SBS comparison of the last decade - Aldo vs Max vs Conor

[Bobbybackpack]

Those that pick Aldo clearly prefer quantity over quality. It's just because his streak was longer. Max and Conor both beat HIM. We can't just pretend that didn't happen.

Max current winning streak is only a few wins short of Aldo's UFC and WEC combined streak. Plus he beat the man himself TWICE! Max is the GOAT.

 

[Wise1]

...Max current winning streak is only a few wins short of Aldo's UFC and WEC combined streak. Plus he beat the man himself TWICE! ...

Very valid points.

...Max is the GOAT.

Very reasonable conclusion.

 

[Shaddows]

@Wise1

Sorry, but that's not good judgement.
Conor won 3 round fights. Aldo fought 5 round fights.

Conor consistently didn’t need 3 rounds to win. Aldo consistently needed 5.

Sorry, but what are you smoking?
Conor won 19 fights via KO/Sub. Aldo won 18.
That's one fight difference.

Aldo had to beat Cub Swanson to get a title shot.
Conor beat Siver, who was #13 in the rankings when he signed the bout agreement to fight Conor He immediately he jumped to #10, and a win over Siver gave Conor a title shot.

That’s just disingenuous and you know it. Siver was just a little cherry on top, Conor was already getting the title shot.

That's even worse. He was getting a title shot even WITHOUT beating anyone from the top 10. That's while you had guys like Mendes or Frankie at the top, which he avoided completely.


Conor was active while Aldo was not....
That's a myth. Aldo fought 5 times in one year before becoming the champion, a thing Conor never did.
Aldo fought 4 times a year, with the 4th fight being for the WEC belt. That was more active than Conor, who fought 3 times a year before getting the belt( and we've seen how active Conor was as a champion).
Bottom line, when climbing up the ladder, most fighters are a lot more active than the champion. Blaming Aldo for not fighting as much as Conor (while Conor was not the champ) is asinine and misleading.

Not sure who you’re addressing as I’ve never seen anyone make this claim. Do that stats I provided exhibit this? If so, I honestly hadn’t noticed.

Just some more biased comments by blind Conor fans against ALdo. I killed it before you could add this . Sorry for killing an excuse before you could say it.

And in all other categories, Aldo beats Max. And Max himself noted Aldo is GOAT.

I’m lost, what categories?
...
Max is being humble and paying respect, very GOAT-like qualities wouldn’t you agree?

quite the opposite. He had full right to Gloat. And the fact you are trying to claim he is GOAT over ALdo shows the basis for which he could have said that he is.
And yet he yields to Aldo. Because he knows Aldo warrants that respect. OLe you are not giving him.


He is young, he has a lot of time.
But putting all stakes on a hungry and young Max beating a slowing down Aldo? That's obviously so wrong Max himself disagrees with you.

So by your assertion Aldo was “slowing down” when he fought Max even though he was up to speed for Edgar? Was he “slowing down” when Conor slept him?

Sorry, but THAT's Max being respectful while using it to toot his own horn (he beat a prime Aldo).
We both know Aldo has not been the same since his KO loss to Conor. It obviously took a tool on his confidence.
But please explain to me how you can claim he is the dominant Aldo from before.

Look, I am not saying Max won't surpass Aldo.
But comparing anyone NOT a champion with a champion, the comparison are skewed.
Lat that person become a champion, THEN compare their run while at the top.

I don’t agree that you have to wait until someone becomes a champion especially when that someone is fighting a lot of the same guys as the champion.

You can disagree all you want. Your disagreement is irrelevant.


Because if Max would stop fighting TODAY, Aldo is still far ahead of him as the GOAT of FW division. And that is the bottom line.
(I mean, just look at Cain! At one point, he was lauded as GOAT... then he never fought again. Anyone picking him over Fedor? I don't think so...
but if he would have continued his reign? Then possibly he would have surpassed Fedor by now.

But bottom line, he did not. and that is what counts.

