The 50 Greatest PW's of All Time - Larry Matysik

[DM1982]

He was nothing more than a midcarder in WCW though and had trouble drawing as a heel.

Austin (and Vince) saved WWF from losing the Monday night wars, and was the biggest revenue generator (along with Hulkster); this, and prolly some other things, put him above Rock.

 

[flowwiththego]

List from John Molinaro, Dave Meltzer and Jeff Marek, 2002 book:



1. Ric Flair
2. Lou Thesz
3. Rikidozan
4. Antonio Inoki
5. Hulk Hogan
6. Andre the Giant
7. El Santo
8. Giant Baba
9. Steve Austin
10. Buddy Rogers
11. Frank Gotch
12. Jim Londos
13. Ed Lewis
14. Stan Hansen
15. Bruno Sammartino
16. The Rock
17. Goregous George
18. Bruiser Brody
19. Riki Choshu
20. Mitsuharu Misawa
21. Verne Gagne
22. Jumbo Tsuruta
23. Terry Funk
24. Mil Mascaras
25. Bret Hart
26. Dory Funk Jr.
27. Tiger Mask
28. Blue Demon
29. Perro Aguayo
30. Nick Bockwinkel
31. Dusty Rhodes
32. Johnny Valentine
33. Freddie Blassie
34. Vader
35. George Hackenschmidt
36. Jushin Liger
37. Toshiaki Kawada
38. Keiji Muto
39. Jack Brisco
40. Harley Race
41. El Hijo del Santo
42. Tatsumi Fujinami
43. Danny Hodge
44. Akira Maeda
45. Chigusa Nagayo
46. Ricky Steamboat
47. Shawn Michaels
48. Shinya Hashimoto
49. Ray Stevens
50. Randy Savage
51. Gene Kiniski
52. Nobuhiko Takada
53. Mick Foley
54. Genichiro Tenryu
55. The Crusher
56. Dick the Bruiser
57. Canek
58. Antonio Rocca
59. The Sheik
60. Den Leo Jonathon
61. Dynamite Kid
62. The Undertaker
63. El Solitario
64. Billy Graham
65. Jerry Lawler
66. Roddy Piper
67. Ultimo Dragon
68. Billy Robinson
69. Jaguar Yokota
70. Lioness Asuka
71. Bobo Brazil
72. Karl Gotch
73. Bert Assirati
74. Salvador Gori Guerrero
75. Bill Longson
76. Killer Kowalski
77. Mildred Burke
78. Abdullah the Butcher
79. The Destroyer
80. Atsushi Onita
81. Ted Dibiase
82. Earl McCready
83. Pat O'Connor
84. Fritz Von Erich
85. Wahoo McDaniel
86. Billy Watson
87. Leroy McGuirk
88. Mad Dog Vachon
89. Yvon Robert
90. Bronko Nagurski
91. Dos Caras
92. Edouard Carpentier
93. Rayo de Jalisco
94. Stanislaus Zbysko
95. Sting
96. Pat Patterson
97. Masahiro Chono
98. Dara Singh
99. Jess Ventura
100. Eddie Graham

 

[My Spot]

Shitty overseas indy fed "stars" like Inoki and Rikidozan above Hogan?

 

[Pliny Pete]

I know you're an unhappy little man; based on this bitchmade response from you - so quick to the homosexual proclivities - very telling.

And yeah, I know Larry Matysik knows more about PW than you; you're a little turd who is 10,000 messages deep in 2 years on Sherdog - get a life.

If hes so smart why'd he go outta business in less than a year?
Herb Abrams was more successful than this clown
He knows as much about rasslin as you know about pussy

 

[GSPSAKU]

As for the Cena question, Matysik first considered not putting Cena in at all; but reconsidered and did so. Selling power alone is not enough to get you to top of his list - and you have to take into account whether Cena would be so effective in, for example, the pre-televised, shoot era. Things like that. I think his place is fair.

