Economy Should we provide migrants with housing, welfare, medical, etc..?

[Jack V Savage]

We had 119 million Americans when the Statue of Liberty was giving to us and now we have well over 340 million Citizens and the melting pot has boiled over. Those Free Loading Illegal aliens have not worked harder or done more to earn their citizenship because they aren't actual citizens and shouldn't be because they aren't following the legal process. Every illegal immigrant is pissing on those who came here legally and only hurt the minority communities that democrats pretend every election cycle they care so much for.

We now enjoy a standard of living that was unimaginable when the statue was given to us, with immigration making a large contribution to that growth.

 

[Lucas1980]

We now enjoy a standard of living that was unimaginable when the statue was given to us, with immigration making a large contribution to that growth.

And we want to destroy that standard of living with an uncontrollable invasion of relentless illegal immigration...that makes zero sense.

 

[Jack V Savage]

And we want to destroy that standard of living with an uncontrollable invasion of relentless illegal immigration...that makes zero sense.

No, people want to continue to improve it.

 

[BFoe]

Moral of the story: close your fucking borders it's not that complicated.

It’s actually extremely complicated.

Firstly, our border is about 3145 miles long, and the Rio Grande River makes up about 1000 miles of it. You can’t build a wall on either side of it, nor can you (nor would you want to) build some sort barrier down the middle of it. Mountains also make up some of this, where building a wall or barrier just isn’t feasible. The mountain itself is the barrier, but isn’t insurmountable.

Additionally, much of the land on the US side of the border is private land. It belongs to American citizens, mainly farmers and ranchers. What George W Bush found when he tried to build walls and fences on that land is, citizens challenge eminent domain claims, it goes to court, and typically the government loses. If the government wins, you hurt American citizens and directly harm these ranchers and farmers.

Thirdly, it’s pretty much agreed by anyone who studies the issue, that an actual full closure of the border would be an absolute economic catastrophe.

Don’t get me wrong, the border and the immigration issue in general is a shitshow, no doubt. But usually people who say “just close the border down” are people who don’t fully understand the geography of the border, the treaties and trade deals involved, the dependence that the southern states have on Mexico as an import/export partner, and the dependence southern states have on migrant workers to maintain their own exports and economy.

 

[Jack V Savage]

It’s actually extremely complicated.

Firstly, our border is about 3145 miles long, and the Rio Grande River makes up about 1000 miles of it. You can’t build a wall on either side of it, nor can you (nor would you want to) build some sort barrier down the middle of it. Mountains also make up some of this, where building a wall or barrier just isn’t feasible. The mountain itself is the barrier, but isn’t insurmountable.

Additionally, much of the land on the US side of the border is private land. It belongs to American citizens, mainly farmers and ranchers. What George W Bush found when he tried to build walls and fences on that land is, citizens challenge eminent domain claims, it goes to court, and typically the government loses. If the government wins, you hurt American citizens and directly harm these ranchers and farmers.

Thirdly, it’s pretty much agreed by anyone who studies the issue, that an actual full closure of the border would be an absolute economic catastrophe.

Don’t get me wrong, the border and the immigration issue in general is a shitshow, no doubt. But usually people who say “just close the border down” are people who don’t fully understand the geography of the border, the treaties and trade deals involved, the dependence that the southern states have on Mexico as an import/export partner, and the dependence southern states have on migrant workers to maintain their own exports and economy.

I think there are a bunch of sort of related issues that come up in these discussions. You get people who think that others *want* open borders or that borders actually are open, which is crazy. Then you get people who make false claims about the fiscal or economic impact of immigration, or specifically illegal immigration. Then there's a potential real discussion about the tradeoffs and about ideal immigration policy. But it's hard to get there because people go to one, and then two, and then that leads to attempts to argue against one and two.

And then our current issues are related more to the asylum process, which is getting flooded, and we don't have the capacity to evaluate claims. So what do you do about the long list of people waiting? You can have them wait in miserable conditions, which is bad; or you can allow them to look for work and provide some aid, which incentivizes more claims. What Trump tried to do was lean on the first one, which naturally (and rightly) drew outrage from the public. Biden hasn't gone fully away from that, and he's tried to focus more on the root causes and getting other countries to handle the issues. That's probably a better long-term approach, but there's obviously a lag.

 

[avenue94]

We had 119 million Americans when the Statue of Liberty was giving to us and now we have well over 340 million Citizens and the melting pot has boiled over.

What resources have not kept up with population growth due to actual finite natural limits?

hose Free Loading Illegal aliens have not worked harder or done more to earn their citizenship because they aren't actual citizens and shouldn't be because they aren't following the legal process

How are they freeloading? And are you really arguing that someone who went out of their way to up and move to another country with no guarantees have done less to earn a slot in the American family they you or I who just happened to be born in the right country?