Many still think that Cain was/is the HW GOAT and I’m one of those people. DC is one of those people, Rogan is one of those people...

...and all do they all have in common? they either work for the UFC, or are training partners with Cain. So please don't be so dishonest as you put it like their "opinion" are unbiased.

Here’s to hoping he does return in 2019 and gives some clarification on the matter.

...Amen brother!!

...

When I consider the GOAT of a weight class, imo the key to the formula is to have the candidates face each other and see who wins. That is rare, to be able to have them face each other but in the case of FW we’ve been blessed as fans. We will never see Cain vs Fedor so all we can do is speculate but with FW, we don’t have to. Of course you have to weigh body of work into the equation and that’s why this matter is up for debate... and IT IS up for debate.

Sorry, but it isn't. Everyone always said: when you are the champion, you got a target on your back. Everyone is looking to beat you.
And the champ is now fighting to keep his belt. They now have something to lose.
You can definitely see the changes in fighters before and after they get the belt. Woodley is a great example.
I am glad Max is not. But as our first point noted, neither was Aldo....until he got UFC Gold. By his own admission he started taking less chances, so he could KEEP the gold.

And as I noted: Claiming someone is GOAT because they have the "potential" to be GOAT is asinine and misleading.
They have to have accomplished more than the guy they are toppling.
Max himself said he is not there yet.
Same with GSP. He was not GOAT after beating Hughes. he had to stay at the top and dominate the division long enough to surpass Hughes. This is the way it should be.

 

[Kleinschuster]

Aldo until Max defends two more times IMO.

Aldo's winstreak was insane. But Max beat him twice and has an insane WS himself.

Conor just KO'd Aldo - might have been a fluke alá JDS vs. Cain I or might be legit - we don't know. His run in general wasn't impressive (didn't fight a murderer row to get TS, nor defended).

 

[Wise1]

@Shaddows

Sorry, but that's not good judgement.
Conor won 3 round fights. Aldo fought 5 round fights.

Conor consistently didn’t need 3 rounds to win. Aldo consistently needed 5.

Sorry, but what are you smoking?
Conor won 19 fights via KO/Sub. Aldo won 18.
That's one fight difference.

In the UFC, up until they fought each other, Conor had six fights and Aldo had seven. Conor had one UD, Aldo had five.

Aldo had to beat Cub Swanson to get a title shot.
Conor beat Siver, who was #13 in the rankings when he signed the bout agreement to fight Conor He immediately he jumped to #10, and a win over Siver gave Conor a title shot.

That’s just disingenuous and you know it. Siver was just a little cherry on top, Conor was already getting the title shot.

That's even worse. He was getting a title shot even WITHOUT beating anyone from the top 10. That's while you had guys like Mendes or Frankie at the top, which he avoided completely.

Don’t know if you’re playing dumb or just weren’t paying attention at the time... there was no disputing Conor being worthy of the title shot. With the exception of the “he never faced a wrestler” crowd who got their fill when Aldo dropped out and he had to face Mendes, everyone agreed Conor had earned his shot.

Conor was active while Aldo was not....
That's a myth. Aldo fought 5 times in one year before becoming the champion, a thing Conor never did.
Aldo fought 4 times a year, with the 4th fight being for the WEC belt. That was more active than Conor, who fought 3 times a year before getting the belt( and we've seen how active Conor was as a champion).
Bottom line, when climbing up the ladder, most fighters are a lot more active than the champion. Blaming Aldo for not fighting as much as Conor (while Conor was not the champ) is asinine and misleading.

Not sure who you’re addressing as I’ve never seen anyone make this claim. Do that stats I provided exhibit this? If so, I honestly hadn’t noticed.

Just some more biased comments by blind Conor fans against ALdo. I killed it before you could add this . Sorry for killing an excuse before you could say it.

And in all other categories, Aldo beats Max. And Max himself noted Aldo is GOAT.

