STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Myrddin Wild]

Dooku doesnt need an introduction because he isnt a main antagonist taking the place of a previously defeated antagonist. So his presence doesnt make an unanswerable question. I explained this earlier.

That was a secondary thought... I even almost decided not to mention it because my point is valid without his example. Fact is that everyone understands how people become powerhouses in the force & we don't need their backstory to explain it any more.

Literally no one doesnt get that hes a powerful force user.

perhaps I'm over-estimating the level of comprehension skills the resistance has? That's actually all you need to know in order to follow the plot. His back story is irrelevant to the plot.

Bringing in outside canon to answer questions from the movie isnt a valid defense of the movie. Outside books and comics shouldnt need to fill in the blanks.

it's obvious that Snoke was the dark presence that Sidious said he felt IN THE MOVIE. It's very obvious. It gives you a lot of information right there if you just recognize that

Sidious is considered one of the most powerful Sith ever... & he felt a presence so dark that it fooked with him. That's who Snoke is. it's described in the movie & his power is displayed. That's all you need to know in order to understand about him for the plot to work. His back story is just a curiosity.

One thing I agree with you on is that when people dislike a movie, theyre prone to nitpicking. Like complaining that Rey can swim. Thats just ridiculous.

But the opposite is also true. People that like and love a movie are less likely to say "yeah, that part doesnt make much sense", even if it totally doesnt.

I feel like I'm not like that. I actually take time to listen to what people have to say & in fact I have adjusted several of my points of views based on what people have said. The reason I have such a problem discussing things with most of the resistance (& the reason I hit them with heavy troll tactics from time to time) is because they refuse to offer me the same courtesy of hearing me out. Most of them just completely ignore my key points & chime in on one little half a sentence that they can twist to mean something else.

Everything I say about the movie is the way I feel.

 

[minute bull]

The thing is no one around this parts is giving this movie any props for the stuff they did well.

Almost all the haters concede it's a beautiful film with lush imagery. It's just the story was too stupid for them to get on board, which does boggle my mind especially with Luke. I liked the juxtaposition against Legendary Endgame Luke. I can't abide the notion women are being made to look good at the expense of men in the least because I didn't find gender to be at all salient to the story.

I will say Rose kissing Finn at the end there was a little Like, I didn't know we were smooching. That's how far from the gender politics I sat while watching it. I'm not even at the point where I regard Finn and Rey's relationship as anything other than filial.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I watched it on Netflix with my kids last night. First time since I saw it in the theater.

 

[One MMA Fan]

She's awesome in The Americans.

I love her there too.

She has this charm to her.. can't wait to see her in this universe.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Snoke is a little different, he shows up out of nowhere, with emense power. Who taught him? How old is this MFer? He could have been taught centuries ago for all we know. He could be as old or even older than Yoda, I think they were trying to make him look really old, like much older than Yoda.

So to me , and most people I think his back story was more needed.

None of that is crucial to the plot. It is all just a curiosity at best. After 40 years of Star Wars & a pair of trilogies explaining how people get power, we do not "need" a back story. if this was a single new project out on it's own that just came out under a new fresh name & this happened then hey, I get the point of view that we need to know how this guy got so powerful. With 2 trilogies (& I'm not even going to mention the clone wars & Rebels series because too many need everything in the movies) we got all the information we need on how people get powerful. Snoke's back story is a "curiosity" at best. it is absolutely inessential to the plot & everyone understands how people in this universe can gain those abilities so all good.

He also didn't show up out of no where. Palpatine sensed a dark presence & just in case everyone doesn't get it... that's Snoke. So that tells us a lot about Snoke right there.

As far as the emperor sensing snoke, that’s in other writings , it you said it was in the movie too?

Which movie and where, I for the life of me can’t remember that at any point in the movies(but I don’t know the prequels that well)

I'll have to look into it. I don't recall the exact source.

We know from movie scenes they are not following the sith rule of two, with The Knights of Ren, or are they?

The Knights of Ren have only been shown in flashbacks. Did snoke have Kylo kill all of the Knights of ren when snoke found him, for the rule of two?

Why Ren? Why Kylo Ren, why not Darth Kylo? He’s not a darth, so either he’s still apprentice stage or they aren’t sith.

But Ren was a sith, and ancient one, is Ren still around, and Kylo is his apprentice, unknown to snoke and that’s why he killed him?

Snoke's not a Sith. So that answers a lot of those questions... & I find your breakdown here to have answered a very important question that I thought was only answered in the novels. Until you mentioned it I didn't think there was anything in the movie which indicated that Snoke wasn't a Sith. however, as you have pointed out... neither Snoke nor Kylo have the prefix "Darth." So that right there is evidence from the movie that Snoke is not a Sith.

