The 50 Greatest PW's of All Time - Larry Matysik

Enjoy when you watch, Snowflake.


I think this kid ThunderL1ps has autism.


Haha, snowflake; you were the one triggered by (a reference to) Jericho's 'stupid idiot' line.


So not only are you a sensitive soul, you also are not very bright.


Feel free to make an intelligent contribution to the thread. Other than having an irrational fear of Y2J.
 
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Noone's saying it is; but match your knowledge, and anyone else you care to use, of entire history of PW with the author than decide who's opinion is most worthy of exalting.

No matter how much knowledge someone has, first-hand experience will always trump research with something as subjective as this.

I'm not saying there's no point discussing - but even the least-subjective list is still largely going to be a reflection of the era that someone was raised on.

More interesting to me than any given list are the comments of things like "Okay but I think we can all agree that (x) should just be in everyone's top 10"
 
No matter how much knowledge someone has, first-hand experience will always trump research with something as subjective as this.

I'm not saying there's no point discussing - but even the least-subjective list is still largely going to be a reflection of the era that someone was raised on.

More interesting to me than any given list are the comments of things like "Okay but I think we can all agree that (x) should just be in everyone's top 10"

Fair enough,

So you came into this thread to say subjectivity renders all list making pointless? Oookay, seems like a waste of your time; one wonders why you bothered contributing to say you're not contributing.

Not having a go dude, I appreciate your eloquence, seems though you couldve just skipped the thread all together as opposed to saying you're not contributing - people like making/discussing lists; here its on a PW best 50.

Knock yourself out and say where YOU think Matysik went wrong and where he went right; back it up with some knowledge or whatever.

If not, have a nice day thanks for stopping by : )
 
Fair enough,

So you came into this thread to say subjectivity renders all list making pointless? Oookay, seems like a waste of your time; one wonders why you bothered contributing to say you're not contributing.

Not having a go dude, I appreciate your eloquence, seems though you couldve just skipped the thread all together as opposed to saying you're not contributing - people like making/discussing lists; here its on a PW best 50.

Knock yourself out and say where YOU think Matysik went wrong and where he went right; back it up with some knowledge or whatever.

If not, have a nice day thanks for stopping by : )

I came by for what I mentioned at the end of my last post, people saying things like "how could anyone leave (whoever) out of their top 10"
 
I came by for what I mentioned at the end of my last post, people saying things like "how could anyone leave (whoever) out of their top 10"

Anyone out there brave enough to to post their top 10?
 
Anyone out there brave enough to to post their top 10?


I'll get ball rolling:

I do not have anywhere near the knowledge (when compared with Matysik and others) to be making a comprehensive 10 greatest PW's ever list, since I am not a PW historian, nor enough of an enthusiast to watch early 20th century PW to make an accurate account of entire PW history.

But I will knock up (very quickly) my 10 favourites to get things started. I'll prolly wanna change it umpteen times, but fuck it, here it is:

1) HBK

2) The Undertaker

3) The Rock

4) Stone Cold

5) HHH

6) Bret Hart

7) Mick Foley

8) Randy Savage

9) Ric Flair

10) Chris Benoit
 
To follow up DM1982 with a top ten.

Hulk Hogan
Stone Cold
Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Randy Savage
Ric Flair
The Rock
Undertaker
Andre the Giant
Mr. Perfect

The next group would be Warrior/Sting/Steamboat/etc etc
 
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To follow up DM1982 with a top ten.

Hulk Hogan
Stone Cold
The Rock
Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Ric Flair
Andre the Giant
Undertaker
Mr. Perfect
Randy Savage


The next group would be Steamboat/Warrior/Sting/DiBiase/etc etc


I wanted to put Ultimate Warrior in there; sure he wasn't a great technical worker, but for me he was what PW was all about as a kid - suspending disbelief, capturing the imagination and he looked like something out of a graphic novel:

the_ultimate_warrior_photo_by_windows8osx-d509ynp.jpg

How can a kid not think that's the coolest thing they'd ever seen?

Of course, as you grow as a viewer of PW you become more discerning - he just wasn't on top for long enough to be a true all time great.