I’m lost, what categories?
...
Max is being humble and paying respect, very GOAT-like qualities wouldn’t you agree?

quite the opposite. He had full right to Gloat. And the fact you are trying to claim he is GOAT over ALdo shows the basis for which he could have said that he is.
And yet he yields to Aldo. Because he knows Aldo warrants that respect. OLe you are not giving him.


He is young, he has a lot of time.
But putting all stakes on a hungry and young Max beating a slowing down Aldo? That's obviously so wrong Max himself disagrees with you.

So by your assertion Aldo was “slowing down” when he fought Max even though he was up to speed for Edgar? Was he “slowing down” when Conor slept him?

Sorry, but THAT's Max being respectful while using it to toot his own horn (he beat a prime Aldo).
We both know Aldo has not been the same since his KO loss to Conor. It obviously took a tool on his confidence.
But please explain to me how you can claim he is the dominant Aldo from before.

Let me just establish a baseline here with you, so you’re saying Aldo was up-to-speed vs Conor but not vs Max, is that right? You’re also saying that when Aldo beat Frankie the second time, though he beat him more convincingly than the first time, that wasn’t even an up-to-speed Aldo?

Look, I am not saying Max won't surpass Aldo.
But comparing anyone NOT a champion with a champion, the comparison are skewed.
Lat that person become a champion, THEN compare their run while at the top.

I don’t agree that you have to wait until someone becomes a champion especially when that someone is fighting a lot of the same guys as the champion.

You can disagree all you want. Your disagreement is irrelevant.


Because if Max would stop fighting TODAY, Aldo is still far ahead of him as the GOAT of FW division. And that is the bottom line.
(I mean, just look at Cain! At one point, he was lauded as GOAT... then he never fought again. Anyone picking him over Fedor? I don't think so...
but if he would have continued his reign? Then possibly he would have surpassed Fedor by now.

But bottom line, he did not. and that is what counts.

Many still think that Cain was/is the HW GOAT and I’m one of those people. DC is one of those people, Rogan is one of those people...

...and all do they all have in common? they either work for the UFC, or are training partners with Cain. So please don't be so dishonest as you put it like their "opinion" are unbiased.


Here’s to hoping he does return in 2019 and gives some clarification on the matter.

...Amen brother!!

Amen.
...

When I consider the GOAT of a weight class, imo the key to the formula is to have the candidates face each other and see who wins. That is rare, to be able to have them face each other but in the case of FW we’ve been blessed as fans. We will never see Cain vs Fedor so all we can do is speculate but with FW, we don’t have to. Of course you have to weigh body of work into the equation and that’s why this matter is up for debate... and IT IS up for debate.

Sorry, but it isn't. Everyone always said: when you are the champion, you got a target on your back. Everyone is looking to beat you.
And the champ is now fighting to keep his belt. They now have something to lose.
You can definitely see the changes in fighters before and after they get the belt. Woodley is a great example.
I am glad Max is not. But as our first point noted, neither was Aldo....until he got UFC Gold. By his own admission he started taking less chances, so he could KEEP the gold.

And as I noted: Claiming someone is GOAT because they have the "potential" to be GOAT is asinine and misleading.
They have to have accomplished more than the guy they are toppling.
Max himself said he is not there yet.
Same with GSP. He was not GOAT after beating Hughes. he had to stay at the top and dominate the division long enough to surpass Hughes. This is the way it should be.

I’m not projecting based on potential, I’m talking right now.

 

[boss429]

Aldo is the FW GOAT body of work

Max is slowly building his legacy and could surpass Aldo

Conor is a super talented fighter on an elite level but due to lack of title defenses we can only say he is better than Max and Aldo from a fighter perspective

Not sure we can even really say that. All we saw out of them was each landing a bomb on eachother so all we can really say is he hit's harder than Aldo since he never gave him the rematch and actually proved himself the superior fighter.

Ask yourself who on Conors record excluding a version of Max that I don't think anyone would argue was anywhere near ready for a title shot would Aldo not be the favorite to beat as well? I think the answer is nobody and Aldo likely never gets subbed by Nate either because he is the more well rounded and over all skilled of the two.