The hardest thing about ranking is when people try to rank by comparing different eras which is absurd. To say Cena wouldn't be effective in the pre-televised, shoot era is absolutely BS simply because Cena didn't grow up nor wrestle in that era. Would he beat a Lou Thesz, Strangler Lewis, Gotch or Hackenschmidt in a straight up shoot? No, but if that's the case, neither would guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, or Steve Austin who all have absolutely no background in shooting. Also, if we do the same to a Lou Thesz, Strangler Lewis, Hackenschmidt or Gotch and put them on TV today, I'd be willing to go as far as to say they might not be nothing more than mid-carders at best.

Larry was a St. Louis/Sam Muchnick product and the bias due to Sam Muchnik is strong and I say that as a friend of Sam's nephew, Irv who I have had continued correspondence with for the past 10 years. Irv Muchnick and I actually corresponded alot over the past two years and numerous times over the phone since the Snuka/Argentino case finally picked up some steam.

Sam Muchnick, for those who don't know, was a long time strong hold of the NWA and was its President on and off for a total of around 25 years hence the strong dislike for the WWWF/WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon. Anyone who was with the NWA was glad to see Vince Sr get back aboard the NWA umbrella circa 1964-1965 only to see it fall back apart. And then once Vince Jr took over, that was the nail in the coffin for the NWA and alot of the old timers absolutely hated Vince Jr for it, and maybe rightfully so but that has caused alot of the old timers, and anyone who had close ties to the old timers (NWA guys), have a great disgust for Vince Jr and, to a lesser degree, Vince Sr. Also, Larry bought Sam Muchnick out later as well taking over the St. Louis territory.

Having not read the book, I'm willing to bet this book came out after the WWE's 50 Greatest List and I'm willing to bet anything that Matysik went after the WWE and their list, or compared his list to theirs. That's the problem is guys don't try to build these lists objectively and without biases, they build their lists with biases in mind. Having read Larry's two other books, I have a fairly good understanding of they type of writer he is and he's a great historian with great knowledge but again, the good old days seem to be better.

One last thing, I have Thesz in my top 5 all time (NA wrestlers), I don't have Strangler Lewis in my top 5 but definitely in my top 25, maybe top 20, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would have Strangler Lewis #3 and I'm a Wisconsin guy. To those that don't know, here's another history lesson:

Lou Thesz is very deserving of a #1, I have no qualms with anyone who puts Thesz at number one for American wrestling GOATs. These lists are are fairly subjective and legit arguments could be made for a guy like Thesz, Sammartino, Hogan and maybe even possibly Flair and even Austin but that would mean those 5 guys are likely to take the top 5 spots which leads me to...

Ed "Strangler" Lewis. The man was a legit stud, stretcher and hooker extraordinaire. He knew how to shoot and hooking was his expertise so he was one those guys who knew his stuff, and in his day, he needed it. This is back in the 20s-40s when wrestling was a work but shoots were very common especially when one felt disrespected either by their oppenent or the promoter they were working for, or the territory they were visiting. So you can't take any of that away from him and as I stated, I'd have him top 25. Anyhow, outside of his actual shooting and hooking ability, Strangler Lewis was born and raised in a small town in WI and spent most of his time wrestling in Midwest and when Sam Munchnick decided to start his own little promotion after the turn of World War 2, he reached out to Strangler Lewis to help him draw his crowds since Lewis was a big name at the time, especially in the Midwest.

That, to me, is why I believe Larry has Strangler Lewis in at #3; his ties to Sam Munchnick and the St. Louis territory. And of course, Lou Thesz is Strangler Lewis's protege and the first big star of St. Louis.

Much like the WWE, it's hard to take Larry's list too serious simply because he put "his guys" at the top of the ballot. Thesz is as deserving as anyone but there's no way Strangler Lewis is ahead of a bunch of other guys. Even if we go strictly on ability to shoot/grapple, which is apparently weighed heavily on Larry's list, that means Lesnar's #1.

Overall, it's not a bad list at all, and no matter who made the list, it's going to be subjective but at least try to remove biases is all I'm saying. Bret Hart is my favorite wrestler of all time but there's no way in hell I could legitimately put him simply because of my own personal bias.

