STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[One MMA Fan]

Sure, that happens, but the people who know them get to see that journey from hopeful and triumphant winner to bitter old loser, if that journey even happens. We saw the journey of Michael Corleone from optimistic young war hero to who he was at the end of The Godfather III. He didn't just come home from the war, save his family in the first one, and then all of a sudden we see him old and depressed and angry and learn through a couple flashbacks that apparently he was some kind of an asshole to Fredo at some point.

Usually these bitter old bastards are characters like Gene Hackman in The Chamber, who have lived a life that they should apologize for, and usually from youth right through to old age, as opposed to turning on a dime at age 45 or whatever. And we saw a lot more of Gene Hackman's history in The Chamber than Rian Johnson felt like showing us for Jake in The Last Jedi.

Well you can't always make masterpieces like Godfather.

No one is saying this movie isn't without flaws, we are just saying it's not that bad guys for some of us even good.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

What happened is that you flip flopped because you realized what you were saying didn't make any sense. "Snoke's backstory doesn't matter but I will riot in the streets if they say nothing about him in the next movie".

I wish you would stop quoting me. This is the same nonsense you were doing before.

Too explain. I said that quote about rioting in the streets when we began our conversation because I thought Snoke's backstory was crucial to the story. Then, you pressed me to think about it as if Ep. 8 were the last movie they would make... & I then saw very clearly that Snoke's back story is nothing but a curiosity at best. The movie stands perfectly fine without it. So my understanding was altered. I thank you for that... but this harrassment where you try to accuse me of not making sense to begin with is just silly. Especially since what I was saying to begin with is what your current point of view is.... lol....

Don't you see the humor in you saying my original point of view didn't make sense... when that is actually your current point of view? lol... it's so strange some of the things you say. You're actually dissing yourself.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Well you can't always make masterpieces like Godfather.

No one is saying this movie isn't without flaws, we are just saying it's not that bad guys for some of us even good.

I won't tell you that you shouldn't partly or completely enjoy the film.

But I consider the film, for the most part, to be a product of poisonous intentions.

 

[moreorless87]

You should read Film Crit Hulk's take on JJ Abrams. Article One. Article Two. There are more, and in more recent years he abandoned the ALL CAPS gimmick. Essentially: Abrams is mostly TONE.

I don't think Abrams invented a style of filmmaking so much as he doesn't really know what he's doing, but doing his best impression of Steven Spielberg. Just like Zack Snyder is trending his way to becoming pop culture's Terrence Malick. It's not so much disrespecting the concept of story but focusing on story mechanics rather than substance and text. Abrams, like Snyder, conceives story visually. Unlike Snyder, who is more about cool-ass imagery, Abrams strives for tone and structure -- the former to make the audience feel and the latter to incite and pique anticipation in his so-called "Magic Box" theory. Hitchcock was the same way in crafting a story, working with writers to develop a cogent story based on what technology and creativity could muster at the time -- to spin the "correct" sequence of images. And speaking of Hitchcock -- this kinda came up in the visually stunning films thread -- a lot of the noir was a result of hiding set shortcomings. For STAR WARS, it is the opposite: there is no limit to Disney's + Lucasfilm's visual capacity. Moreover, audiences KNOW that CGI can render anything and we're also living in a generation of Complain First Reassess Maybe -- so story standards are much, much higher and excuses are not at all tolerated. The problem here is that just because there is greater access to technology and imagery -- this doesn't mean people come up with stories that much better. This is not to say Abrams/Snyder/et all are doing poor poor jobs -- it's just that there are levels to this shit.


I think we as audiences tend to focus on the plot/text aspect of story. The What Happens. Some people can enjoy the technical craft, but it takes a backseat to formal plot points. I personally hate the notion that learning more about craft makes one more critical of films. Some will warn, "After you take more XYZ course on film, you'll see all the flaws of every film you'll see." I don't think that's true, except in cases of bias confirmation where it's just whiners gonna whine no matter what.

