discrimination always exists to varying degrees. The goal of affirmative action is to provide a structural benefit to an overall group of people that have a structural disadvantage, with the goal to achieve an even playing field. Some would argue it is the lesser of evils in imperfect systems. That does not assume that black people are less capable than white people and need the extra help.

 

[HomerThompson]

that's not what ya mum said last night





Apparently Chael, Kongo, and Tito all wanted to step in and it didn't happen. I'm legitimately buttmad. At least we get Derrick Lewis tomorrow. Swangin' and Bangin' goin H-Town on some hoes

That's weak as fuck. Yeah, hopefully Lewis punches Browne's head off.

 

[HomerThompson]

so black people on average are less competent than white people because of historical reasons

i dont see how that isnt a racist statement

No, that's not what I said at all. They are historically disenfranchised. They had less ability because of factors outside their own control to accumulate wealth and become educated. They were disadvantaged intentionally. That's not the same as being less competent.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

that's not what ya mum said last night

 

[Devout Pessimist]

When I was a child a black kid kicked my sister in the face and called her a white bitch while we were walking to elementary school. According to SJWs that was not an act of racism.

 

[Pwent]

No, that's not what I said at all. They are historically disenfranchised. They had less ability because of factors outside their own control to accumulate wealth and become educated. They were disadvantaged intentionally. That's not the same as being less competent.

1- if someone saw a black person and a white person and said, "that black person is probably poorer and less educated than the white person", would you say that person is racist?

2-affirmative action lowers competency requirements based on race. if all people are equally competent and you outlawed racial discrimination in hiring/admittance, then we wouldnt need affirmative action and everyone would be proportionally represented, right?

for example, due to affirmative action in education, white/asian students have to have higher test scores than black students to be admitted to the same schools. why is it assumed that black students cant score the same scores on average and thus have no need for the affirmative action?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

1- if someone saw a black person and a white person and said, "that black person is probably poorer and less educated than the white person", would you say that person is racist?

2-affirmative action lowers competency requirements based on race. if all people are equally competent and you outlawed racial discrimination in hiring/admittance, then we wouldnt need affirmative action and everyone would be proportionally represented, right?

for example, due to affirmative action in education, white/asian students have to have higher test scores than black students to be admitted to the same schools. why is it assumed that black students cant score the same scores on average and thus have no need for the affirmative action?

1- Id probably go with narrow minded rather than racist

2- but lack of diversity in positions of power also leads to certain parts of society feeling disenfranchised. I agree that quotas are a bad idea though.(and frankly, dont really have an alternative I can think of off the top of my head)

 

[Pwent]

I think affirmative action means different things to different people.

My view would be discrimination always exists to varying degrees. The goal of affirmative action is to provide a structural benefit to an overall group of people that have a structural disadvantage, with the goal to achieve an even playing field. Some would argue it is the lesser of evils in imperfect systems. That does not assume that black people are less capable than white people and need the extra help.

but this assumes that the playing field is always uneven for black people. intelligent children of wealthy black people get the benefits of affirmative action over a poor white kid with a single crackhead mother

i think to say that black people start out disadvantaged or with less power than white people, is a very racist and toxic attitude towards them

i also think to say "well there are exceptions, but the general rule is that x race is more y than z race" is the same line of thought that people use to say blacks are criminals/thugs etc.

i dont think blaming historical reasons over genetics prevents it from being racist

 

[HomerThompson]

1- if someone saw a black person and a white person and said, "that black person is probably poorer and less educated than the white person", would you say that person is racist?

2-affirmative action lowers competency requirements based on race. if all people are equally competent and you outlawed racial discrimination in hiring/admittance, then we wouldnt need affirmative action and everyone would be proportionally represented, right?

for example, due to affirmative action in education, white/asian students have to have higher test scores than black students to be admitted to the same schools. why is it assumed that black students cant score the same scores on average and thus have no need for the affirmative action?

!. This isn't a micro-problem/concept, it's a macro one.