 

[My Spot]

If hes so smart why'd he go outta business in less than a year?
Herb Abrams was more successful than this clown
He knows as much about rasslin as you know about pussy

You just grabbed him right by the pussy.

 

[My Spot]

The hardest thing about ranking is when people try to rank by comparing different eras which is absurd. To say Cena wouldn't be effective in the pre-televised, shoot era is absolutely BS simply because Cena didn't grow up nor wrestle in that era. Would he beat a Lou Thesz, Strangler Lewis, Gotch or Hackenschmidt in a straight up shoot? No, but if that's the case, neither would guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, or Steve Austin who all have absolutely no background in shooting. Also, if we do the same to a Lou Thesz, Strangler Lewis, Hackenschmidt or Gotch and put them on TV today, I'd be willing to go as far as to say they might not be nothing more than mid-carders at best.

Larry was a St. Louis/Sam Munchnik product and the bias due to Sam Munchnik is strong and I say that as a friend of Sam's son, Irv who I have had continued correspondence with for the past 10 years. Sam, for those who don't know, was a long time strong hold of the NWA and was its President on and off for a total of around 25 years hence the strong dislike for the WWWF/WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon. Anyone who was with the NWA was glad to see Vince Sr get back aboard the NWA umbrella circa 1964-1965 only to see it fall back apart. And then once Vince Jr took over, that was the nail in the coffin for the NWA and alot of the old timers absolutely hated Vince Jr for it, and maybe rightfully so but that has caused alot of the old timers, and anyone who had close ties to the old timers (NWA guys), have a great disgust for Vince Jr and, to a lesser degree, Vince Sr.

Having not read the book, I'm willing to bet this book came out after the WWE's 50 Greatest List and I'm willing to bet anything that Matysik went after the WWE and their list, or compared his list to theirs. That's the problem is guys don't try to build these lists objectively and without biases, they build their lists with biases in mind. Having read Larry's two other books, I have a fairly good understanding of they type of writer he is and he's a great historian with great knowledge but again, the good old days seem to be better.

One last thing, I have Thesz in my top 5 all time (NA wrestlers), I don't have Strangler Lewis in my top 5 but definitely in my top 25, maybe top 20, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would have Strangler Lewis #3 and I'm a Wisconsin guy. To those that don't know, here's another history lesson:

Lou Thesz is very deserving of a #1, I have no qualms with anyone who puts Thesz at number one for American wrestling GOATs. These lists are are fairly subjective and legit arguments could be made for a guy like Thesz, Sammartino, Hogan and maybe even possibly Flair and even Austin but that would mean those 5 guys are likely to take the top 5 spots which leads me to...

Ed "Strangler" Lewis. The man was a legit stud, stretcher and hooker extraordinaire. He knew how to shoot and hooking was his expertise so he was one those guys who knew his stuff, and in his day, he needed it. This is back in the 20s-40s when wrestling was a work but shoots were very common especially when one felt disrespected either by their oppenent or the promoter they were working for, or the territory they were visiting. So you can't take any of that away from him and as I stated, I'd have him top 25. Anyhow, outside of his actual shooting and hooking ability, Strangler Lewis was born and raised in a small town in WI and spent most of his time wrestling in Midwest and when Sam Munchnick decided to start his own little promotion after the turn of World War 2, he reached out to Strangler Lewis to help him draw his crowds since Lewis was a big name at the time, especially in the Midwest.

That, to me, is why I believe Larry has Strangler Lewis in at #3; his ties to Sam Munchnick and the St. Louis territory. And of course, Lou Thesz is Strangler Lewis's protege and the first big star of St. Louis.

Much like the WWE, it's hard to take Larry's list too serious simply because he put "his guys" at the top of the ballot. Thesz is as deserving as anyone but there's no way Strangler Lewis is ahead of a bunch of other guys. Even if we go strictly on ability to shoot/grapple, which is apparently weighed heavily on Larry's list, that means Lesnar's #1.