I would say the biggest trend in modern audiences is the propensity to get caught up in hype, the media's power to influence perception is greater than its ever been and with the decline of independent critics in favour of sheep like "content providers" on the net this reaction has become far more universal and simplistic, often guided by some talking point not quality. Often its only after the hype has died down that you start to get a real appraisal of a films quality with sequels potentially being helped or hurt by it, which doesn't reflect well on Abrams I'd say with two franchises he launched starting well then showing signs of serious decline.

Whilst Abrams likes to relate himself to Spielberg I think as a film maker he's much more obviously influenced by Michael Bay, the same mix of rapid quick cut action with kenetic camerawork, hyperactive plotting and overt humour. I think that's what makes him ill suited to franchises like Starwars and Trek that previously build their reputation on slower builds of character and especially location plus grander action. I really disagree with the idea that Abrams is some kind of visual master, to me his films are massively lacking in subtly full of over lit, simplistic compositions, I mean for all Bay's weaknesses and bad taste I would say that he has more of an individual style with those tele action shots with so many layers to them.

I do think that's what drove a lot of the negative reaction to Rogue One from certain people(prominent Youtubers especially), they'd spent years pushing the idea that Abrams was very much the natural successor to Spielberg and Lucas only to get confronted with a film that arguably reflects the original Starwars far more closely. The reaction was to dimiss it as overly serious fan service yet looking around a second hand shop yesterday, TFA Blu-Ray £3, Rogue One Blu-ray £8.

Part of the problem with TLJ to me seemed to be that it felt like it was having to shoehorn Abrams style into it so you end up IMHO with a bit of a mess between more serious elements and screwball comedy. The originals actually had very little of that, the humour was almost entirely wit.

 

[IamStryker]

I wish you would stop quoting me. This is the same nonsense you were doing before.

Too explain. I said that quote about rioting in the streets when we began our conversation because I thought Snoke's backstory was crucial to the story. Then, you pressed me to think about it as if Ep. 8 were the last movie they would make... & I then saw very clearly that Snoke's back story is nothing but a curiosity at best. The movie stands perfectly fine without it. So my understanding was altered. I thank you for that... but this harrassment where you try to accuse me of not making sense to begin with is just silly. Especially since what I was saying to begin with is what your current point of view is.... lol....

I just want to point out that before you conveniently changed your mind you were arguing very strongly for your point of view and attacking people who disagreed. It's interesting how in a few posts you completely change your mind on Snoke. First it was very important to give us more on him and then it was totally unimportant.

Don't you see the humor in you saying my original point of view didn't make sense... when that is actually your current point of view? lol... it's so strange some of the things you say. You're actually dissing yourself.

No your original view was that he was fine in the second movie but they needed to give us more story on him in the third movie. That was very inconsistent which led you to change your mind. This view is nothing like mine because I do not think Snoke is fine in the second movie. He was handled very very poorly. Might want to think your posts through before posting that I am somehow "dissing myself".

 

[moreorless87]

The problem with a lot of that kind of plotting in the sequels for me is that it depends on a kind of reflected nostalgia. Someone like Snoke is basically playing on the Emperor asking us to view him in the same way, Rey looking to redeem Kylo is playing on Luke redeeming Vader, etc. When you look at little deeper the films are lacking in real motivations and logic.

 

[Philo-Publius]

A remake? Without Princess Leia? You just can't undo what you have already done. Face it. You destroyed the franchise.

 

[moreorless87]

I'm guessing that remake poster is basically another version of "everyone who dislikes this film is a filthy bigot!" media response?

 

[Bob Gray]

Damn man relax a little bit.

Also if more people just let the movie flow and tell the story without what you wanted to see or premade ideas and judgment I swear you will have a way better experience like it or not you will enjoy it more.

Then again I'm perfectly fine with people not that into it, not every single movie should be a-ok with everyone.