Every illegal immigrant is pissing on those who came here legally and only hurt the minority communities that democrats pretend every election cycle they care so much for.

You realize that for most of America's history, as long as am immigrant wanted to come to the US, they literally just had to show up and sign some papers after quarantine?

 

[Lucas1980]

What resources have not kept up with population growth due to actual finite natural limits?

Have you not been paying any attention to whats going on to the small towns and cities theyre invading? Its clear there aren't enough resources.

How are they freeloading? And are you really arguing that someone who went out of their way to up and move to another country with no guarantees have done less to earn a slot in the American family they you or I who just happened to be born in the right country?

They are freeloading because they are breaking into a country illegally and expecting housing, food, etc and the expense of the Americans who are already struggling and can barely afford groceries and rent especially since 2021. And yes if your born into America then you have won the lottery and are blessed to be born in one of the greatest countries.

You realize that for most of America's history, as long as am immigrant wanted to come to the US, they literally just had to show up and sign some papers after quarantine?

In modern American practice its the law that you enter here legally and follow the legal process. Its 2024 and not 1924. If anything America should adopt Mexicos immigration policies at this point.

 

[avenue94]

Have you not been paying any attention to whats going on to the small towns and cities theyre invading? Its clear there aren't enough resources.

What resources? You're just spouting generalities and ignoring that if you constrain people to certain geographic areas, that can strain local resources. If you just increased legal immigration, people would be able to move around within the country and the market would adjust supply and demand accordingly.

They are freeloading because they are breaking into a country illegally and expecting housing, food, etc and the expense of the Americans who are already struggling and can barely afford groceries and rent especially since 2021. And yes if your born into America then you have won the lottery and are blessed to be born in one of the greatest countries.

Everyone moves into a new country expecting the world. The question is, what welfare programs do illegal immigrants have access to that you don't want them to access?

In modern American practice its the law that you enter here legally and follow the legal process. Its 2024 and not 1924. If anything America should adopt Mexicos immigration policies at this point.

The math is pretty simple. The US has a shortage of workers and could also benefit from more people paying into the social safety net. The population is under replacement rate if you set immigration aside, which is very bad.

It's a pretty simple problem. If 1,000 people retire, but only 900 people enter the workforce, how are you expecting to make up that tax difference?

 

[Seano]

For a limited time, yes. After say, 6 months, they should have to be citizens and have a job and provide these things for themselves like decent people are expected to.

 

[Seano]

It's a pretty simple problem. If 1,000 people retire, but only 900 people enter the workforce, how are you expecting to make up that tax difference?

I guess the answer is to exploit people with no choices and pay them a wage we wouldn't expect our children to work for.

 

[avenue94]

I guess the answer is to exploit people with no choices and pay them a wage we wouldn't expect our children to work for.

Or you could offer a path to citizenship so that folks get the same protections as citizens. I'm not endorsing illegal immigrants subsidizing the lives and spending habits of US citizens, but it's undeniable that they do. You can't pretend that it doesn't happen, it's just a matter of how you want to leverage it or not.

Labor is like any other product, if you want higher standards and less exploitation, bring it out of the black or gray market so you can regulate it.

 

[Lucas1980]

I wonder how many of these people that are pro mass-immigration and even crazier illegal immigration would feel the same way if the only places these people were coming from were Venezuela and Cuba. I also wonder how many of them would be willing to invite these illegal immigrants into their homes and take care of them. They don't actually see them as people or care about filling farm jobs but they see them as potential voters for their party.

 

[avenue94]

I wonder how many of these people that are pro mass-immigration and even crazier illegal immigration would feel the same way if the only places these people were coming from were Venezuela and Cuba. I also wonder how many of them would be willing to invite these illegal immigrants into their homes and take care of them. They don't actually see them as people or care about filling farm jobs but they see them as potential voters for their party.

Democrats don't see immigrants as future voters. Many immigrant populations lean conservative on key issues and could be persuaded to vote Republican. It's just the GOP has made itself so toxic to immigrants, period.

Also, you realize Cubans are effectively treated like how people erroneously think illegal immigrants are treated. They just have to make it to US soil, and they are golden for the most part.

 

[Lucas1980]

Democrats don't see immigrants as future voters. Many immigrant populations lean conservative on key issues and could be persuaded to vote Republican. It's just the GOP has made itself so toxic to immigrants, period.

Also, you realize Cubans are effectively treated like how people erroneously think illegal immigrants are treated. They just have to make it to US soil, and they are golden for the most part.

Democrats do indeed see immigrants as future voters and they would 100 percent change their tune if these were mainly Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants......That's why Democrats are pushing so hard for mass immigration. Its not the GOP that has made itself toxic to immigrants but the Democrats and the media outlets they control have done an effective job in doing so, Republicans need to learn to take a page out of their book. I'm neither a Democrat or Republican but an American who knows there is no country without a strong secure Border.