Overall, it's not a bad list at all, and no matter who made the list, it's going to be subjective but at least try to remove biases is all I'm saying. Bret Hart is my favorite wrestler of all time but there's no way in hell I could legitimately put him simply because of my own personal bias.

Matysik would have Cena top 5 if he'd spent years wrestling in bowling alleys and high school gyms around St Louis.

 

[GSPSAKU]

There's a list that Meltzer and a few others put out around 2000 that was very respectable and hard to argue with since they incorporated every aspect of pro wrestling into it although I have always found it difficult to place Flair at #1 ahead of Hogan or Thesz if we are talking strictly American PW but I can definitely understand it and cannot say he does not belong because he does.

Again, the list my Larry isn't bad, but it's not fantastic.


EDIT: Flow posted said list.

PS, Flow, how old is your boy now? Is he, what, 8 or 9 now?

PSS, DM1982, if you are in any way, shape, or form, related to Larry Matysik, I hope he is doing better these days although I doubt it. I know he's in a bad way and has had back/nerve issues for quite a few years now.

 

[DM1982]

The hardest thing about ranking is when people try to rank by comparing different eras which is absurd. To say Cena wouldn't be effective in the pre-televised, shoot era is absolutely BS simply because Cena didn't grow up nor wrestle in that era. Would he beat a Lou Thesz, Strangler Lewis, Gotch or Hackenschmidt in a straight up shoot? No, but if that's the case, neither would guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, or Steve Austin who all have absolutely no background in shooting. Also, if we do the same to a Lou Thesz, Strangler Lewis, Hackenschmidt or Gotch and put them on TV today, I'd be willing to go as far as to say they might not be nothing more than mid-carders at best.

Larry was a St. Louis/Sam Muchnick product and the bias due to Sam Muchnik is strong and I say that as a friend of Sam's nephew, Irv who I have had continued correspondence with for the past 10 years. Irv Muchnick and I actually corresponded alot over the past two years and numerous times over the phone since the Snuka/Argentino case finally picked up some steam.

Sam Muchnick, for those who don't know, was a long time strong hold of the NWA and was its President on and off for a total of around 25 years hence the strong dislike for the WWWF/WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon. Anyone who was with the NWA was glad to see Vince Sr get back aboard the NWA umbrella circa 1964-1965 only to see it fall back apart. And then once Vince Jr took over, that was the nail in the coffin for the NWA and alot of the old timers absolutely hated Vince Jr for it, and maybe rightfully so but that has caused alot of the old timers, and anyone who had close ties to the old timers (NWA guys), have a great disgust for Vince Jr and, to a lesser degree, Vince Sr. Also, Larry bought Sam Muchnick out later as well taking over the St. Louis territory.

Having not read the book, I'm willing to bet this book came out after the WWE's 50 Greatest List and I'm willing to bet anything that Matysik went after the WWE and their list, or compared his list to theirs. That's the problem is guys don't try to build these lists objectively and without biases, they build their lists with biases in mind. Having read Larry's two other books, I have a fairly good understanding of they type of writer he is and he's a great historian with great knowledge but again, the good old days seem to be better.

One last thing, I have Thesz in my top 5 all time (NA wrestlers), I don't have Strangler Lewis in my top 5 but definitely in my top 25, maybe top 20, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would have Strangler Lewis #3 and I'm a Wisconsin guy. To those that don't know, here's another history lesson:

Lou Thesz is very deserving of a #1, I have no qualms with anyone who puts Thesz at number one for American wrestling GOATs. These lists are are fairly subjective and legit arguments could be made for a guy like Thesz, Sammartino, Hogan and maybe even possibly Flair and even Austin but that would mean those 5 guys are likely to take the top 5 spots which leads me to...

Ed "Strangler" Lewis. The man was a legit stud, stretcher and hooker extraordinaire. He knew how to shoot and hooking was his expertise so he was one those guys who knew his stuff, and in his day, he needed it. This is back in the 20s-40s when wrestling was a work but shoots were very common especially when one felt disrespected either by their oppenent or the promoter they were working for, or the territory they were visiting. So you can't take any of that away from him and as I stated, I'd have him top 25. Anyhow, outside of his actual shooting and hooking ability, Strangler Lewis was born and raised in a small town in WI and spent most of his time wrestling in Midwest and when Sam Munchnick decided to start his own little promotion after the turn of World War 2, he reached out to Strangler Lewis to help him draw his crowds since Lewis was a big name at the time, especially in the Midwest.

