The Last of Us: Part II (Release: 29.05.2020) - No spoilers

[GearSolidMetal]

You missed the point. Listen to the recordings in the hospital. Ellie was the cure. Joel doomed humanity. No two ways about it.

You're missing the point that the situation was never explained to her that the surgery would lead to her death, regardless of the chances of the results leading to a cure.

The story is pretty simple and.straightforward. People keep trying to add more complexity to it when it's not there.

Oh, so you take Marlene for her word. Good thing Ellie didn't take David for his.

Point being, characters in the deep world of TLoU are very much capable of lying.

If you take away the fact that Ellie had the cure then you've rendered Joel's decision meaningless.

She has a genetic immunity to the effects of the sickness, even though she carries it. It's theoretical that can it can be synthesized into a cure. Theoretical, as in it's merely a theory.

 

[Dizzy]

Lol, again, listen to the recordings. It is spelled out in simplest terms that she is the cure. You're adding things that aren't there. The actors have explained it, Druckmann has explained it.

Point blank, bottom line.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

The actors have explained it, Druckmann has explained it.

Point blank, bottom line.

Link?

 

[Madmick]

The ambiguity is what Ellie would do afterward. Would she attempt to make contact with the fireflies to complete the surgery? Stay there at Joel's brother's outpost and life a long and healthy life?

There's was absolutely nothing shown that forms a compelling indication she would leave. Dizzy is right. They conveyed an incredibly strong sense of conclusion panning over the place where they would settle. It was eminently clear that Ellie intended to stay with Joel.

There was ALOT of discussion about this when the game was released, and then rereleased on the PS4.

In-short, it all depends if you believe Marlene's story that the surgery and Ellie's sacrifice is guaranteed to be used to make a cure. If you take this at face value, then yes, Joel's actions severely marginalize the human's future population expansion on the planet. I doubt eventual extinction is likely, because the events of Last Of Us take place 20 years after the initial outbreak, and there's still survivors and children are still being born.

However, I think Marlene was bullshitting Joel, telling him what he wanted to hear, or what she has to tell herself, to justify ending the life of a little girl for the chance of a cure. A chance.

Just look at the hospital that the last level of the game takes place. There's doctors, not any scientists, or a lab, or the means to transport the extracted and valuable tissue from Ellie to a lab. Even then, there's no documented cure for the insect strand of Cordyceps (the real-life version of the infection in The Last of Us).

And keep in mind, in reality, hundreds of millions of dollars are dedicated to cancer research for a cure, and many other diseases and sicknesses with no previous cures. Some treatments have been discovered, and very few cures.

But this is a videogame, not reality. So, it all depends if you believe Marlene's words. I, personally, don't believe her, and even if she believes it, I don't believe they have the means to synthesize a likely cure. There's merely a chance.

I'm going to have to get after you a bit, here. This is where a lack of training as a critical reader results in some clumsiness. One of the skills they teach you in close reading is the importance of titles. Titles, even the titles of essays, when well-wrought, are a lighthouse before you break ground into a new narrative.

The title of the game is "The Last of Us." This is a story about the end of the human race, not the dawn of a new age.

They told you that before you pushed the first button. Then they made you forget in your struggles. That's brilliance. If they change that in a sequel for profits they have, quite simply, betrayed and changed the original work. The original work doesn't need to be changed. It was perfect.

It actually is pretty important. It's the culmination of the entire story of these two characters. Joel can't lose his daughter again and he dooms humanity to save himself.

Ellie knows he's full of shit but chooses to believe him. When she says that everyone she's ever cared about has left her except for him is the exact reason she goes along with it. She knows what he did and why he did it.

They needed each other, fuck everything else.

Clearly we read the ending exactly the same. I don't disagree with this, but the reason I say that it isn't that important is because (unlike GSM) I saw this as plain and mostly a self-evident truth of the narrative; the important question is whether or not why they did these things (i.e. "needed each other, fuck everything else") makes them villains, in particular Joel, or if it makes them sympathetic anti-heroes.

In their pursuit of the grail the Fireflys had become just as callous, savage, and morally utilitarian as the rest of the world's survivors (after all, "survival" had become the new God, the new morality; the difference was these groups' valuation of their own survival as individuals rather than the species as a whole). They denied Ellie choice and full disclosure. Had the Fireflys, despite their noble intentions, become an example of the means becoming the end? If the "means" are to be so barbaric and dehumanizing, then what is the purpose of perpetuating them?