But I think 90% of today's roster (and the jack wads that blasted him on that 'Self destruction of Ultimate Warrior' dvd) would kill for half the pop he got in his prime.
 
Top 10 greatest vs top 10 favorites are completely different ball games and there isabsolutely no room for debate on a list of favorites. Everyone has their own favorites which I will include at the bottom of this list



Here's my top 10, and for simplicity sake, I will keep this an American list only leaving out the greats from Japan and Mexico. I will only include wrestlers that I know and have seen a minimum of 10 matches.

Criteria are:
- Drawing power/ability
- Mainstream status
- Psychology
- Match quality
- Longevity (especially at the top)
- Professional Success
- Importance to history

Due to lack of time, I will include detailed notes for the first three and may come back when I have time to finish the commentary for the last 7. I will note that the spot I struggled with most was the #3/4 spot and #6/7 spot and #10 spot. A really weak area will, in my opinion, hurt a little especially for the first 10 wrestlers.

#1. Hulk Hoan
- Drawing Power/Ability:
You could legitimately make the argument that Hogan is the #1 draw in N. American Pro wrestling history if we go based on money earned and adjusted for inflation especially when you include the length of time Hogan has been at the top. Even a Hogan hater like Bret Hart has admitted numerous times, in the mid to late 80s, all the boys may not have respected Hogan but they all wanted to be on the card when he was top of the bill.

- Mainstream status: Much like drawing power, a legitimate case could be made for Hogan to be #2 based on mainstream status with only the Rock being ahead and most of that is due to his exposure from his wildly successful film career. Outside of the Rock, you take a picture of Hogan and any other wrestler and show it to a person from age 15-65 in any country around the world and chances are more will be able to identify Hogan than the other wrestler shown.

- Psychology:Always underrated but there's a reason why Hogan was so wildly popular as a face in the 80s, early 2000s, and as a heel in the mid 90's. Hogan had the ability to make people care/love him and hate him. The mannerisms, the way he spoke, the way he carried himself outside and inside the ring. He's the epitome of a guy who made his moves count, great with his facial expressions and even an underrated seller. Against others who made this list, Hogan may rank lower, in my opinion, but he's well above average with a few exceptions.

- Match quality:Objectively, this would be Hogan's weakest area but when you consider his size and most of the men he faced during his initial Hulkamania run, it's not as bad as one thinks. Sort of like 'Taker during his first 5-6 years in the WWE; faced big lumbering men who really weren't great workers but with Hogan, he knew how to preserve himself and as a result, his match quality in the US could be seen as subpar but it certainly didn't hurt his ability to draw but matched with his understanding of wrestling psychology, Hogan got away with it for basically his entire career.

- Longevity (especially at the top): Started in mid '77 and by '81, he was a bona fide star. From '83-'90, Hogan was the #1 star in his promotion (AWA/WWE) and in the entire wrestling world. From '90-'93, he was still the #1 guy in the WWE but not quite the star he was in the 80s. Took about a year off and came back in '94 to WCW where he maintained the top role, either face or heel, for roughly 6 years until '99. As an active full time wrestler, Hogan put in 22 years and spent 12 years as the top guy, the face of the company whether heel or face.

- Professional Success: First 5 time WWE champ, 6 time WCW champ, AWA and IWGP Champ

- Importance to history:Hogan's place in wrestling history is as secure as any. Hogan helped bring the WWE and wrestling into the mainstream culture; he was the entire bridge that essentially turned the WWE into a global promotion and kill the NWA. Then he left the WWE where he basically made his name and went to WCW where he helped make WCW the #1 wrestling company in the world for a period of 2 years. There is no room for debate about Hogan's importance and legacy to wrestling and I’m just keeping it short.

2.Lou Thesz
- Drawing power/ability:
For 35 years, he was a legit top 5 draw in the world ranging from 1 -5. Large crowds and sellouts were common every where he went in every territory in the US to Japan. There were years he fell from the top spot to a Gorgeous George or a Bruno but he was never further than 5 regardless from 1938-1975ish.