That, to me, is why I believe Larry has Strangler Lewis in at #3; his ties to Sam Munchnick and the St. Louis territory. And of course, Lou Thesz is Strangler Lewis's protege and the first big star of St. Louis.

Much like the WWE, it's hard to take Larry's list too serious simply because he put "his guys" at the top of the ballot. Thesz is as deserving as anyone but there's no way Strangler Lewis is ahead of a bunch of other guys. Even if we go strictly on ability to shoot/grapple, which is apparently weighed heavily on Larry's list, that means Lesnar's #1.

Overall, it's not a bad list at all, and no matter who made the list, it's going to be subjective but at least try to remove biases is all I'm saying. Bret Hart is my favorite wrestler of all time but there's no way in hell I could legitimately put him simply because of my own personal bias.

That's a hell of a post.

If you read my OP, you see I question the integrity of the list also. Generally feeling he's put too many old schoolers in and too high up.

But once again, I challenge someone to find anyone who has done this with all the effort and expertise of Matysik himself, or to do one in future.

In the book, he himself addresses the notion that he is just a mark for Munchnik and attempts to debunk it, so there is that.

 

[DM1982]

List from John Molinaro, Dave Meltzer and Jeff Marek, 2002 book:



1. Ric Flair
2. Lou Thesz
3. Rikidozan
4. Antonio Inoki
5. Hulk Hogan
6. Andre the Giant
7. El Santo
8. Giant Baba
9. Steve Austin
10. Buddy Rogers
11. Frank Gotch
12. Jim Londos
13. Ed Lewis
14. Stan Hansen
15. Bruno Sammartino
16. The Rock
17. Goregous George
18. Bruiser Brody
19. Riki Choshu
20. Mitsuharu Misawa
21. Verne Gagne
22. Jumbo Tsuruta
23. Terry Funk
24. Mil Mascaras
25. Bret Hart
26. Dory Funk Jr.
27. Tiger Mask
28. Blue Demon
29. Perro Aguayo
30. Nick Bockwinkel
31. Dusty Rhodes
32. Johnny Valentine
33. Freddie Blassie
34. Vader
35. George Hackenschmidt
36. Jushin Liger
37. Toshiaki Kawada
38. Keiji Muto
39. Jack Brisco
40. Harley Race
41. El Hijo del Santo
42. Tatsumi Fujinami
43. Danny Hodge
44. Akira Maeda
45. Chigusa Nagayo
46. Ricky Steamboat
47. Shawn Michaels
48. Shinya Hashimoto
49. Ray Stevens
50. Randy Savage
51. Gene Kiniski
52. Nobuhiko Takada
53. Mick Foley
54. Genichiro Tenryu
55. The Crusher
56. Dick the Bruiser
57. Canek
58. Antonio Rocca
59. The Sheik
60. Den Leo Jonathon
61. Dynamite Kid
62. The Undertaker
63. El Solitario
64. Billy Graham
65. Jerry Lawler
66. Roddy Piper
67. Ultimo Dragon
68. Billy Robinson
69. Jaguar Yokota
70. Lioness Asuka
71. Bobo Brazil
72. Karl Gotch
73. Bert Assirati
74. Salvador Gori Guerrero
75. Bill Longson
76. Killer Kowalski
77. Mildred Burke
78. Abdullah the Butcher
79. The Destroyer
80. Atsushi Onita
81. Ted Dibiase
82. Earl McCready
83. Pat O'Connor
84. Fritz Von Erich
85. Wahoo McDaniel
86. Billy Watson
87. Leroy McGuirk
88. Mad Dog Vachon
89. Yvon Robert
90. Bronko Nagurski
91. Dos Caras
92. Edouard Carpentier
93. Rayo de Jalisco
94. Stanislaus Zbysko
95. Sting
96. Pat Patterson
97. Masahiro Chono
98. Dara Singh
99. Jess Ventura
100. Eddie Graham

Not a bad list; but some iffy names.