I'm trying to play by the resistance's rules where they insist that everything be in the movie. Fact is, it's about as fair as McGregor fighting Floyd & not being allowed to use his full arsenal. The resistance has these rules in which we have to fight under when the broader field is so much greater.

The knights of Ren were Luke's students who had gained such an allegiance to Kylo that they followed him after he destroyed Luke's temple. We don't know what happened to them, but I would assume since they were brought into the story that they will appear in act 3.

There are so many angles we can go from this, but leaving Snokes backstory open, allows them to go what ever direction the new director chooses, which I think inpart helps not piss people off when the new director doesn’t follow the expected direction of the previous one.

Well said, it allows a fluidity to exist. but those half a dozen people from the resistance seem to be hung up on the fact that every single thing wasn't revealed to them in act 2 of 3.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I guess I'm the only one perfectly okay with Luke dying.

I'm good


I'm fine with how he died as well.

Most people have an issue with the fact that he showed human emotions... despite the fact that he was a winey kid to begin with.

 

[chickenluver]

Most people have an issue with the fact that he showed human emotions

You've said bullshit like this before when you claimed people were mad that they "made Luke human."

Luke was already human, he showed human emotions. This movie turned him into a coward and a fuck-up who was perfectly fine letting all his family and friends be murdered and the galaxy falling back into tyrannical rule. He lost all of his ideals and values. It wasn't character development, it was character regression.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

You've said bullshit like this before when you claimed people were mad that they "made Luke human."

Luke was already human, he showed human emotions. This movie turned him into a coward and a fuck-up who was perfectly fine letting all his family and friends be murdered and the galaxy falling back into tyrannical rule. He lost all of his ideals and values. It wasn't character development, it was character regression.

& then he saved the day & it cost him his life.

 

[minute bull]

..... it was character regression.

Now it's my time to start my response the same way you started yours, but how is it regression? Whether he lost his ideals and values, or abandoned them -- he recovers them and reignites his own legendary status to himself. That's not enough of a redemption for the morass JJ Abrams put us in?

 

[90 50]

None of that is crucial to the plot. It is all just a curiosity at best. After 40 years of Star Wars & a pair of trilogies explaining how people get power, we do not "need" a back story. if this was a single new project out on it's own that just came out under a new fresh name & this happened then hey, I get the point of view that we need to know how this guy got so powerful. With 2 trilogies (& I'm not even going to mention the clone wars & Rebels series because too many need everything in the movies) we got all the information we need on how people get powerful. Snoke's back story is a "curiosity" at best. it is absolutely inessential to the plot & everyone understands how people in this universe can gain those abilities so all good.

He also didn't show up out of no where. Palpatine sensed a dark presence & just in case everyone doesn't get it... that's Snoke. So that tells us a lot about Snoke right there.

I'll have to look into it. I don't recall the exact source.

Snoke's not a Sith. So that answers a lot of those questions... & I find your breakdown here to have answered a very important question that I thought was only answered in the novels. Until you mentioned it I didn't think there was anything in the movie which indicated that Snoke wasn't a Sith. however, as you have pointed out... neither Snoke nor Kylo have the prefix "Darth." So that right there is evidence from the movie that Snoke is not a Sith.

I'm trying to play by the resistance's rules where they insist that everything be in the movie. Fact is, it's about as fair as McGregor fighting Floyd & not being allowed to use his full arsenal. The resistance has these rules in which we have to fight under when the broader field is so much greater.

The knights of Ren were Luke's students who had gained such an allegiance to Kylo that they followed him after he destroyed Luke's temple. We don't know what happened to them, but I would assume since they were brought into the story that they will appear in act 3.

Well said, it allows a fluidity to exist. but those half a dozen people from the resistance seem to be hung up on the fact that every single thing wasn't revealed to them in act 2 of 3.

I thought it was clear in the movie that Snoke was not a Sith, but unclear if Kylo was or not. Hence the Ren reference who Infact was a sith, but never mentioned in the movies, so they might not ever link that at all.

I really would like you to find where in the movies Palpatine mentioned a dark presence. I’m pretty sure that’s only in non movie, and maybe even in non canon reference.

Since this discussion is about the movies, and not everyone(most people don’t actually) research other outlets, things the movies leave off can be of importance to viewers understanding of where someone comes from.

And it is still open to the possibility than Ren somehow was directing Kylo to kill snoke.

We probably will never get answers to those questions, just how they have never directly answered yodas “there is another”

Since there have been a bunch in canon refeences

 

[Bob Gray]

Most people have an issue with the fact that he showed human emotions... despite the fact that he was a winey kid to begin with.

Literally no one has this problem.

 

[Bob Gray]

I really would like you to find where in the movies Palpatine mentioned a dark presence. I’m pretty sure that’s only in non movie, and maybe even in non canon reference.