 

[avenue94]

Democrats do indeed see immigrants as future voters and they would 100 percent change their tune if these were mainly Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants......That's why Democrats are pushing so hard for mass immigration.

So why did Democrats support Wet Feet, Dry Feet for so long? Florida is a supremely important state for national elections.

Its not the GOP that has made itself toxic to immigrants but the Democrats and the media outlets they control have done an effective job in doing so, Republicans need to learn to take a page out of their book

Lol oh right it's the media. Can you explain to me how the media made Pete Wilson support Prop 187? That was the end of GOP being able to reliably count on Asian American voters, since I'm guessing you don't know that.

And what media was responsible for the GOP losing one of its last SoCal strongholds in Little Saigon?

I'm neither a Democrat or Republican but an American who knows there is no country without a strong secure Border.

If there is no country without a strong, secure border, how the fuck was America a country in 1840? Do you meant to tell me America didn't become a country until the 20th century?

 

[Jack V Savage]

I wonder how many of these people that are pro mass-immigration and even crazier illegal immigration would feel the same way if the only places these people were coming from were Venezuela and Cuba. I also wonder how many of them would be willing to invite these illegal immigrants into their homes and take care of them. They don't actually see them as people or care about filling farm jobs but they see them as potential voters for their party.

To be clear, I'm not at all for illegal immigration, and I'm not aware of any mainstream politician who is. That's a strawman. "Mass immigration" is kind of a meaningless term, though I think we should definitely increase immigration levels. And the reason is that they get jobs and contribute to the economy and general quality of life of Americans. The idea is not to bring over people to be unemployed. Also, it has nothing to do with how they vote (and your assumptions there aren't even accurate).

 

[blackheart]

With the right tax structure, we can and should provide those things universally.

Of course when those things aren't even being provided to citizens, there is no room to talk about potentially providing those things to immigrants. But we aren't providing those things to immigrants, so its a dishonest question to start with.

 

[Lucas1980]

So why did Democrats support Wet Feet, Dry Feet for so long? Florida is a supremely important state for national elections.

Lol oh right it's the media. Can you explain to me how the media made Pete Wilson support Prop 187? That was the end of GOP being able to reliably count on Asian American voters, since I'm guessing you don't know that.

And what media was responsible for the GOP losing one of its last SoCal strongholds in Little Saigon?

If there is no country without a strong, secure border, how the fuck was America a country in 1840? Do you meant to tell me America didn't become a country until the 20th century?

I love arguing with a Democrat that Democrats don't want immigration solely on votes and then has to bring it back to 1840...yep nothings changed since then...Laughing

 

[Two Crows]

What housing assistance and food assistance programs do illegal immigrants have access to?

That, but they also contribute through payroll tax in a rather big way.

For a population under replacement rate, it certainly does.

There's quite a bit of room to increase tax rates to align more with other countries. For example, if Social Security is your concern, removing the payroll tax phase out would go a long way.

Your first question is the subject of the thread, isn't it?
"Should we provide migrants with housing, welfare, medical, etc.?"
Isn't that what we are discussing?

Your second point is not necessarily valid. WHO is being admitted is relevant along with contribution per capita vs. cost. Gross population increase does not solve budgetary issues, as the same volume of contributors are also recipients. The contributions must be greater than the costs to help reduce budget deficit.

Ex. If you allow 10 immigrants who contribute an average of $1/day, but cost $2/day in benefits, you've increased your total population AND debt simultaneously.

Payroll tax isn't "phasing out", that's political junk speech to confuse those who don't understand the system. If you mean "remove the maximum income on FICA from $168,600", then just say you don't feel 42% is enough from the top 1% and tell us what you feel is justified. Note that this is a payroll tax, so those wealthy enough to not work won't be affected at all.

Also, keep in mind, the whole "just tax the rich for everything" is a child-like mentality that isn't actually feasible in the real-world. The total net-worth of the Top 1% is under $50 trillion; you could take everything they have and you wouldn't cover a single decade of transfers as they are today, never mind adding more.

Lastly, could you tell what nations you are thinking of so I could look at their taxation system? I have a strong feeling most US citizens won't like it one bit, lol.

 

[Lucas1980]

To be clear, I'm not at all for illegal immigration, and I'm not aware of any mainstream politician who is. That's a strawman. "Mass immigration" is kind of a meaningless term, though I think we should definitely increase immigration levels. And the reason is that they get jobs and contribute to the economy and general quality of life of Americans. The idea is not to bring over people to be unemployed. Also, it has nothing to do with how they vote (and your assumptions there aren't even accurate).

Its 100 percent based on how they vote especially now that Democrats feel they're starting to lose their Black voter base as they're wising up. Unskilled immigrants in no way contribute to the general quality of American life but take from it.