How can I have a premade judgement? Im talking about the story it was was telling me, not my idea of what the story should have been instead. For all we know, that was Lukes vision. What Im saying is something like that would have made it a easier to swallow as to why he, even for 1 second, thought of attempting to murder his nephew in his sleep.

 

[One MMA Fan]

How can I have a premade judgement? Im talking about the story it was was telling me, not my idea of what the story should have been instead. For all we know, that was Lukes vision. What Im saying is something like that would have made it a easier to swallow as to why he, even for 1 second, thought of attempting to murder his nephew in his sleep.

Premade judgment based on what happens if they don't fallow your narratives and as soon as they are different you put the stamp of no good on them.. speaking generally of course.

How many people that didn't get their desired Luke version went on a mission of pure hate after the movie ? you see it all around this place people trying to break it down from all angles. If I did the same with their 10/10 will see again comic book movie they will throw fits and will make @Myrddin Wild look like an innocent little casual fan.

 

[Bob Gray]

Premade judgment based on what happens if they don't fallow your narratives and as soon as they are different you put the stamp of no good on them.. speaking generally of course.

How many people that didn't get their desired Luke version went on a mission of pure hate after the movie ? you see it all around this place people trying to break it down from all angles. If I did the same with their 10/10 will see again comic book movie they will throw fits and will make @Myrddin Wild look like an innocent little casual fan.

But Im not talking about my narrative or the story I was expecting ro wanted. Im talking the story they told and how I feel it could have gone a long way in fixing one the of the biggest problems the detractors have. The story is the same, the pivotal character change that many people arent accepting may have been easier to swallow by doing something like this.

 

[One MMA Fan]

But Im not talking about my narrative or the story I was expecting ro wanted. Im talking the story they told and how I feel it could have gone a long way in fixing one the of the biggest problems the detractors have. The story is the same, the pivotal character change that many people arent accepting may have been easier to swallow by doing something like this.

I sure as hell wouldn't want what you described.. Luke's wife impaled and shit.. forget about it.

Imagine the hate after that, this 'fans' are vicious enough as it is.

 

[D3THRONED]

Movie was garbage

 

[BisexualMMA]

I sure as hell wouldn't want what you described.. Luke's wife impaled and shit.. forget about it.

Imagine the hate after that, this 'fans' are vicious enough as it is.

I like when people put ideas out there. Put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, in these critical discussions about art.

I will agree with Bob that showing the depth and horror of these supposed visions of Kylo's evil future would have gone a long way toward justifying Luke's "arc" and his considering killing his nephew in his sleep.

However, Rian Johnson's intention was very much not to do that. He was out to show that he knew better than Star Wars fans whether Luke really deserved his previous 40 years of hero worship. The last thing on his mind was making Luke's behavior since Return of the Jedi justifiable or admirable.

 

[One MMA Fan]

I like when people put ideas out there. Put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, in these critical discussions about art.

I will agree with Bob that showing the depth and horror of these supposed visions of Kylo's evil future would have gone a long way toward justifying Luke's "arc" and his considering killing his nephew in his sleep.

However, Rian Johnson's intention was very much not to do that. He was out to show that he knew better than Star Wars fans whether Luke really deserved his previous 40 years of hero worship. The last thing on his mind was making Luke's behavior since Return of the Jedi justifiable or admirable.

There is nothing admirable about it, that was Luke's low point that was the shame and guilt that made him into the old man bitter and recluse.

The heck so many have problems getting pass that point and change.. anything except Luke epic, cool, zen hero doing full fan service stuff got us here and most of you tip tow around this issue and poke holes around everything because the 'movie is crap and others shouldn't like it other, Disney ruined Star Wars'... well okay.

 

[BisexualMMA]

There is nothing admirable about it, that was Luke's low point that was the shame and guilt that made him into the old man bitter and recluse.