 

[Marc A]

Not sure we can even really say that. All we saw out of them was each landing a bomb on eachother so all we can really say is he hit's harder than Aldo since he never gave him the rematch and actually proved himself the superior fighter.

Ask yourself who on Conors record excluding a version of Max that I don't think anyone would argue was anywhere near ready for a title shot would Aldo not be the favorite to beat as well? I think the answer is nobody and Aldo likely never gets subbed by Nate either because he is the more well rounded and over all skilled of the two.

You can definitively say Conor is better than Aldo and Max during Conor's fw run

 

[boss429]

You can definitively say Conor is better than Aldo and Max during Conor's fw run

No you really can't since during that run Aldo was beating 4 #1 contenders while Conor only even fought 2 guys in the top 5 at the time including Aldo.

Max fought Aldo twice to prove beating the goat of the division the first time wasn't an anomaly and despite losing 4 of 6 rounds did in fact prove he has Aldo's number. Much like Weidman did against Silva.

Fighters with the legacy and credentials of those too deserve the chance at redemption after everything they've done and true warriors like Max and Chris give them that chance to prove to themselves they are indeed better. Conor should have had enough respect and confidence to do this as well like he said he would and then we would know if what you're saying is actually true or not.

 

[Marc A]

No you really can't since during that run Aldo was beating 4 #1 contenders while Conor only even fought 2 guys in the top 5 at the time including Aldo.

Max fought Aldo twice to prove beating the goat of the division the first time wasn't an anomaly and despite losing 4 of 6 rounds did in fact prove he has Aldo's number. Much like Weidman did against Silva.

Fighters with the legacy and credentials of those too deserve the chance at redemption after everything they've done and true warriors like Max and Chris give them that chance to prove to themselves they are indeed better. Conor should have had enough respect and confidence to do this as well like he said he would and then we would know if what you're saying is actually true or not.

Conor beat Aldo and Max , no amount of paragraphs that rival Black is going change that

He is better than both at FW

 

[boss429]

Conor beat Aldo and Max , no amount of paragraphs that rival Black is going change that

He is better than both at FW

Well obviously this is pointless but the stats don't really back up your claim. He was better than them on the night sure but over all is still a question mark since they are both far more accomplished in the division than him.

 

[PeacePipe]

2008 - current day



When discussing who is the FW GOAT, what are we asking exactly? What is the criteria? What and when is relevant... who and how isn’t?

​

I feel like when deciding a weight division GOAT, you have to go with who took on all comers, defended numerous times, and had the longest reign.

I think Connor was the most exciting FW, but he left to pursue bigger tings, boxing and whiskey, so we sadly never got to see his true potential
Max has the most potential, but he has to exceed that potential to really be in the conversation as he only has a few defences
Aldo has the best claim at the moment, he has the extended period of dominance, the title defences, longest reign, but he is past his prime now, so his claim will be distorted further and further with every loss, much like Anderson Silva's now

 

[Shaddows]

@Wise1


Sorry, but that's not good judgement.
Conor won 3 round fights. Aldo fought 5 round fights.

Conor consistently didn’t need 3 rounds to win. Aldo consistently needed 5.

Sorry, but what are you smoking?
Conor won 19 fights via KO/Sub. Aldo won 18.
That's one fight difference.

In the UFC, up until they fought each other, Conor had six fights and Aldo had seven. Conor had one UD, Aldo had five.

Wait. So you only want to count UFC fights? why is it? because it suits your argument? That's not very honest.
You claim Conor is a KO machine while ALdo only decision, but don't allow anything beyond UFC?
How about then, if I turn and say: Well, Aldo won title defenses, COnor never won any... would THAT be honest?
Bottom line: Your comparison is wrong, and you are trying to nitpick a point where facts proves you wrong. Aldo finished almost as many people as Conor. That's while Aldo had a belt to defend and Conor had nothing to lose. That's while Aldo was fighting top contenders and Conor hand-picked non-wrestlers.

