STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Khabibs Tiramisu]

A gif isn't a response. Luke changes his mind inexplicably and decides to help last minute. I don't mind force projection or the idea of using it as misdirection, but the fight itself I hated. It wasn't even a fight, just Matrix inspired dodgy bullshit.

Why did he die exactly? Because he tired himself out? That's lame as shit.

Lmao at Luke fainting and then vanishing after the force projection.. And a "bad ass" villain like Kylo not being able to distinguish a force projection from the real Luke..

So far Kylo has shown nothing that makes him an awesome villain. Rey has kicked his ass repeatedly, he gets fooled by a force projection from another planet, he cries in an elevator and even destroys the mask that makes him look cool. What a fucking idiot. Who wants to see his ugly face crying? Would you want to buy a toy with his crying face? I'm pretty sure 10 year olds would love that.

If they're gonna kill Luke, why didn't they just let Luke go to the planet, say goodbye to Lea, fought Kylo and his troops to buy the others time to escape? That would be a more heroic death and a good way for Luke to exit this franchise. Sounds much better than doing a force projection from another planet and then dying/vanishing anyway.

 

[minute bull]

If they're gonna kill Luke, why didn't they just let Luke go to the planet, say goodbye to Lea, fought Kylo and his troops to buy the others time to escape? That would be a more heroic death and a good way for Luke to exit this franchise.

Sounds like the same thing as what happened. Without the contrivance of Luke actually being beaten by Kylo or vice versa.

 

[chickenluver]

that was explained in the movie by Kylo to Rey I believe when he said that they would've died if they did something like that.

So Snoke was able to connect two different people across a great distance no problem, yet Luke projects himself once and dies from the strain? But Snoke wasn't able to sense Kylo's betrayal or even notice the light saber moving next to him? Nah, that's shit writing. Doesn't matter that they tried to explain it with a throwaway line, the point is it was a writer's choice to kill Luke, and dying from over use of force projection is stupid.

 

[Khabibs Tiramisu]

Sounds like the same thing as what happened. Without the contrivance of Luke actually being beaten by Kylo or vice versa.

What I meant was that it would have been more dramatic for him to actually be there, to fight hordes of enemies and dying there. It was a good way for them to show how much he has improved over the years that he's been missing in action. All the while the others are scrambling to escape.

Instead he's fighting from another planet, then dies due to exhaustion? WTF? There wasn't anything dramatic about it knowing that Kylo was just fighting an illusion

 

[minute bull]

Hindsight is 20/20 foreal.

So Snoke was able to connect two different people across a great distance no problem, yet Luke projects himself once and dies from the strain? But Snoke wasn't able to sense Kylo's betrayal or even notice the light saber moving next to him? Nah, that's shit writing.

Don't be so tough on human characters suffering human foibles. I know you want the story to persuade you more, but I don't think it's shit wiring that they weren't all powerful all the time and that they made mistakes.

Hell yes it should be tougher to fool dozens of people rather than connect two people. Why is that silly?

 

[chickenluver]

Now it's my time to start my response the same way you started yours, but how is it regression? Whether he lost his ideals and values, or abandoned them -- he recovers them and reignites his own legendary status to himself. That's not enough of a redemption for the morass JJ Abrams put us in?

It's unbelievable to me that the person Luke was would become the person in this movie. The only way he could get so down and abandon everything was is his family and friends were already dead. Character inconsistency would be a more accurate term than regression. They wrote an entirely different character. He already knew that the Empire had won before he was born, but they were eventually brought down specifically because Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't give up. They went into exile, but not to give up, not to die, but to bid their time. When the time came they never said "fuck it, let the bad guys win." I get that people change after 30 years, but this extreme of a change needed an extreme reason for it, and the reveal was not believable in itself or executed well.

I don't care about a redemption when I don't accept the reason he was in a position from which he needed to be redeemed. It's an empty gesture.

Hell yes it should be tougher to fool dozens of people rather than connect two people. Why is that silly?

Force powers are totally arbitrary. Luke projected his image and voice, and apparently sent some physical dice to Leia. Snoke connected two force users without making his presence known, projected images and sounds from two separate places, and transferred rain water across the galaxy. An argument could be made for one or the other being tougher, but it doesn't matter because it's totally arbitrary, as is the overuse of force power leading to death. They just wanted a big reveal so they came up with the projection idea, but they also wanted Luke to die at the end, so they threw in a line about the strain being too much. There was no reason he needed to die.