The heck so many have problems getting pass that point and change.. anything except Luke epic, cool, zen hero doing full fan service stuff got us here and most of you tip tow around this issue and poke holes around everything because the 'movie is crap and others shouldn't like it other, Disney ruined Star Wars'... well okay.

Shit dude, like five posts ago you liked my post about how I won't tell you how you should feel about the movie, but here's how I feel about it.

Luke doesn't have to be super awesome all the time. In fact, what made him a great hero with a compelling arc is that he was NOT awesome all the time. He started out kind of whiny, got his ass punted through the uprights by Vader, got his hand cut off, flirted with the Dark Side at the beginning and end of Return of the Jedi, etc.

But the last time we saw him was at the end of Return of the Jedi. Rian Johnson's intention to tear down heroes is, in my opinion, plain to see and not disguised. And so all those idiot dorks that went to Star Wars conventions and dressed up like Yoda or whatever for the last 40 years had to be taught that Rian knows better. Thus we get Luke being a shit heel off camera for at least a decade, and when we finally meet him again, he's just a straight up asshole.

I've said before that one of the primary purposes of the movie was for Rian Johnson to teach us all better about Luke Skywalker. It's not the further story of Luke's character as previously written; it's a statement that we were wrong for believing what we did about him.

It's a grotesque postmodern nihilistic deconstructionist essay against heroes and heroics. Unless known heroes are being supplanted by Rian's own hero characters (Holdo and Rose), then it's okay. Even the recently created Finn (JJ's) doesn't get to be a hero.

I consider it the greatest work of auteur narcissism of the 21st Century.

 

[One MMA Fan]

In fact, what made him a great hero with a compelling arc is that he was NOT awesome all the time. He started out kind of whiny, got his ass punted through the uprights by Vader, got his hand cut off, flirted with the Dark Side at the beginning and end of Return of the Jedi, etc.

And now what did you get ?

Got his ass kicked by Kylo, temple, students, betrayed, failure anyway you look at it.

A whiny, bitter old man.

Flirted with the ideas that the Jedi got it all wrong and that he knows better.

Got taught yet another lesson by Yoda and that young aspiring naive Jedi girl.

Man upped and decided to believe again, to stop sitting on the sidelines and saves some lives and he did it in a new way that happened to be pacifistic on top of everything.


Yes that evil, dreaded man... The Last Movie that Ruin Johnson will ever direct.

 

[minute bull]

...one of the primary purposes of the movie was for Rian Johnson to teach us all better about Luke Skywalker. It's not the further story of Luke's character as previously written; it's a statement that we were wrong for believing what we did about him.

It's a grotesque postmodern nihilistic deconstructionist essay against heroes and heroics. Unless known heroes are being supplanted by Rian's own hero characters (Holdo and Rose), then it's okay. Even the recently created Finn (JJ's) doesn't get to be a hero.

I consider it the greatest work of auteur narcissism of the 21st Century.

That's horrid.

 

[BisexualMMA]

...

Inline Responses to your message...


And now what did you get ?

Got his ass kicked by Kylo, temple, students, betrayed, failure anyway you look at it [not the hero you thought he was].

A whiny, bitter old man [not the hero you thought he was].

Flirted with the ideas that the Jedi [Previous Writers] got it all wrong and that he knows better.

Got taught yet another lesson by Yoda [Rian] and that young aspiring naive Jedi girl.

Man upped and decided to believe again [Rian will let him do something kind of heroic now that all the previous heroics have been undermined, provided it's rising to Rian's challenge for him], to stop sitting on the sidelines and saves some lives and he did it in a new way that happened to be pacifistic on top of everything [the pacifist angle is interesting, admiitedly].

Yes that evil, dreaded man... The Last Movie that Ruin Johnson will ever direct.

[I don't need him to never direct again. I just hope he never again directs a sequel to previous movies he seems to despise and/or needs to supplant with "Rian-created" proper versions.]

 

[BisexualMMA]

That's horrid.

On that we agree.