============================================

Aldo had to beat Cub Swanson to get a title shot.
Conor beat Siver, who was #13 in the rankings when he signed the bout agreement to fight Conor He immediately he jumped to #10, and a win over Siver gave Conor a title shot.

That’s just disingenuous and you know it. Siver was just a little cherry on top, Conor was already getting the title shot.

That's even worse. He was getting a title shot even WITHOUT beating anyone from the top 10. That's while you had guys like Mendes or Frankie at the top, which he avoided completely.

Don’t know if you’re playing dumb or just weren’t paying attention at the time... there was no disputing Conor being worthy of the title shot. With the exception of the “he never faced a wrestler” crowd who got their fill when Aldo dropped out and he had to face Mendes, everyone agreed Conor had earned his shot.

I could say the same. Conor indeed never fought a wrestler on his way to a title shot. Given than the top 10 had plenty of it, it is VERY dishonest of claiming "he got their fill" by selecting a wrestler who had no camp at all. That's while another top contender (Frankie) was (at least) in shape and they did not pick him.
Playing dumb is not telling the truth. And in this, you have been very dishonest.

============================================

He is young, he has a lot of time.
But putting all stakes on a hungry and young Max beating a slowing down Aldo? That's obviously so wrong Max himself disagrees with you.

So by your assertion Aldo was “slowing down” when he fought Max even though he was up to speed for Edgar? Was he “slowing down” when Conor slept him?

Sorry, but THAT's Max being respectful while using it to toot his own horn (he beat a prime Aldo).
We both know Aldo has not been the same since his KO loss to Conor. It obviously took a tool on his confidence.
But please explain to me how you can claim he is the dominant Aldo from before.

Let me just establish a baseline here with you, so you’re saying Aldo was up-to-speed vs Conor but not vs Max, is that right? You’re also saying that when Aldo beat Frankie the second time, though he beat him more convincingly than the first time, that wasn’t even an up-to-speed Aldo?

Are any long time champion OK when they finally lose? Especially the way Aldo lost? I don't think so.
But that does not mean he goes from top to bum in one fight.
Yes, he beat Frankie, but you could see he changed his style a lot.
It has a lot to do with confidence. What before you would trust yourself, now you would not try because you don't want to run risks.
And while it helped against Frankie, it went terrible against Max. And that is probably because Frankie was not expecting a different, more cautious Aldo, Max had the confidence that ALdo lacked.
You can see how Max goes in Aldo's (or Ortega's) face with the confidence of a men who can't lose. Aldo did that before, but not anymore. he is more... tentative.
So yeah, I do think that Aldo is not as great as he was before his loss to Conor.

============================================

When I consider the GOAT of a weight class, imo the key to the formula is to have the candidates face each other and see who wins. That is rare, to be able to have them face each other but in the case of FW we’ve been blessed as fans. We will never see Cain vs Fedor so all we can do is speculate but with FW, we don’t have to. Of course you have to weigh body of work into the equation and that’s why this matter is up for debate... and IT IS up for debate.

Sorry, but it isn't. Everyone always said: when you are the champion, you got a target on your back. Everyone is looking to beat you.
And the champ is now fighting to keep his belt. They now have something to lose.
You can definitely see the changes in fighters before and after they get the belt. Woodley is a great example.
I am glad Max is not. But as our first point noted, neither was Aldo....until he got UFC Gold. By his own admission he started taking less chances, so he could KEEP the gold.

And as I noted: Claiming someone is GOAT because they have the "potential" to be GOAT is asinine and misleading.
They have to have accomplished more than the guy they are toppling.
Max himself said he is not there yet.
Same with GSP. He was not GOAT after beating Hughes. he had to stay at the top and dominate the division long enough to surpass Hughes. This is the way it should be.

I’m not projecting based on potential, I’m talking right now.