 

[ufcfan4]

It's unbelievable to me that the person Luke was would become the person in this movie. The only way he could get so down and abandon everything was is his family and friends were already dead. Character inconsistency would be a more accurate term than regression. They wrote an entirely different character. He already knew that the Empire had won before he was born, but they were eventually brought down specifically because Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't give up. They went into exile, but not to give up, not to die, but to bid their time. When the time came they never said "fuck it, let the bad guys win." I get that people change after 30 years, but this extreme of a change needed an extreme reason for it, and the reveal was not believable in itself or executed well.

I don't care about a redemption when I don't accept the reason he was in a position from which he needed to be redeemed. It's an empty gesture.

Force powers are totally arbitrary. Luke projected his image and voice, and apparently sent some physical dice to Leia. Snoke connected two force users without making his presence known, projected images and sounds from two separate places, and transferred rain water across the galaxy. An argument could be made for one or the other being tougher, but it doesn't matter because it's totally arbitrary, as is the overuse of force power leading to death. They just wanted a big reveal so they came up with the projection idea, but they also wanted Luke to die at the end, so they threw in a line about the strain being too much. There was no reason he needed to die.

That's an excellent point about Obi-Wan's and Yoda's exiles in contrast to Luke's.

One thing that resonates with me every time when people point out the problems with TLJ is that emphasis on the notion that the Luke of the OT could not have conceivably gotten to the point he was in in the new trilogy. It's one thing to be disillusioned. It's another to write off your nephew, your sister, your brother-in-law, your friends, your droids, the Jedi Order, the galaxy and just resign yourself to death on a nice vacation spot.

I can't help but feel they could have avoided this a bit by explaining that Luke had isolated himself at the site of the ancient Jeid relics because he was seeking some deeper knowledge or understanding of the light/dark side of the force in the wake of his failure with Ren and the young proteges he could not protect. That is, he has not given up on the world but is seeking out some state zen Force state that will allow him to better help in the fight.

I remember there was a lot of speculation going into TLJ that Luke was going to teach Rey that the whole dichotomy of dark and light was off-base and that there were ways to harness elements of the dark side without turning to it (think, say, what Strange learned from the Ancient One that Mordo could ultimately not accept). I almost feel that this would have been a cooler, fresh angle. You could have had Luke saying he felt the Jedi missed out on something without shitting all over them.

 

[chickenluver]

That's an excellent point about Obi-Wan's and Yoda's exiles in contrast to Luke's.

One thing that resonates with me every time when people point out the problems with TLJ is that emphasis on the notion that the Luke of the OT could not have conceivably gotten to the point he was in in the new trilogy. It's one thing to be disillusioned. It's another to write off your nephew, your sister, your brother-in-law, your friends, your droids, the Jedi Order, the galaxy and just resign yourself to death on a nice vacation spot.

I can't help but feel they could have avoided this a bit by explaining that Luke had isolated himself at the site of the ancient Jeid relics because he was seeking some deeper knowledge or understanding of the light/dark side of the force in the wake of his failure with Ren and the young proteges he could not protect. That is, he has not given up on the world but is seeking out some state zen Force state that will allow him to better help in the fight.

I remember there was a lot of speculation going into TLJ that Luke was going to teach Rey that the whole dichotomy of dark and light was off-base and that there were ways to harness elements of the dark side without turning to it (think, say, what Strange learned from the Ancient One that Mordo could ultimately not accept). I almost feel that this would have been a cooler, fresh angle. You could have had Luke saying he felt the Jedi missed out on something without shitting all over them.

Yeah like I said I could accept him giving up if it was truly an all is lost scenario. As it is he seems to have accepted defeat years before everyone else on the good side.

There are also ways to bring someone to a bad place without assassinating their character and making them completely abandon their values. A desperate and tired Luke who believes victory is a long shot would have been more believable.

How a character such as Luke sank so low should have had more time dedicated to explaining it, and a much more thoughtful, logical reason why he became that way. What they showed us doesn't cut it. What he did to Kylo is just as unbelievable as him giving up all hope immediately after.