2. Segregation, white flight, and funding schools based on property taxes all contributed to black people being in worse schools. They aren't given the same tools to succeed. If you take two people of equal latent ability and put one with a poor family and one with a rich family, you will invariably see better outcomes for the child from the wealthy family. Better educated parents equal better nutrition and more value placed on education as well as the difference in the quality of school districts.

Affirmative action is about trying to create equality of opportunity. Even if people are equal, there situations and opportunities aren't necessarily equal.

 

[Pwent]

1- Id probably go with narrow minded rather than racist

2- but lack of diversity in positions of power also leads to certain parts of society feeling disenfranchised. I agree that quotas are a bad idea though.(and frankly, dont really have an alternative I can think of off the top of my head)

i think a better system is to make sure that nobody is discriminated by race, positively or negatively and then let the results happen as they will

i think telling people that they need extra help is a great way to take away their confidence and make them do worse

 

[seiger]

I have seen many SJW's and leftist university professors say that reverse racism isn't possible because racism requires privilege+power. They say that blacks cannot be racist to whites because of this "new" definition.

However, to say "racism requires privilege+power so black people cant be racist", relies on the argument that black people are never privileged and black people can never have power. It assumes that ALL black people start out worse than all white people, thus have less privilege. It also argues that no black person can ever become more powerful than a white person.

Can any leftist explain how they reconcile this and still say reverse racism isn't possible?

i think racism is racism and people need to remember that its not murder we are talking about, or a difficult concept.

if you are using race (an imaginary concept in itself) as a merit by which to judge someone, then you are engaging in racism.

the problem is that the oppressed peoples would not easily be able to address their oppressor without using the tool of race to open up the issue.

 

[HomerThompson]

but this assumes that the playing field is always uneven for black people. intelligent children of wealthy black people get the benefits of affirmative action over a poor white kid with a single crackhead mother

i think to say that black people start out disadvantaged or with less power than white people, is a very racist and toxic attitude towards them

i also think to say "well there are exceptions, but the general rule is that x race is more y than z race" is the same line of thought that people use to say blacks are criminals/thugs etc.

i dont think blaming historical reasons over genetics prevents it from being racist

I'd be ok with controlling for socioeconomic status as well, or even instead of race.

 

[Pwent]

!. This isn't a micro-problem/concept, it's a macro one.

2. Segregation, white flight, and funding schools based on property taxes all contributed to black people being in worse schools. They aren't given the same tools to succeed. If you take two people of equal latent ability and put one with a poor family and one with a rich family, you will invariably see better outcomes for the child from the wealthy family. Better educated parents equal better nutrition and more value placed on education as well as the difference in the quality of school districts.

Affirmative action is about trying to create equality of opportunity. Even if people are equal, there situations and opportunities aren't necessarily equal.

but affirmative action doesnt differentiate between families who benefited from segregation or didnt. it assumes white people in general benefitted from X, so this white person likely benefited from X.

if a white person and black person grow up on the same street, their parents have the same income, they go to the same public schools, have the same test scores and apply to the same university, the black student is more likely to get in than the white student, ENTIRELY because of his race. i dont see how that doesnt result in instances of racism

affirmative action aims for equality of result in school and job applications. if person from race X has to put more effort into building his resume than person Y to achieve the same job, because X is a more "privileged" race, thats forcing equal results

 

[HomerThompson]

but affirmative action doesnt differentiate between families who benefited from segregation or didnt. it assumes white people in general benefitted from X, so this white person likely benefited from X.

if a white person and black person grow up on the same street, their parents have the same income, they go to the same public schools, have the same test scores and apply to the same university, the black student is more likely to get in than the white student, ENTIRELY because of his race. i dont see how that doesnt result in instances of racism

affirmative action aims for equality of result in school and job applications. if person from race X has to put more effort into building his resume than person Y to achieve the same job, because X is a more "privileged" race, thats forcing equal results

It's attempting to create equality of opportunity, and like I said, I'd like to see socioeconomic status controlled for as well.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

but this assumes that the playing field is always uneven for black people. intelligent children of wealthy black people get the benefits of affirmative action over a poor white kid with a single crackhead mother

i think to say that black people start out disadvantaged or with less power than white people, is a very racist and toxic attitude towards them

i also think to say "well there are exceptions, but the general rule is that x race is more y than z race" is the same line of thought that people use to say blacks are criminals/thugs etc.