So you say that if Max quit MMA NOW< you would claim he did more than Aldo?
Sorry man, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
Aldo: 9 title defenses.
Max: 2 title defenses.

Aldo: 18 fights win streak (8 years unbeaten)
Max: 13 fights win streak (4 years unbeaten)

Aldo: 7 title defenses
Max: 2 title defenses

I don't know what you can compare that Max outdid Aldo.

As I said, Max is well on his way. Much like GSP surpassed Hughes.
But for sure it was not when he beat Serra to capture the belt (or Fitch or even BJ Penn). It was in time.

 

[Marc A]

Well obviously this is pointless but the stats don't really back up your claim. He was better than them on the night sure but over all is still a question mark since they are both far more accomplished in the division than him.

The stats do back up my claim since it says Conor beat both of them.

They do have more fights than Conor at FW but Conor is the superior fighter hence why he beat them at FW

Who is Holloway's best win?

 

[linch]

Aldo is the best fw of all time because the number of title defenses.
For those saying that it's conor because he beat aldo, it would be the same as saying that Weidman is the mw goat because he beat Anderson Silva

 

[Wise1]

@Shaddows

Sorry, but that's not good judgement.
Conor won 3 round fights. Aldo fought 5 round fights.

Conor consistently didn’t need 3 rounds to win. Aldo consistently needed 5.

Sorry, but what are you smoking?
Conor won 19 fights via KO/Sub. Aldo won 18.
That's one fight difference.

In the UFC, up until they fought each other, Conor had six fights and Aldo had seven. Conor had one UD, Aldo had five.

Wait. So you only want to count UFC fights? why is it? because it suits your argument? That's not very honest.
You claim Conor is a KO machine while ALdo only decision, but don't allow anything beyond UFC?
How about then, if I turn and say: Well, Aldo won title defenses, COnor never won any... would THAT be honest?
Bottom line: Your comparison is wrong, and you are trying to nitpick a point where facts proves you wrong. Aldo finished almost as many people as Conor. That's while Aldo had a belt to defend and Conor had nothing to lose. That's while Aldo was fighting top contenders and Conor hand-picked non-wrestlers.

Of course I’m not discounting Aldo’s performances pre-UFC. I’m simply pointing out that the most recent run, on the biggest stage, against the best, Aldo was not as dominant as Conor. If you recall, Aldo got a lot of flack for often falling off midway through fights and simply surviving on the rounds he had banked earlier i.e Hominick and Edgar 1 and btw he nearly lost to Mendes in their second fight, surely you remember that.

============================================

Aldo had to beat Cub Swanson to get a title shot.
Conor beat Siver, who was #13 in the rankings when he signed the bout agreement to fight Conor He immediately he jumped to #10, and a win over Siver gave Conor a title shot.

That’s just disingenuous and you know it. Siver was just a little cherry on top, Conor was already getting the title shot.

That's even worse. He was getting a title shot even WITHOUT beating anyone from the top 10. That's while you had guys like Mendes or Frankie at the top, which he avoided completely.

Don’t know if you’re playing dumb or just weren’t paying attention at the time... there was no disputing Conor being worthy of the title shot. With the exception of the “he never faced a wrestler” crowd who got their fill when Aldo dropped out and he had to face Mendes, everyone agreed Conor had earned his shot.

I could say the same. Conor indeed never fought a wrestler on his way to a title shot. Given than the top 10 had plenty of it, it is VERY dishonest of claiming "he got their fill" by selecting a wrestler who had no camp at all. That's while another top contender (Frankie) was (at least) in shape and they did not pick him.
Playing dumb is not telling the truth. And in this, you have been very dishonest.

Who’s “nitpicking” now? Mendes(a wrestler) was thrown in late and Conor faced the challenge head on and prevailed. He wasn’t training for a wrestler and that matchup was just as much a surprise for him as it was for Mendes. You want to argue that it should have been Frankie and that Mendes was hurt and and and... we’ll just agree to disagree on whether or not Conor deserves the credit for that one... Oh and btw, Conor dealt with multiple injuries during that camp, common knowledge at this point.

