The difference between wrestler vs BJJ mindset

jack36767 said:
Then you don't understand the mechanics or have a high understanding of the technique... and you specifically talked about what people of greater skill and smaller skill can do at 75% effort.. and the vast majority of the time the people who say things like this are hobbyists, primarily train with hobbyists and have limited to no actual decent much less high level wrestling training...
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Bayonet said:
I'm a Judoka, not a wrestler, but I can tell you that you certainly can do throws and takedowns at 75%, 50%, etc. while keeping proper form and throwing mechanics. If you couldn't dial down the intensity of your throws while maintaining technique, you'd run out of training partners too fast for anyone to get good.

If this is true for Judo, there's absolutely no reason it wouldn't be just as true for Wrestling. A hip throw is a hip throw.
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Yes you can totally do a throw at 50% speed and it will work against a fully resisting opponent.....
 
Gl0kta said:
Yes you can totally do a throw at 50% speed and it will work against a fully resisting opponent.....
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If the skill disparity is there... yes. The same way a bjj move at 50% executed with proper mechanics will work.. on someone of lesser skill.. you won't be able to do it at 50% against an opponent of equal skill and size. I've trained both extensively. Which you obviously haven't
 
jack36767 said:
If the skill disparity is there... yes. The same way a bjj move at 50% executed with proper mechanics will work.. on someone of lesser skill.. you won't be able to do it at 50% against an opponent of equal skill and size. I've trained both extensively. Which you obviously haven't
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What throws work against someone of a similar weight with a clue when going at half speed? Am curious.
 
Gl0kta said:
What throws work against someone of a similar weight with a clue when going at half speed? Am curious.
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Jesus Christ you keep ignoring the most important thing I've talked about skill disparity as in if you are going against someone of both equal size and skill.. and going full bore live, you won't be able to execute that sissor sweep going at 50%, it will require leverage, timing, technique and excuting it at full speed...

High level wrestlers and wrestling coaches do what you're talking about all the freaking time in practice against less skilled or younger wrestlers going half speed and pressure and doing what you talk about higher belts doing in the room. In fact I'd be willing to bet money that even if you and I were commensurate on the ground.. I'd be able to bet almost anything that I wanted on the feet going 50% even if you outweighed me by 30 lbs, because on the feet you're likely at best a blue belt and I'm a brown or black belt level depending..

And again.. look at how high level bjj gyms or competitors actually train. Even if they can do that technique at 50% on you.. when going all out against other black belts they aren't doing it at 50% with just technique.. they're executing with both technique and all out speed. Top level Judo is the exact same way...


Not to mention the whole idea people who start out young in bjj not being as aggressive or whatnot is bogus when you actually look at people like the Mendes brothers

I know I know, that goes against the party line that is used to get most hobbyists to spend money
 
Hahaha. Can guarantee op gas never actually stepped into a real wrestling practice. And yes a double at 75% if done correctly will put a person on their ass regardless. Proper footwork deep penetration and drive will constantly equal success. Look at GSP against opponents with real training and knowledge of what his intentions are
 
What people are missing is this:

Timeline.

You start wrestling and the pressure is on to make something for yourself by the end of your senior year of HS. If you're decent then you get another 4 years, if you're good you can try for Olympic freestyle or Greco. That's a hell of a lot of pressure to succeed in an art where competition wins are the most important thing. There is no belt or measure of your skill, only your win/loss record. There are few hobbyists in wrestling.

Then there's Judo. A sport most people in the states do out of love be it teaching or participating. Cost is low, and it's pretty widespred for all ages. You compete and train hard from young teens through your kid thirties, then you spend more time training others than training hard because of the damage you took going hard for 20 years....that's not even counting if you wrestled in HS or college and found judo to fill your love of grappling competitions when you got out.

Then BJJ. Beautiful art....also the most business oriented. Some schools handicap their own students with the whole ego, technique>strength, flow mindset in order to reduce student frustration and keep them coming back. BUT development is scaled to a longer timeline than the others, so there is less pressure to succeed quickly.
 
Thrawn33 said:
What people are missing is this:

Timeline.

You start wrestling and the pressure is on to make something for yourself by the end of your senior year of HS. If you're decent then you get another 4 years, if you're good you can try for Olympic freestyle or Greco. That's a hell of a lot of pressure to succeed in an art where competition wins are the most important thing. There is no belt or measure of your skill, only your win/loss record. There are few hobbyists in wrestling.

Then there's Judo. A sport most people in the states do out of love be it teaching or participating. Cost is low, and it's pretty widespred for all ages. You compete and train hard from young teens through your kid thirties, then you spend more time training others than training hard because of the damage you took going hard for 20 years....that's not even counting if you wrestled in HS or college and found judo to fill your love of grappling competitions when you got out.