In theory I'm ok with the idea of questioning the jedi teachings. The problem is basically all of the questionable things about the jedi come straight from the shitty prequels. Force awakens mostly ignored the existent of the prequels, last jedi conflates the OT with the prequels in order to shit on them both. I've never seen a movie so clearly made by someone who hates the series it belongs to and all the fans. Zak Synder obviously hates Superman, but not even close to how much Johnson hates Star Wars.

 

[Bob Gray]

Yeah like I said I could accept him giving up if it was truly an all is lost scenario. As it is he seems to have accepted defeat years before everyone else on the good side.

There are also ways to bring someone to a bad place without assassinating their character and making them completely abandon their values. A desperate and tired Luke who believes victory is a long shot would have been more believable.

How a character such as Luke sank so low should have had more time dedicated to explaining it, and a much more thoughtful, logical reason why he became that way. What they showed us doesn't cut it. What he did to Kylo is just as unbelievable as him giving up all hope immediately after.

In theory I'm ok with the idea of questioning the jedi teachings. The problem is basically all of the questionable things about the jedi come straight from the shitty prequels. Force awakens mostly ignored the existent of the prequels, last jedi conflates the OT with the prequels in order to shit on them both. I've never seen a movie so clearly made by someone who hates the series it belongs to and all the fans. Zak Synder obviously hates Superman, but not even close to how much Johnson hates Star Wars.

Since it came on netflix I actually went back and watched it again. I will say this. It is better than I remember. But that doesnt mean Id call it good. There were a couple of things that were sort of throw away lines that could make me almost accept some things. Almost, but not really.

One of the things that stuck out was Luke reading Kylos mind. We dont actually see what his vision is. Just "everything I knew destroyed yadda yadda yadda." I felt like there was a missed opportunity there by not having Snoke implant the vision somehow, like a trap he had set for Luke. Maybe they could have actually shown some images of Luke having a wife and child, and visions of Kylo murdering them in some sort of horrible fashion that could actually be shown on a PG-13 movie. First you see images of his wifes beautiful face. Random shots of them smiling, touching hands, a quick kiss, etc. Some brief image of a wedding ceremony. Luke kissing her pregnant stomach, etc. In the background you see Kylos face staring intently with a slight hint of malice.

Then, not explicitly shown, youd see Kylo kill Lukes child as a baby along with his wife, with his face all pale and scarred up as its been twisted by the dark side, with Luke somehow powerless to stop seeing his wife and child (or even children) slaughtered.

Then cut back to Luke in the tent with Kylo, with a look of shock on his face that his saber is extended, then Kylo notices and blah blah blah.


Anyway, I feel like something like that would have been easier to accept.



EDIT: Actually I just thought of something else that could have been down with angles and not being explicit. Show Kylo with Lukes very pregnant wife, maybe hes suspending her in mid air with the force. Then somehow, with the use of camera trickery to avoid anything super explicit, you see him impale her with his light saber.

 

[ElKarlo]

No, Snoke is stupid. Yes even without a backstory. So there's some super powerful guy just hanging out in the galaxy, and he takes over after the Emperor dies? Just doesn't make sense. I don't care that he doesn't have a backstory, he doesn't fit in to the SW story line. If he was that powerful, what was he doing,a nd why did he suddenly appear? It's asinine and a pointless story. Face it, you can do mental gymnastics, or you can just admit he's the emperor redone. TFA was a New Hope, so they had a new Death Star and they made a new Emperor.
Snoke is boring and unoriginal as a bad guy.

 

[GtehMVP]

So Snoke was able to connect two different people across a great distance no problem, yet Luke projects himself once and dies from the strain? But Snoke wasn't able to sense Kylo's betrayal or even notice the light saber moving next to him? Nah, that's shit writing. Doesn't matter that they tried to explain it with a throwaway line, the point is it was a writer's choice to kill Luke, and dying from over use of force projection is stupid.

Snoke was force projecting in 1080i, 60 hrtz, low poly background, and a smaller field of view too

Luke was projecting in 16k, 240 hrtz, monster field of view, ultra textures, was really pushing those midichlorians

 

[One MMA Fan]

A gif isn't a response. Luke changes his mind inexplicably and decides to help last minute. I don't mind force projection or the idea of using it as misdirection, but the fight itself I hated. It wasn't even a fight, just Matrix inspired dodgy bullshit.