i dont think blaming historical reasons over genetics prevents it from being racist

I can say it does not assume that hte playing field is always uneven for black people.... Everybody who supports affirmative action knows its not a perfect system - as I specifically said before, there is no perfect system unless you have perfectly fair people willng to invest the time to explore every inch of someone's background and ability and judge them in a completely impartial way --- all that is NOT realistic. So some people view affirmative action as the least bad of the flawed systems out there. Everybody knows some black kids come from well off families - the crux of the position is if 1,000 people are treated unfairly, should we do something to reduce that if it means a different 800 people will be treated unfairly.

Most of the rest of your post I respectfully struggle to understand. Saying htat black people are disadvantaged in some respects, or are under represented in positions of power are more likely to be statistical or researched facts, not racist concepts. It could potentially be toxic - that I agree with.

 

[Pwent]

It's attempting to create equality of opportunity, and like I said, I'd like to see socioeconomic status controlled for as well.

socioeconomic status as well as race? or instead of race?

to me, anytime you make assumptions about someone based on their race, rather than their own character and merit, it is racism

"this person got an 1800 on the SAT and this person got 1650, but hes black so he probably is poor and has uneducated parents"


to say "its a macro issue" is like saying i wouldnt hire black people because black people on average are more likely to be criminals due to historical disenfranchisement

 

[Pwent]

I can say it does not assume that hte playing field is always uneven for black people.... Everybody who supports affirmative action knows its not a perfect system - as I specifically said before, there is no perfect system unless you have perfectly fair people willng to invest the time to explore every inch of someone's background and ability and judge them in a completely impartial way --- all that is NOT realistic. So some people view affirmative action as the least bad of the flawed systems out there. Everybody knows some black kids come from well off families - the crux of the position is if 1,000 people are treated unfairly, should we do something to reduce that if it means a different 800 people will be treated unfairly.

Most of the rest of your post I respectfully struggle to understand. Saying htat black people are disadvantaged in some respects, or are under represented in positions of power are more likely to be statistical or researched facts, not racist concepts. It could potentially be toxic - that I agree with.

i think we found agreement that affirmative action can result in instances of racism, although it is intended to fight racism. the argument comes down to, whether you want to defeat a lot of racism by participating in a smaller amount of racism

I just personally believe that every person should be judged by their actions and content of their character, and that race should only be used as a physical descriptor, like hair color. Affirmative action, though well intentioned, does not abide by this

 

[floivanus]

It makes no sense (though me personally, I have never heard anybody IRL say that blacks can't be racist. If anything, I have heard people say black people are more racist than white people).

The power thing though is important though to those who promote things like affirmative action so that it can justify one form of discrimination over another as there is a difference in intent.

I have an adopted black uncle, who 'follows' Islam (apparently never read his koran tho) that spouts that 'blacks can't be racist bull crap, talks shit about trannies and gays and hides behind 'being black' as his reason he can say what he does, because he can't be racist.

 

[floivanus]

When I was a child a black kid kicked my sister in the face and called her a white bitch while we were walking to elementary school. According to SJWs that was not an act of racism.

My wife grew up in a poor neighborhood (about two miles from the local 'projects') and she has many stories of being jumped by 2 or 3 other girls for being the 'white girl' they hated her for being better off than they were. Yet again, they were poor, so racism? Oh wait, nope

 

[TeTe]

I love how these topics and subject are typically derived from college professors and ultimately dispersed by their students, typically all over social media.

But that therein lies the problem, only people that have nothing better to do that sit around all fucking day and ponder shit like this. They try to figure out the meaning of life without really experiencing it first hand. I just can't take what any of these people who sit around in their bubble all day seriously. Rarely do you hear minorities talk about this weird shit either.. cause they're out busy working too just trying to get ahead, getting along with white people for the most part on a day to day basis.

It's like these people need to get out of the fucking house and find a purpose in life, instead of theorizing about it constantly.