Its not from the movies. Its from the Aftermath book trilogy.

https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2017...nts-snokes-place-origin-palpatine-connection/

Before Palpatine’s demise at the hands of the rebels, the computers finished their calculations, finally finding a way through the unknown. The Emperor was convined that something waited for him out there – some origin of the force, some dark presence formed of malevolent substance. The Emperor called it a signal – conveniently one that only he could hear. Even his greatest enforcer, Vader, seemed oblivious to it…

Seems like inferring that its somehow Snoke is a mostly guesswork. maybe initially that could have worked by making him some sort of powerfful force user with some kind of previously unknown abilities/teachings. But Johnson killed him off so itd be stupid to make him this "dark presence".

 

[minute bull]

Literally no one has this problem.

I don't know if you're being serious, but he isn't.

That's the biggest problem ITT, and usually we call it "moving goalposts" or "defending our points" -- largely because we take too much time responding to a point that was made facetiously or responding to a point that wasn't made at all (veering into Strawman Argument territory).

It's because rather than seek compromise or understanding, we retrench ourselves and nitpick other people's posts. That's why I keep telling people I understand their gripes, but still that doesn't help tear down any walls tho.

 

[Bob Gray]

I don't know if you're being serious, but he isn't.

That's the biggest problem ITT, and usually we call it "moving goalposts" or "defending our points" -- largely because we take too much time responding to a point that was made facetiously or responding to a point that wasn't made at all (veering into Strawman Argument territory).

It's because rather than seek compromise or understanding, we retrench ourselves and nitpick other people's posts. That's why I keep telling people I understand their gripes, but still that doesn't help tear down any walls tho.

Im being as serious as he is.

 

[minute bull]

...objectively?

 

[90 50]

Now it's my time to start my response the same way you started yours, but how is it regression? Whether he lost his ideals and values, or abandoned them -- he recovers them and reignites his own legendary status to himself. That's not enough of a redemption for the morass JJ Abrams put us in?

It’s character regression “from a certain point of view”, In the fact that we know he failed Kylo and let snoke corrupt him, and we get the idea he’s gone looking for answers on how to fix this. Han tells us he left looking for the origins of the Jedi order or is presumed again to remedy the dreaded situation at hand, and leave a freaking map to where he is , if he is needed in dire times.

Then we get Rians version of him being a hermit, going to an almost impossible to find place to die.

It’s not why we were told he left, and makes zero sence he would leave a puzzle map to where he went to be alone and die.

It’s not what was layout out to us, and not what many where wanting, and why it sat so poorly with a lot of people.

 

[minute bull]

So I'm going to assume "regression" means something more in addition to what I think it means. Are you saying he regressed to that point in ESB of wanting to take his own life?

Han tells us he left looking for the origins of the Jedi order or is presumed again to remedy the dreaded situation at hand, and leave a freaking map to where he is , if he is needed in dire times.

I'm going to try to look this up, but I don't know that Han said all that. I don't know TFA like I know TLJ. Can you provide the clip?

EDIT: Is it this?

...makes zero sence he would leave a puzzle map to where he went to be alone and die.

I'm not sure he left the map or wanted to leave any clues. Can you point to where that indicates this?

From these discussions, I came to understand the map to Luke was something cobbled together by R2 downloading data from the Empire way back when + something something something to do with Max Von Sydow -- but I am unclear.

 

[90 50]

So I'm going to assume "regression" means something more in addition to what I think it means. Are you saying he regressed to that point in ESB of wanting to take his own life?


I'm going to try to look this up, but I don't know that Han said all that. I don't know TFA like I know TLJ. Can you provide the clip?

EDIT: Is it this?


I'm not sure he left the map or wanted to leave any clues. Can you point to where that indicates this?

From these discussions, I came to understand the map to Luke was something cobbled together by R2 downloading data from the Empire way back when + something something something to do with Max Von Sydow -- but I am unclear.

“ he went looking for the first Jedi temple”

Now we have to deduct there is a reason to go looking for that instead of just off somewhere to die.

If that was the case why not just go to Tatooine and live in obi wans place, or even to degobah, or just anywhere unknown, why the first Jedi temple specifically.

And we never really find out if that’s the first Jedi temple or not , with the old books presumably there could have been another more remote origin, possibly in the uncharted territories

 

[minute bull]

If that was the case why not just go to Tatooine and live in obi wans place, or even to degobah, or just anywhere unknown, why the first Jedi temple specifically.

Because it's, and don't quote me on this, "unfindable."

“ he went looking for the first Jedi temple”

 

[Da Speeit]

The thing is no one around this parts is giving this movie any props for the stuff they did well.

Overall this movie ain't anywhere to how bad some are making it out to be.

Not to mention the cherry on top this looked gorgeous, beautiful.. that final battle was just art.

This wide shot.. forget about it.

would have been cool if any of this meant anything but it's just fucking stupid and pointless. What a fucking horrible movie