Still go with Matysik.

 

[HeavyHands20]

Its upsetting when you see these lists over the years, and Arn Anderson's name doesn't come up. That dude had it all. Charisma, in ring talent through the roof, mic skills, and he could masterfully portray a heel or face role.

Cheers to "Double A", "The Enforcer"

 

[Wrath of Foamy]

Rey Mysterio over HHH?

 

[GSPSAKU]

Its upsetting when you see these lists over the years, and Arn Anderson's name doesn't come up. That dude had it all. Charisma, in ring talent through the roof, mic skills, and he could masterfully portray a heel or face role.

Cheers to "Double A", "The Enforcer"

AA doesn't belong on any GOAT top 50 PW list IF, and that's the most important word, we include draw, mainstream status, impact/historical significance, and professional achievements and I say that with the utmost respect.

Same reason why a guy like Mr. Perfect or Jake Roberts is often off these top 50 lists and even some top 100 lists. AA was never the top guy in any promotion he was ever a part of, was never the #2 or even #3 guy at any given point and time in his ENTIRE career. That's why it's impossible to argue a case for AA. He was great all around but never made it close to the top of the mountain, was never proven as a draw (never given the chance but still), and has little name value. I can't fathom a legitimate argument, if we include things like drawing ability, mainstream status, impact/historical significance, and professional achievement.

If a list is compiled based simply on actual in-ring ability, psychology, and mic work and we do not give any consideration to one's ability to draw, mainstream status, nor professional achievements, then guys like AA, Perfect, and Jake Roberts deserve to be on anyone's top 50 list especially if it's a NA or US only list.

Rey Mysterio over HHH?

That's the odd thing is because it's a WWE list and HHH obviously oversees it nearly everything but that's a complicated one from my vantage point.

At first glance, there's no way Mysterio should be above and ahead of HHH. HHH had more titles, more time at the top, and over the length of their career, drew more money (wrestling Rock/Austin/Cena) definitely helps. But Mysterio has a great trump card and that's impact on wrestling and significance as a whole.

No Mexican wrestler was really ever over or able to draw much money for at all in the US outside of maybe Mil Mascaras for brief stints in the 70s and 80s. No Mexican wrestler was able to make the impact Rey did and Rey established Lucha Libre in the US. Eddie Guerrero had better matches (imo), greater mic work (by a mile) but it was Rey Mysterio Jr that established the Lucha Libre style in the US. Rey's impact as far as a small (very small) man in the big world of WCW and WWF/E is astronomical and I'd say his importance to wrestling history, especially here in the US, is every bit as much as Hulk Hogan in the 80s, Lou Thesz in the 50s/60s/70s, Rikidozan to Japanese wrestling etc. No other Mexican wrestler has been able to influence the US quite like Rey Mysterio. He casts arguably the largest shadow over American history in terms of a Mexican wrestler. For that alone, it gives Mystero a decent argument as to why he should be ranked ahead of a HHH.

With that said, in my own rankings, I do not have Mysterio over HHH but I can understand and get why someone would have it that way. It all depends on the perspective and what the compiler and viewer/reader deems more or less important, respectively.

 

[DM1982]

AA doesn't belong on any GOAT top 50 PW list IF, and that's the most important word, we include draw, mainstream status, impact/historical significance, and professional achievements and I say that with the utmost respect.

Same reason why a guy like Mr. Perfect or Jake Roberts is often off these top 50 lists and even some top 100 lists. AA was never the top guy in any promotion he was ever a part of, was never the #2 or even #3 guy at any given point and time in his ENTIRE career. That's why it's impossible to argue a case for AA. He was great all around but never made it close to the top of the mountain, was never proven as a draw (never given the chance but still), and has little name value. I can't fathom a legitimate argument, if we include things like drawing ability, mainstream status, impact/historical significance, and professional achievement.