============================================

He is young, he has a lot of time.
But putting all stakes on a hungry and young Max beating a slowing down Aldo? That's obviously so wrong Max himself disagrees with you.

So by your assertion Aldo was “slowing down” when he fought Max even though he was up to speed for Edgar? Was he “slowing down” when Conor slept him?

Sorry, but THAT's Max being respectful while using it to toot his own horn (he beat a prime Aldo).
We both know Aldo has not been the same since his KO loss to Conor. It obviously took a tool on his confidence.
But please explain to me how you can claim he is the dominant Aldo from before.

Let me just establish a baseline here with you, so you’re saying Aldo was up-to-speed vs Conor but not vs Max, is that right? You’re also saying that when Aldo beat Frankie the second time, though he beat him more convincingly than the first time, that wasn’t even an up-to-speed Aldo?

Are any long time champion OK when they finally lose? Especially the way Aldo lost? I don't think so.
But that does not mean he goes from top to bum in one fight.
Yes, he beat Frankie, but you could see he changed his style a lot.
It has a lot to do with confidence. What before you would trust yourself, now you would not try because you don't want to run risks.
And while it helped against Frankie, it went terrible against Max. And that is probably because Frankie was not expecting a different, more cautious Aldo, Max had the confidence that ALdo lacked.
You can see how Max goes in Aldo's (or Ortega's) face with the confidence of a men who can't lose. Aldo did that before, but not anymore. he is more... tentative.
So yeah, I do think that Aldo is not as great as he was before his loss to Conor.

Okay so according to you, Aldo wasn’t the same after Conor, fine but then you must accept that Conor dusted a PrimeAldo, the at-the-time FW GOAT and P4P#1... How much is that point alone worth when considering Conor’s claim?

============================================

When I consider the GOAT of a weight class, imo the key to the formula is to have the candidates face each other and see who wins. That is rare, to be able to have them face each other but in the case of FW we’ve been blessed as fans. We will never see Cain vs Fedor so all we can do is speculate but with FW, we don’t have to. Of course you have to weigh body of work into the equation and that’s why this matter is up for debate... and IT IS up for debate.

Sorry, but it isn't. Everyone always said: when you are the champion, you got a target on your back. Everyone is looking to beat you.
And the champ is now fighting to keep his belt. They now have something to lose.
You can definitely see the changes in fighters before and after they get the belt. Woodley is a great example.
I am glad Max is not. But as our first point noted, neither was Aldo....until he got UFC Gold. By his own admission he started taking less chances, so he could KEEP the gold.

And as I noted: Claiming someone is GOAT because they have the "potential" to be GOAT is asinine and misleading.
They have to have accomplished more than the guy they are toppling.
Max himself said he is not there yet.
Same with GSP. He was not GOAT after beating Hughes. he had to stay at the top and dominate the division long enough to surpass Hughes. This is the way it should be.

I’m not projecting based on potential, I’m talking right now.

So you say that if Max quit MMA NOW< you would claim he did more than Aldo?
Sorry man, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
Aldo: 9 title defenses.
Max: 2 title defenses.

Aldo: 18 fights win streak (8 years unbeaten)
Max: 13 fights win streak (4 years unbeaten)

Aldo: 7 title defenses
Max: 2 title defenses

I don't know what you can compare that Max outdid Aldo.

As I said, Max is well on his way. Much like GSP surpassed Hughes.
But for sure it was not when he beat Serra to capture the belt (or Fitch or even BJ Penn). It was in time.

Short answer: There are many factors to consider aside from time and ultimately I’m not convinced either way. I believe that all three men have reasonable claim and I wouldn’t insist on one over the other as it is quite the merry-go-round imo.