- Mainstream status :
Again, by the standard of the time, Lou Thesz was as mainstream as a wrestler could be and it’s hard to compare to the Hogans, Rocks and Austins, but everyone who knew anything about pro wrestling knew who Lou Thesz was

- Psychology:
One of the reasons Thesz was so great, and something you will see repeated throughout this list, was because of his inring psychology. Matches were worked differently back in his day but Thesz knew how to sell, how make his opponents hurt and vulnerable, and Thesz understood timing which is arguably as important as the art of selling.

- Match quality:
Having watched under 30 Thesz matches (I have 26 on tape which should be converted to DVD soon after losing two matches since the tapes went bad), the number is a bit low compared to others on this list but enough for me to have a fairly good understanding of the matches he like to put on. He had phenomenal matches and could work the crowd into a frenzy bringing the best matches out of many of his opponents. Again, match quality is also tied, in many ways, to psychology.

- Longevity (especially at the top):
For pure longevity, no one will top Thesz. He wrestled in 7 decades but was an active full time wrestler for 34 years and a part time wrestler for 13 years after that before wrestling the occasional match once ina blue moon for the next 11 years with his last match being in 1990.


- Professional Success: 6 time NWA champion in an era when a title actually meant something and rarely did anyone get a title more than twice.

- Importance to history:
This section, along with the other sections, could easily give Thesz the top stop because I fully believe Thesz’s importance to wrestling history is as good as anyone and could easily be argued as more important than anyone else. People who born in the late 60s all the way into the late 80s, when they think of the NWA, they think of Ric Flair but Thesz was the original Flair; Anyone who was born in the 20s-50s, the leader and champion of the NWA was always Lou Thesz, he was the guy who kept the NWA afloat for all of the years. He was to the NWA what Hogan was the the WWF.

Outside of his NWA ties, it was Thesz who was the first true American star in Japan and he opened the wrestling channels for American stars to make a living in Japan. He was a huge draw and would often go to Japan to wrestle their biggest and brightest stars.

Lou Thesz also trained one of Japan’s biggest stars in Masahiro Chono and Thesz also innovated many moves that are still used today including the German Suplex, powerbomb, the STF and the Thesz Press.


3. Ric Flair
- Drawing power/ability:
Was the #1 draw in the NWA for well over a decade from essentially 1981-1991 for the NWA. He drew money more money and more people than anyone else in the NWA/JCP/WCW during that period solidifying his status as the last great draw for the NWA.

- Mainstream status :
His mainstream status is just slightly below the Hogans, Flairs, and Austins but among sports athletes, Flair may be the cream of the crop. A huge name for any wrestling fan, casual or otherwise and a some mainstream status outside of the wrestling circle as noted in the first sentence.

- Psychology:
Flair’s in ring and out of ring psychology, as a complete package, rivals that of any wrestler. Flair knew how to draw legit heat, cheap heat, and could make you really hate him and love opponent, whomever he was wrestling that night. Flair had great timing and understood what he needed to do and when to do it to get maximum effect and that’s something almost all of the greats have.

- Match quality:
While some may knock Flair for having similar matches, the same can be said about nearly every other wrestler but in terms of match quality and the range of opponents Flair had, a debate could be made that he sits atop of this particular category; Flair was able to great matches with just about anyone in large part because Flair understood psychology well enough that his style meshed with anyone; he didn’t have a style that was too unique or innovative yet was creative enough that it worked for neary any opponent and every stytle. The often used term “he could have a great match with a broomstick” was first used to describe Flair.

- Longevity (especially at the top):
Flair spent exactly 15 years as the top heel/face between his stints in the NWA/JCP/WCW/WWE and had a career spanning 30 years before spending about 5 years as a part time wrestler. Amazing especially when you take into consideration his back injury that was supposed to end his career before his first NWA title reign.

- Professional Success:
16-22 World title reigns although the official count sits at 16…really? 16 time world champion and that includes his title reign in the WWE as well.

- Importance to history:
One of the few men that took another wrestler’s finisher and made it his own and making the move synonymous with his name. The figure four will forever be tied to Ric Flair. The nickname, “Nature Boy”, will forever be tied to Ric Flair and the catalogue of great matches that Flair had especially from the tail end of 70s (oddly enough post plane crash) all the way into the early 90s may not be touched. Flair also carried the NWA through its roughest stretch, prolonging and breathing much needed life into the dying NWA before it folded being the last great NWA champion adding the remarkable bookened to the NWA.