If a list is compiled based simply on actual in-ring ability, psychology, and mic work and we do not give any consideration to one's ability to draw, mainstream status, nor professional achievements, then guys like AA, Perfect, and Jake Roberts deserve to be on anyone's top 50 list especially if it's a NA or US only list.



That's the odd thing is because it's a WWE list and HHH obviously oversees it nearly everything but that's a complicated one from my vantage point.

At first glance, there's no way Mysterio should be above and ahead of HHH. HHH had more titles, more time at the top, and over the length of their career, drew more money (wrestling Rock/Austin/Cena) definitely helps. But Mysterio has a great trump card and that's impact on wrestling and significance as a whole.

No Mexican wrestler was really ever over or able to draw much money for at all in the US outside of maybe Mil Mascaras for brief stints in the 70s and 80s. No Mexican wrestler was able to make the impact Rey did and Rey established Lucha Libre in the US. Eddie Guerrero had better matches (imo), greater mic work (by a mile) but it was Rey Mysterio Jr that established the Lucha Libre style in the US. Rey's impact as far as a small (very small) man in the big world of WCW and WWF/E is astronomical and I'd say his importance to wrestling history, especially here in the US, is every bit as much as Hulk Hogan in the 80s, Lou Thesz in the 50s/60s/70s, Rikidozan to Japanese wrestling etc. No other Mexican wrestler has been able to influence the US quite like Rey Mysterio. He casts arguably the largest shadow over American history in terms of a Mexican wrestler. For that alone, it gives Mystero a decent argument as to why he should be ranked ahead of a HHH.

With that said, in my own rankings, I do not have Mysterio over HHH but I can understand and get why someone would have it that way. It all depends on the perspective and what the compiler and viewer/reader deems more or less important, respectively.

Trips gets criminally underrated sometimes; as much as he is/has been a cunt, he's definitely a GOAT - his highlights are immense, but recently think back to how over he put DBryan; he worked like a true master in the ring and on the mic.

Absolutely/positively > Rey Rey

 

[DM1982]

There's a list that Meltzer and a few others put out around 2000 that was very respectable and hard to argue with since they incorporated every aspect of pro wrestling into it although I have always found it difficult to place Flair at #1 ahead of Hogan or Thesz if we are talking strictly American PW but I can definitely understand it and cannot say he does not belong because he does.

Again, the list my Larry isn't bad, but it's not fantastic.


EDIT: Flow posted said list.

PS, Flow, how old is your boy now? Is he, what, 8 or 9 now?

PSS, DM1982, if you are in any way, shape, or form, related to Larry Matysik, I hope he is doing better these days although I doubt it. I know he's in a bad way and has had back/nerve issues for quite a few years now.

In no way related to Larry M; I read his book, dude, as stated in the OP - you seem to give more of a shit about him than I do, I commend you - I just think his book is good.

I think Matysik particularly noted that Hogan's repertoire, although hugely successful, was limited; indeed he notes that Flair's repertoire was also slightly unchanged, but certainly wider than Hogan's. I think Flair over Hogan is fair enough.

But what do I know, I'm gutted the Ultimate Warrior isn't in there; after all, he was the only guy deemed over enough to oust Hogan on his original WM run.

(Not serious)

 

[gspieler]

Trips gets criminally underrated sometimes; as much as he is/has been a cunt, he's definitely a GOAT - his highlights are immense, but recently think back to how over he put DBryan; he worked like a true master in the ring and on the mic.

Absolutely/positively > Rey Rey

DB got himself over. If anything, Trips tried to bury him, with having him job to guys like Sheamus in 18 seconds at Mania. DB was so over with smarks, though, that eventually they finally had to acknowledge he was the biggest draw on the roster.

 

[DM1982]

DB got himself over. If anything, Trips tried to bury him, with having him job to guys like Sheamus in 18 seconds at Mania. DB was so over with smarks, though, that eventually they finally had to acknowledge he was the biggest draw on the roster.

No, I'm talking about the build up to Wrestlemania 30; where Trips sold Bryan masterfully.