That is the fundamental philosophical question underlying the game. The masterful framing of this question, most powerfully through characterization (as you mentioned), is why I regard this story as the best I've ever encountered in videogame history.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

There's was absolutely nothing shown that forms a compelling indication she would leave. Dizzy is right. They conveyed an incredibly strong sense of conclusion panning over the place where they would settle. It was eminently clear that Ellie intended to stay with Joel.

I'm going to have to get after you a bit, here. This is where a lack of training as a critical reader results in some clumsiness. One of the skills they teach you in close reading is the importance of titles. Titles, even the titles of essays, when well-wrought, are a lighthouse before you break ground into a new narrative.

The title of the game is "The Last of Us." This is a story about the end of the human race, not the dawn of a new age.

Once again, that's your interpretation. 'Us' could mean the entire human race, or merely a small group of people. Unless there's been some confirmation from a high ranking person among the development team.

 

[Madmick]

Once again, that's your interpretation. 'Us' could mean the entire human race, or merely a small group of people. Unless there's been some confirmation from a high ranking person among the development team.

What small group of people was introduced to which "Us" could cogently refer? It's overwhelmingly clear that it is referring to the human race. This really isn't a controversial interpretation. If you want to retreat to a refuge of incredibly narrow uncertainty, be my guest. The rest of "us" can tell a duck when we see one.

I didn't need Rick's speech to know "The Walking Dead" was referring to, either. Close readers picked that up from the onset.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

What small group of people was introduced to which "Us" could cogently refer? It's overwhelmingly clear that it is referring to the human race. This really isn't a controversial interpretation. If you want to retreat to a refuge of incredibly narrow uncertainty, be my guest. The rest of "us" can tell a duck when we see one.

I didn't need Rick's speech to know "The Walking Dead" was referring to, either. Close readers picked that up from the onset.

Yup, that wasn't exactly needed. It took out the subtleness of the title's meaning.

I'm not saying your interpretation is controvercial, or even wrong, it's just as you said, an interpretation.

I never viewed the ending's consequences as to mean humanity's extinction. They've been surviving for two decades and still procreating. While they're never going to get back to the billions of the current population with the plague, there are, to quote The Matrix Reloaded, levels of survival we are willing to accept.

 

[Madmick]

Yup, that wasn't exactly needed. It took out the subtleness of the title's meaning.

I'm not saying your interpretation is controvercial, or even wrong, it's just as you said, an interpretation.

I never viewed the ending's consequences as to mean humanity's extinction. They've been surviving for two decades and still procreating. While they're never going to get back to the billions of the current population with the plague, there are, to quote The Matrix Reloaded, levels of survival we are willing to accept.

It's the only cogent interpretation. The title is "The Last of Us", not "The Middle of Us during a Really Rough Patch". It's so plainly evident that the only people who would hesitate to accept it are those who overlooked it. This wasn't a story about the human race overcoming or conquering. This was a story about the human race breathing its last breath: a dying wind filled with both fire and ice.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

It's the only cogent interpretation. The title is "The Last of Us", not "The Middle of Us during a Really Rough Patch". It's so plainly evident that the only people who would hesitate to accept it are those who overlooked it. This wasn't a story about the human race overcoming or conquering. This was a story about the human race breathing its last breath: a dying wind filled with both fire and ice.

Yet, it's getting a sequel.

 

[Madmick]

Yet, it's getting a sequel.

Concession achieved.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Concession achieved.

Concession by you?

Anyway, I don't mean this to turn into internet argument. I'm just discussing my opinion/interpretation of the ending of the game.

You have a different interpretation? Great. Let's discuss them because I'm interested in hearing other opinions, we all are members of an internet forum, right? But the 'My opinion is correct, and yours is wrong' arguments over a videogame?

 

[Madmick]

Concession by you?

Anyway, I don't mean this to turn into internet argument. I'm just discussing my opinion/interpretation of the ending of the game.

You have a different interpretation? Great. Let's discuss them because I'm interested in hearing other opinions, we all are members of an internet forum, right? But the 'My opinion is correct, and yours is wrong' arguments over a videogame?

No, your concession. You've been reduced to the defense, "But there's a sequel!" when that wasn't even yet conceived until years after the original was already finished as a standalone complete work. You've had to retreat outside the text to argue the text with retroactive context. You don't appear to see why that's an admission of defeat.