4. Bruno Sammartino
5. Frank Gotch
6. Buddy Rogers
7. Steve Austin
8. Andre the Giant
9. Ed Lewis
10. Georgeous George



Now with my top 10 Greatest Wrestlers of All Time list compiled in a manner that is as unbiased as possible, here’s my personal top 10 favorites of all time limited to American wrestlers (meaning favorite wrestlers to watch now which is different than when I was a kid)

1. Bret Hart
2. Shawn Michaels
3. Ray Stevens
4. Ric Flair
5. Chris Benoit
6. AJ Styles
7. Dory Funk Jr
8. Randy Savage
9. Steve Austin
10. Eddie Guerrero
 
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Top 10 greatest vs top 10 favorites are completely different ball games and there isabsolutely no room for debate on a list of favorites. Everyone has their own favorites which I will include at the bottom of this list



Here's my top 10, and for simplicity sake, I will keep this an American list only leaving out the greats from Japan and Mexico. I will only include wrestlers that I know and have seen a minimum of 10 matches.

Criteria are:
- Drawing power/ability
- Mainstream status
- Psychology
- Match quality
- Longevity (especially at the top)
- Professional Success
- Importance to history

Due to lack of time, I will include detailed notes for the first three and may come back when I have time to finish the commentary for the last 7. I will note that the spot I struggled with most was the #3/4 spot and #6/7 spot and #10 spot. A really weak area will, in my opinion, hurt a little especially for the first 10 wrestlers.

#1. Hulk Hoan
- Drawing Power/Ability:
You could legitimately make the argument that Hogan is the #1 draw in N. American Pro wrestling history if we go based on money earned and adjusted for inflation especially when you include the length of time Hogan has been at the top. Even a Hogan hater like Bret Hart has admitted numerous times, in the mid to late 80s, all the boys may not have respected Hogan but they all wanted to be on the card when he was top of the bill.

- Mainstream status: Much like drawing power, a legitimate case could be made for Hogan to be #2 based on mainstream status with only the Rock being ahead and most of that is due to his exposure from his wildly successful film career. Outside of the Rock, you take a picture of Hogan and any other wrestler and show it to a person from age 15-65 in any country around the world and chances are more will be able to identify Hogan than the other wrestler shown.

- Psychology:Always underrated but there's a reason why Hogan was so wildly popular as a face in the 80s, early 2000s, and as a heel in the mid 90's. Hogan had the ability to make people care/love him and hate him. The mannerisms, the way he spoke, the way he carried himself outside and inside the ring. He's the epitome of a guy who made his moves count, great with his facial expressions and even an underrated seller. Against others who made this list, Hogan may rank lower, in my opinion, but he's well above average with a few exceptions.

- Match quality:Objectively, this would be Hogan's weakest area but when you consider his size and most of the men he faced during his initial Hulkamania run, it's not as bad as one thinks. Sort of like 'Taker during his first 5-6 years in the WWE; faced big lumbering men who really weren't great workers but with Hogan, he knew how to preserve himself and as a result, his match quality in the US could be seen as subpar but it certainly didn't hurt his ability to draw but matched with his understanding of wrestling psychology, Hogan got away with it for basically his entire career.

- Longevity (especially at the top): Started in mid '77 and by '81, he was a bona fide star. From '83-'90, Hogan was the #1 star in his promotion (AWA/WWE) and in the entire wrestling world. From '90-'93, he was still the #1 guy in the WWE but not quite the star he was in the 80s. Took about a year off and came back in '94 to WCW where he maintained the top role, either face or heel, for roughly 6 years until '99. As an active full time wrestler, Hogan put in 22 years and spent 12 years as the top guy, the face of the company whether heel or face.

- Professional Success: First 5 time WWE champ, 6 time WCW champ, AWA and IWGP Champ

- Importance to history:Hogan's place in wrestling history is as secure as any. Hogan helped bring the WWE and wrestling into the mainstream culture; he was the entire bridge that essentially turned the WWE into a global promotion and kill the NWA. Then he left the WWE where he basically made his name and went to WCW where he helped make WCW the #1 wrestling company in the world for a period of 2 years. There is no room for debate about Hogan's importance and legacy to wrestling and I’m just keeping it short.