Not disparaging Bryan, he's great but Trips deserves the recognition at having improved further still as a worker into his 40s.

 

[gspieler]

No, I'm talking about the build up to Wrestlemania 30; where Trips sold Bryan masterfully.

Not disparaging Bryan, he's great but Trips deserves the recognition at having improved further still as a worker into his 40s.

That's one match. You clearly implied Trips was responsible for DB getting over. That had already been the case for years. Trips was pretty much the last one who got the message. He deserves zero credit for getting DB over. Let alone that DB wasn't even originally booked to win that match, but it was brought about largely be demand of the fans.

And Trips has always been a good worker. Not great, but good. Same with his mic work, and his overall presence. His longevity is pretty incredible. Although when you work a PT schedule for the second half of your career, it's probably a little more manageable.

 

[DM1982]

That's one match. You clearly implied Trips was responsible for DB getting over. That had already been the case for years. Trips was pretty much the last one who got the message. He deserves zero credit for getting DB over. Let alone that DB wasn't even originally booked to win that match, but it was brought about largely be demand of the fans.

And Trips has always been a good worker. Not great, but good. Same with his mic work, and his overall presence. His longevity is pretty incredible. Although when you work a PT schedule for the second half of your career, it's probably a little more manageable.

I did not say got Bryan over; I said put him over, as in sold his offense and the Yes movement masterfully.

I'm giving him credit for his performance not Bryans. Semantics bro; reading comprehension that shit.

Sounds like we on same page anyway brother. Trips deserves place in top 50

 

[GSPSAKU]

Trips gets criminally underrated sometimes; as much as he is/has been a cunt, he's definitely a GOAT - his highlights are immense, but recently think back to how over he put DBryan; he worked like a true master in the ring and on the mic.

Absolutely/positively > Rey Rey

I agree that HHH has been underrated by MOST wrestling fans due to them being unhappy with his politics over the past 16 years, particularly after his marriage to Stephanie. Him dominating RAWs, long 20 min soliloquies, holding people down, not putting over people when the time was right (Fucking Booker T), Summer of Punk (bringing in Nash, wtf), BUT with even with all of that BS, it's really not all that bad. Wrestlers have been doing this for years, ever since it became a work. Caddock, Wladek Zbysko, Londos, Strangler Lewis, Thesz, Race, Hogan, Michaels and Austin were no different than HHH if you dig into wrestling history. All these legends and men who were at the top of their respective promotions and era all did the same thing in terms of politics and not putting people over even when they were told to.

It should be clear to see that I hold little bias; I look at things for what they are yet I do not let it blind me. I see all of HHH's politics and BS but I also know it's not unique to HHH. I give the man his due; he is great, I have him on my top 50, I have him over Rey Mystero BUT I can truly understand and would not have a big deal with someone having Mysterio over HHH due to how important Mystero has been to wrestling, particularly American wrestling history and how we view Luchadors.

11 years ago, I wrote my first column about HHH, many of which were under various names and this is how I ended it and it had to do with HHH.

"So I will end my first column about Triple H like this. Instead of taking time to bash a wrestler the calibre of Triple H, let's take time to enjoy this guy's work in the ring and go back to being what we were (or I at least was) and that is being a wrestling fan and just sit back and watch the guy work his magic. No-one can deny that fact that he can make us cheer and hate his guts. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and become so judgemental and forget to applaud this man for what he's done for the WWE in the past 9 years. For all those stars who've left for bigger things or have quit because they don't like their storylines, this man has stayed his tenure and made himself a household name among wrestling fans everywhere. Let's appreciate him and just watch him work his magic and then discuss his legacy once he's left it behind him. I hope everyone has enjoyed this. Give me your thoughts both positive and negative." - Saku 2005

In no way related to Larry M; I read his book, dude, as stated in the OP - you seem to give more of a shit about him than I do, I commend you - I just think his book is good.

I've heard of him my whole wrestling life due to various ties I know. I know he's been in bad shape, in particular, the last few years and you seemed very passionate so I didn't know if you knew him personally or professionally.