Or maybe you could argue a "different interpretation" that any would find likely or plausible. It simply doesn't exist. Contrary to a common misunderstanding, sometimes there are definite intentions in art. Some things are not meant to be vague or ambiguous. The title of TLOU was not.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

No, your concession. You've been reduced to the defense, "Well, there's a sequel" when that wasn't even yet conceived until years after the original was already finished as a standalone complete work. You've had to retreat outside the text to argue the text with retroactive context. You don't appear to see why that's an admission of defeat.

Or maybe you could argue a "different interpretation" that any would find likely or plausible. It simply doesn't exist. Contrary to what many believe, sometimes there are definite intentions in art.

Some things are not meant to be vague or ambiguous.

The title of TLOU was not.

In your interpretation. Any quotes from the development team to support this?

I'm not reduced to any defense, just trying to bring a stupid argument to a close. Maybe you care about this so much to type about it all night long, I'm not. I could dig up old discussions from two years ago about the discussion of the game's ending to support my points, but why bother.

Let me know how you feel after there's been a few more sequels in the series, just like there's been dozens of sequels of the Final Fantasy.

 

[Madmick]

In your interpretation. Any quotes from the development team to support this?

I'm not reduced to any defense, just trying to bring a stupid argument to a close. Maybe you care about this so much to type about it all night long, I'm not. I could dig up old discussions from two years ago about the discussion of the game's ending to support my points, but why bother.

Let me know how you feel after there's been a few more sequels in the series, just like there's been dozens of sequels of the Final Fantasy.

This has been the essence of my critique. Let me know when you find an "interpretation" for this supposedly multivalent title in those two-year-old arguments that isn't pitifully weak and invalid.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

This has been the essence of my critique. Let me know when you find an "interpretation" for this supposedly multivalent title in those two-year-old arguments that isn't pitifully weak and invalid.

Two year old discussion is still valid because the title is two years old.

Madmick, I respect you as a mod and a poster, but arguing with someone over something so petty is beneath your position. I've been respectful this entire discussion, while you're hellbent on arguing in the middle of the night... over a videogame.

You arguing...

Spoiler

Me, in response.

Spoiler

And they are your opinions, unless a member of the development team has commented that they're fact, which you have failed to link to.

Until then, have a good night.

 

[Madmick]

Two year old discussion is still valid because the title is two years old.

Nobody said it wasn't. But it won't materialize itself. Where is a cogent, alternative interpretation of the title?

Doesn't exist. Your ad lib doesn't interest me.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Nobody said it wasn't. But it won't materialize itself. Where is a cogent, alternative interpretation of the title?

Doesn't exist. Your ad lib doesn't interest me.

Concession achieved.

 

[Madmick]

Concession achieved.

LOL, I can taste the salt. I look forward to this mystical interpretation of the title that you refuse to offer. Just want to hear, like, an opinion, man.

Until then, yes, your concession has been accepted, and it stands.

 

[HereticBD]

This is going to be one hell of a hard game to write, without treading familiar ground. They could obviously do a smaller side story(like the founding of the Fireflies), but it's going to be tough to make it matter, when you've already done the whole "finding a cure" thing. Tough to care about characters in a world you know the outcome to. They could always have you finding an alternative cure, but again, that would be way too similar, regardless of how they went about it. I guess they could set it in a world that just deals with the situation, and continues on breeding and living life, with a cure simply not being an option. It's going be tough to get away from the "cure" angle though.

Perhaps Ellie finds out Joel lied to her years later. Word gets out about Ellie being the cure, and you have to fend for yourself against factions just wanting you to lay down your life for the good of humanity. I guess as long as Ellie is alive, there is still hope, and something to fight for. I guess in that situation though, it would be hard to explain the videogame logic of why people were shooting at you all the time.

I'm sure ND will figure something out.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

LOL, I can taste the salt. I look forward to this mystical interpretation of the title that you refuse to offer. Just want to hear, like, an opinion, man.

Until then, yes, your concession has been accepted, and it stands.

Only in your own mind, because the concession was never made.

You've stated your opinion that the title is important, and your interpretation of the title is what it is unless someone else posts an opinion that convinces you otherwise. At this point, you view the argument as more important than being right, so even if someone posts a detailed and logical opinion that most people would agree trumps yours, you're already emotionally invested in being right, or rather your ego as a mod won't let you be wrong. So I'm not going to bother convincing you your opinion is wrong, because it's just an opinion.

Btw, still waiting on any link to a development team quote that backs up your opinion, and until then, it's like your opinion, man.