2.Lou Thesz
- Drawing power/ability:
For 35 years, he was a legit top 5 draw in the world ranging from 1 -5. Large crowds and sellouts were common every where he went in every territory in the US to Japan. There were years he fell from the top spot to a Gorgeous George or a Bruno but he was never further than 5 regardless from 1938-1975ish.

- Mainstream status :
Again, by the standard of the time, Lou Thesz was as mainstream as a wrestler could be and it’s hard to compare to the Hogans, Rocks and Austins, but everyone who knew anything about pro wrestling knew who Lou Thesz was

- Psychology:
One of the reasons Thesz was so great, and something you will see repeated throughout this list, was because of his inring psychology. Matches were worked differently back in his day but Thesz knew how to sell, how make his opponents hurt and vulnerable, and Thesz understood timing which is arguably as important as the art of selling.

- Match quality:
Having watched under 30 Thesz matches (I have 26 on tape which should be converted to DVD soon after losing two matches since the tapes went bad), the number is a bit low compared to others on this list but enough for me to have a fairly good understanding of the matches he like to put on. He had phenomenal matches and could work the crowd into a frenzy bringing the best matches out of many of his opponents. Again, match quality is also tied, in many ways, to psychology.

- Longevity (especially at the top):
For pure longevity, no one will top Thesz. He wrestled in 7 decades but was an active full time wrestler for 34 years and a part time wrestler for 13 years after that before wrestling the occasional match once ina blue moon for the next 11 years with his last match being in 1990.


- Professional Success: 6 time NWA champion in an era when a title actually meant something and rarely did anyone get a title more than twice.

- Importance to history:
This section, along with the other sections, could easily give Thesz the top stop because I fully believe Thesz’s importance to wrestling history is as good as anyone and could easily be argued as more important than anyone else. People who born in the late 60s all the way into the late 80s, when they think of the NWA, they think of Ric Flair but Thesz was the original Flair; Anyone who was born in the 20s-50s, the leader and champion of the NWA was always Lou Thesz, he was the guy who kept the NWA afloat for all of the years. He was to the NWA what Hogan was the the WWF.

Outside of his NWA ties, it was Thesz who was the first true American star in Japan and he opened the wrestling channels for American stars to make a living in Japan. He was a huge draw and would often go to Japan to wrestle their biggest and brightest stars.

Lou Thesz also trained one of Japan’s biggest stars in Masahiro Chono and Thesz also innovated many moves that are still used today including the German Suplex, powerbomb, the STF and the Thesz Press.


3. Ric Flair
- Drawing power/ability:
Was the #1 draw in the NWA for well over a decade from essentially 1981-1991 for the NWA. He drew money more money and more people than anyone else in the NWA/JCP/WCW during that period solidifying his status as the last great draw for the NWA.

- Mainstream status :
His mainstream status is just slightly below the Hogans, Flairs, and Austins but among sports athletes, Flair may be the cream of the crop. A huge name for any wrestling fan, casual or otherwise and a some mainstream status outside of the wrestling circle as noted in the first sentence.

- Psychology:
Flair’s in ring and out of ring psychology, as a complete package, rivals that of any wrestler. Flair knew how to draw legit heat, cheap heat, and could make you really hate him and love opponent, whomever he was wrestling that night. Flair had great timing and understood what he needed to do and when to do it to get maximum effect and that’s something almost all of the greats have.

- Match quality:
While some may knock Flair for having similar matches, the same can be said about nearly every other wrestler but in terms of match quality and the range of opponents Flair had, a debate could be made that he sits atop of this particular category; Flair was able to great matches with just about anyone in large part because Flair understood psychology well enough that his style meshed with anyone; he didn’t have a style that was too unique or innovative yet was creative enough that it worked for neary any opponent and every stytle. The often used term “he could have a great match with a broomstick” was first used to describe Flair.

- Longevity (especially at the top):
Flair spent exactly 15 years as the top heel/face between his stints in the NWA/JCP/WCW/WWE and had a career spanning 30 years before spending about 5 years as a part time wrestler. Amazing especially when you take into consideration his back injury that was supposed to end his career before his first NWA title reign.