Then BJJ. Beautiful art....also the most business oriented. Some schools handicap their own students with the whole ego, technique>strength, flow mindset in order to reduce student frustration and keep them coming back. BUT development is scaled to a longer timeline than the others, so there is less pressure to succeed quickly.
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This, even with coaches who focus more on the kids than winning in high school it's done from the framework of I have 4. Years to develop this person
 
Gl0kta said:
You didn't read what I typed... go for a takedown with 75% commitment no workey, go for a scissor sweep at 75% workey. The level of technique with either is irrelevant, ground fighting in general offers greater positional dominance and potential for maintaining ... again nothing to do with the level technique it's the mechanics of the position.
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Hum.

I did couple classes of wrestling.

They spar 50% intensity as a warmup and they still score takedown.
 
jack36767 said:
If the skill disparity is there... yes. The same way a bjj move at 50% executed with proper mechanics will work.. on someone of lesser skill.. you won't be able to do it at 50% against an opponent of equal skill and size. I've trained both extensively. Which you obviously haven't
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You can do a lot of bjj moves very slowly especially if you are using pressure and strength to do them.
 
yetanother said:
You can do a lot of bjj moves very slowly especially if you are using pressure and strength to do them.
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you've never felt my front headlock.. :D, or a college wrestlers mat work in a wrestling context. lol. My point being the difference in mentality comes from demographic, financial factors, time allotted to train/compete, and how to keep casuals coming back more than the usual narrative
 
Russky said:
Judo gi act as a sling magnifying power. Wrestlers cannot use their arms much in the throw.
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That's neither here nor there. I was using my Judo throwing experience to corroborate what people have reported as their wrestling throwing experience... the fact that, any person who has reached competence at a given skill (in this case, throws/takedowns) can still pull them off while scaling the intensity up or down.

If a person thinks that the only way to take someone down is to full on hulk-smash them into the dirt, it's a sure sign they don't have much experience with stand up grappling.
 
Gl0kta said:
Yes you can totally do a throw at 50% speed and it will work against a fully resisting opponent.....
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Yes. You can. If there's enough skill disparity the thrower can easily get the balance, get the position, and finish the technique. If this wasn't true, Judo and Wrestling coaches would be crippling newbies constantly, and randori/sparring at anything less than competition intensity wouldn't be possible.

Here's some randori videos of high level Judoka. I can guarantee you that, while the people they're up against are putting a lot in, these guys are going a lot less than 100%. skill matters.

Ilias Iliadis


Travis Stevens


Genta Mikami


Gl0kta said:
What throws work against someone of a similar weight with a clue when going at half speed? Am curious.
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All of them.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't have much experience in any throwing focused grappling style, do you?
 
Bayonet said:
Yes. You can. If there's enough skill disparity the thrower can easily get the balance, get the position, and finish the technique. If this wasn't true, Judo and Wrestling coaches would be crippling newbies constantly, and randori/sparring at anything less than competition intensity wouldn't be possible.

Here's some randori videos of high level Judoka. I can guarantee you that, while the people they're up against are putting a lot in, these guys are going a lot less than 100%. skill matters.

Ilias Iliadis


Travis Stevens


Genta Mikami




All of them.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't have much experience in any throwing focused grappling style, do you?
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Similar video.

Respect to Xande for putting this up.

 
The biggest differences I have noticed is that when you score on someone at wrestling practice or in a match, there is an immediate and dire sense to get those points back. I cant count how many times I have seen someone put their fist through the wall at wrestling because someone got the better of them and they couldnt get the points back. This would get you thrown out of most BJJ gyms.

The other thing I have noticed is that almost all BJJ practices, the coach holds your hand the whole time. He will never just say "drill for an hour", he will give you specific things to drill and teach them each time instead of letting the athletes do what they want, which is a common mindset of the coach in wrestling.
 
Dirty Holt said:
The biggest differences I have noticed is that when you score on someone at wrestling practice or in a match, there is an immediate and dire sense to get those points back. I cant count how many times I have seen someone put their fist through the wall at wrestling because someone got the better of them and they couldnt get the points back. This would get you thrown out of most BJJ gyms.

The other thing I have noticed is that almost all BJJ practices, the coach holds your hand the whole time. He will never just say "drill for an hour", he will give you specific things to drill and teach them each time instead of letting the athletes do what they want, which is a common mindset of the coach in wrestling.
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When you are working with younger/middle school kids do you focus on high rep good drilling or try to get them play wrestling/sparring as soon as you think they can handle it?
 
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