Why did he die exactly? Because he tired himself out? That's lame as shit.

that was explained in the movie by Kylo to Rey I believe when he said that they would've died if they did something like that.

@One MMA Fan @EvilDDS what's that reference I'm referring to? Chikinfooka forgot that was explained in the movie.

Luke changes his mind after self reflection.. he saw Rey, he saw Yoda and decided he needs to help. He decided he was wrong and was man enough to own up to it.

He was dodgy/matrix because the trick would be discovered, as soon as Kylo made contact with him he knew something is up and then confirmed it with the other poke/stab. So yea he needed to be all elusive and stuff, welcome to the Machida Luke era.

The 2 accepted reasons why he died so far are: this act was extremely consuming to be able to project himself over that distance and for all people to see him.. and second more poetic if you will is that he was at peace with himself he didn't carry extra guilt no more and accepted himself and his position so he become one with the force just like Yoda did.

 

[One MMA Fan]

So Snoke was able to connect two different people across a great distance no problem, yet Luke projects himself once and dies from the strain? But Snoke wasn't able to sense Kylo's betrayal or even notice the light saber moving next to him? Nah, that's shit writing. Doesn't matter that they tried to explain it with a throwaway line, the point is it was a writer's choice to kill Luke, and dying from over use of force projection is stupid.

2 force users, just them connected and I think deep down they kinda wanted to be connected to on some subconsciousness level.

vs

Real time self projecting for everyone seeing you, don't matter how many people involved he had them all covered they all could see him.

Then we have the fact that maybe Snoke could have been stronger or knew more about that technique.. we don't know if Luke was indeed the most powerful force user alive at that time especially for someone that cut himself from the force and wasn't practicing it, he was fully retired but he had enough in him to pull it off even under those conditions.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Luke changes his mind after self reflection.. he saw Rey, he saw Yoda and decided he needs to help. He decided he was wrong and was man enough to own up to it.

Did Luke decide, or did he get dragged, almost kicking and screaming, by Yoda to actually do something useful. Yoda had to literally destroy sacred grounds in front of Luke's eyes to kick him in the pants. I mean Jake's eyes, cause that sure as hell didn't seem like Luke Skywalker to me.

He was dodgy/matrix because the trick would be discovered, as soon as Kylo made contact with him he knew something is up and then confirmed it with the other poke/stab. So yea he needed to be all elusive and stuff, welcome to the Machida Luke era.

I was fine with the dodgy Matrix stuff. It looked good enough and made sense in the scene.

The 2 accepted reasons why he died so far are: this act was extremely consuming to be able to project himself over that distance and for all people to see him.. and second more poetic if you will is that he was at peace with himself he didn't carry extra guilt no more and accepted himself and his position so he become one with the force just like Yoda did.

Reason 1: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it's written that way so I can't say it isn't. Doesn't really make it good, just makes it an accurate description of what we saw.

Reason 2: ...that extra guilt - life negating guilt - that Rian Johnson felt Jake needed to be infused with. Yeah, you could say that is in the movie too. But it takes Rian Johnson to make Luke Skywalker, the first time we see him after celebrating with the Ewoks, so infused and wracked with guilt that he wants to die.

 

[One MMA Fan]

how Kylo with Lukes very pregnant wife, maybe hes suspending her in mid air with the force. Then somehow, with the use of camera trickery to avoid anything super explicit, you see him impale her with his light saber.

Damn man relax a little bit.

Also if more people just let the movie flow and tell the story without what you wanted to see or premade ideas and judgment I swear you will have a way better experience like it or not you will enjoy it more.

Then again I'm perfectly fine with people not that into it, not every single movie should be a-ok with everyone.

 

[BisexualMMA]

2 force users, just them connected and I think deep down they kinda wanted to be connected to on some subconsciousness level.

Rey didn't seem at all interested in connecting with Kylo until she saw dem Ted DiBiase pecs.

 

[One MMA Fan]

Did Luke decide, or did he get dragged, almost kicking and screaming, by Yoda to actually do something useful. Yoda had to literally destroy sacred grounds in front of Luke's eyes to kick him in the pants. I mean Jake's eyes, cause that sure as hell didn't seem like Luke Skywalker to me.

Reason 1: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it's written that way so I can't say it isn't. Doesn't really make it good, just makes it an accurate description of what we saw.