- Professional Success:
16-22 World title reigns although the official count sits at 16…really? 16 time world champion and that includes his title reign in the WWE as well.

- Importance to history:
One of the few men that took another wrestler’s finisher and made it his own and making the move synonymous with his name. The figure four will forever be tied to Ric Flair. The nickname, “Nature Boy”, will forever be tied to Ric Flair and the catalogue of great matches that Flair had especially from the tail end of 70s (oddly enough post plane crash) all the way into the early 90s may not be touched. Flair also carried the NWA through its roughest stretch, prolonging and breathing much needed life into the dying NWA before it folded being the last great NWA champion adding the remarkable bookened to the NWA.

4. Bruno Sammartino
5. Frank Gotch
6. Buddy Rogers
7. Steve Austin
8. Andre the Giant
9. Frank Gotch
10. Georgeous George



Now with my top 10 Greatest Wrestlers of All Time list compiled in a manner that is as unbiased as possible, here’s my personal top 10 favorites of all time limited to American wrestlers (meaning favorite wrestlers to watch now which is different than when I was a kid)

1. Bret Hart
2. Shawn Michaels
3. Ray Stevens
4. Ric Flair
5. Chris Benoit
6. AJ Styles
7. Dory Funk Jr
8. Randy Savage
9. Steve Austin
10. Eddie Guerrero


Another Benoit fan, sweet; Guerrero too, nice. You musta loved WrestleMania XX then, especially the ending - one of my favourite moments too.

I'm confused, were there 2 Frank Gotch's, the name features twice in your first list?
 
Another Benoit fan, sweet; Guerrero too, nice. You musta loved WrestleMania XX then, especially the ending - one of my favourite moments too.

I'm confused, were there 2 Frank Gotch's, the name features twice in your first list?
It was supposed to be Ed Lewis at 9.

The WMXX was very nice but I am one of those that do find it alot harder to watch Benoit's matches and have the same affinity for him that I used to
 
It was supposed to be Ed Lewis at 9.

The WMXX was very nice but I am one of those that do find it alot harder to watch Benoit's matches and have the same affinity for him that I used to


Don't want to sound like a sociopath, but it honestly doesn't detract from my enjoyment of watching him.

It's not real life watching him perform as a pro wrestler; I can separate the performer from the real man.

And I choose to believe he was suffering from a mental condition which gives him diminished responsibility.

There's just no better worker in the ring in my eyes, so why let that be interrupted.
 
Don't want to sound like a sociopath, but it honestly doesn't detract from my enjoyment of watching him.

It's not real life watching him perform as a pro wrestler; I can separate the performer from the real man.

And I choose to believe he was suffering from a mental condition which gives him diminished responsibility.

There's just no better worker in the ring in my eyes, so why let that be interrupted.


While I still enjoy his work and think he was one of the greatests, I don't get the same joy watching the WM 20 because I can't sit there and feel happy for him like I used to. I can understand it and to each their own and the fact I still have him in my personal top 10 I think speaks volumes of how I feel about him as a performer.
 
Anyone out there brave enough to to post their top 10?

Post WM1 or 1990 would be fair. Anybody really claim to know their territory days?

No particular order:

Flair for being Flair in WCW and WWE, Hogan for building the WWE and for the NWO and still being the best known wrestler of all time, Cena for being the face of WWE for a decade, Austin for a generation of AA fans, Undertaker for duh, The Rock for cooking, Jericho for inspiring an entire generation of cruiser wrestlers, Owen Hart and Shawn Michaels for obvious reasons.

Honorable mentions: Rey Mysterio, Kane, Bryanson, CM Punk, Randy, Sting, Foley, Edge, Triss,

Not in contention: Roddy for being a definite top 10 all time ever but being shit after 1990, Goldberg for being shit, Kurt Angle for being TNA, Brock Lesnar for being an asshole with zer moves, Dusty because he was a joke by then
 
RIP to Matysik and the only thread dedicated to something Matysik said and/or wrote
 
Where are all of the Japanese pro wrestlers?

Dave Meltzer wouldn't approve.
 
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