Reason 2: ...that extra guilt - life negating guilt - that Rian Johnson felt Jake needed to be infused with. Yeah, you could say that is in the movie too. But it takes Rian Johnson to make Luke Skywalker, the first time we see him after celebrating with the Ewoks, so infused and wracked with guilt that he wants to die.

I think Yoda was teaching him lessons still. It's not about the place/spot sacred or not it's about the people.

The texts were saved so they don't even lose those so you just lose the old tree at the price of an important lesson he need to hear. Between force ghost Jedi's and Rey's innate abilities and those texts she got it's already enough to start over in another place and the force will exist beyond Luke and Rey the force is always present in some capacity.

I got no problem with your or other saying that this doesn't work for them, all I'm arguing for is this isn't so random that is actually right there in the movie and this are the ideas and conclusions I got some work for me and others don't but they are there and I see them.

This isn't the young, hopeful, confident, winner Luke this is an old, scarred, jaded old man.. he failed his family and 'maybe the universe' that's a lot of stuff to carry on someone shoulders. Do you guys not see really old folks in your lives that are more angry and more sad ? I mean it's kinda normal to a degree you are at the end of your life and all the shit you did or didn't do are creeping up on you and if the scale ain't right you probably won't feel so happy.

Rey didn't seem at all interested in connecting with Kylo until she saw dem Ted DiBiase pecs.

Yes indeed initial reaction was aggression and hate but deep down I felt something, or maybe I'm just a goof that wanted to feel something.

 

[IamStryker]

I actually do listen to things you couple dozen people say... & I've even adjusted some of my understanding based on being pressed by your conversations.
.

What happened is that you flip flopped because you realized what you were saying didn't make any sense. "Snoke's backstory doesn't matter but I will riot in the streets if they say nothing about him in the next movie".

It was very baffling to see you over and over again try to defend the idea that movies can treat characters this poorly and that is ok or good writing. You may not care about Snoke but believe it or not most people who watch movies want more from main villains than that. Good movies make you care about all of the main and supporting characters. Makes you hate them or love them or be very intrigued by them.

We didn't know a whole lot about Palpatine originally but he was an epic character. He was part of the big finale at the end of the trilogy. He wasn't just fodder for Vader in the second movie and then everyone just collectively goes "who the fuck was that guy"?

Then Last Jedi makes him the cause of Kylo Ren's corruption, and therefore Luke's uncharacteristic abandoning of all his family, friends and values, yet also kills him off with no additional information provided. It's lazy world building, and anticlimactic storytelling.

I would agree with that. Lazy and anticlimactic are good words for Snokes character.

 

[BisexualMMA]

This isn't the young, hopeful, confident, winner Luke this is an old, scarred, jaded old man.. he failed his family and 'maybe the universe' that's a lot of stuff to carry on someone shoulders. Do you guys not see really old folks in your lives that are more angry and more sad ? I mean it's kinda normal to a degree you are at the end of your life and all the shit you did or didn't do are creeping up on you and if the scale ain't right you probably won't feel so happy.

Sure, that happens, but the people who know them get to see that journey from hopeful and triumphant winner to bitter old loser, if that journey even happens. We saw the journey of Michael Corleone from optimistic young war hero to who he was at the end of The Godfather III. He didn't just come home from the war, save his family in the first one, and then all of a sudden we see him old and depressed and angry and learn through a couple flashbacks that apparently he was some kind of an asshole to Fredo at some point.

Usually these bitter old bastards are characters like Gene Hackman in The Chamber, who have lived a life that they should apologize for, and usually from youth right through to old age, as opposed to turning on a dime at age 45 or whatever. And we saw a lot more of Gene Hackman's history in The Chamber than Rian Johnson felt like showing us for Jake in The Last Jedi.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Snoke was force projecting in 1080i, 60 hrtz, low poly background, and a smaller field of view too

Luke was projecting in 16k, 240 hrtz, monster field of view, ultra textures, was really pushing those midichlorians

Well presented GT

@chickenluver this post here is the reason I knew you were trolling me. It's because everyone realizes this. GT spelled it all out for you here.

You made a big deal out of the idea that Snoke could mind meld Kylo & Rey but when Luke projected himself to 100 + people you made it out to be the same thing & mocked the fact that Luke died but Snoke didn't. This post spells out what you either weren't getting... or in my opinion, is the counterpoint to what you were trolling about.