 

[bjpenngoat]

For me its max. I feel like his body of work is large enough now and his two wins over Aldo show that his prime is better than Jose's prime. Aldo could never possibly rack up a fw win as good as his own name, and max did it twice. Aldo is #2, like Coleman once said, being number 2 isn't so bad.

 

[tbulls123]

Aldo will always be the featherweight goat. I think people are discrediting him because of him pulling out of fights and not being active enough, but until max or conor pull this off in FW, winning and defending, then I'll crown them as the GOAT of the Featherweight Division. Just because you dethroned the King, doesn't mean you are the GOAT. It's what you do afterward that will decide if you are.

 

[PeacePipe]

He is a lightweight now anyway. We all know he had a chance at greatness but he blew it getting cosy with Mayweather and now he is too old, fat and distracted to ever fight at an elite level again. I had money on Mcgregor against Khabib and he looked like a man distracted by a baby, owning a whisky and $100 Million dollars, he looked like the shell of the man who beat Alvarez. His hearts not in it.

 

[Shaddows]

@Wise1

Sorry, but that's not good judgement.
Conor won 3 round fights. Aldo fought 5 round fights.

Conor consistently didn’t need 3 rounds to win. Aldo consistently needed 5.

Sorry, but what are you smoking?
Conor won 19 fights via KO/Sub. Aldo won 18.
That's one fight difference.

In the UFC, up until they fought each other, Conor had six fights and Aldo had seven. Conor had one UD, Aldo had five.

Wait. So you only want to count UFC fights? why is it? because it suits your argument? That's not very honest.
You claim Conor is a KO machine while ALdo only decision, but don't allow anything beyond UFC?
How about then, if I turn and say: Well, Aldo won title defenses, COnor never won any... would THAT be honest?
Bottom line: Your comparison is wrong, and you are trying to nitpick a point where facts proves you wrong. Aldo finished almost as many people as Conor. That's while Aldo had a belt to defend and Conor had nothing to lose. That's while Aldo was fighting top contenders and Conor hand-picked non-wrestlers.

Of course I’m not discounting Aldo’s performances pre-UFC. I’m simply pointing out that the most recent run, on the biggest stage, against the best, Aldo was not as dominant as Conor. If you recall, Aldo got a lot of flack for often falling off midway through fights and simply surviving on the rounds he had banked earlier i.e Hominick and Edgar 1 and btw he nearly lost to Mendes in their second fight, surely you remember that.

Sorry, but that's a load of BS. WEC was, on all aspects, part of Zuffa. And you blatantly disregarded the fact I noted about Aldo being defending his belt, so it is very different than climbing through the rankings with nothing to lose.
If you compare with Conor, Aldo (at least) put his belt on the line. Conor refused to defend until he shamefully forfeited both belts.
So please spare me with this notion that somehow Conor did better than Aldo.
Aldo had a reign. Conor merely reached the top.

============================================

Aldo had to beat Cub Swanson to get a title shot.
Conor beat Siver, who was #13 in the rankings when he signed the bout agreement to fight Conor He immediately he jumped to #10, and a win over Siver gave Conor a title shot.

That’s just disingenuous and you know it. Siver was just a little cherry on top, Conor was already getting the title shot.

That's even worse. He was getting a title shot even WITHOUT beating anyone from the top 10. That's while you had guys like Mendes or Frankie at the top, which he avoided completely.

Don’t know if you’re playing dumb or just weren’t paying attention at the time... there was no disputing Conor being worthy of the title shot. With the exception of the “he never faced a wrestler” crowd who got their fill when Aldo dropped out and he had to face Mendes, everyone agreed Conor had earned his shot.

I could say the same. Conor indeed never fought a wrestler on his way to a title shot. Given than the top 10 had plenty of it, it is VERY dishonest of claiming "he got their fill" by selecting a wrestler who had no camp at all. That's while another top contender (Frankie) was (at least) in shape and they did not pick him.
Playing dumb is not telling the truth. And in this, you have been very dishonest.

Who’s “nitpicking” now? Mendes(a wrestler) was thrown in late and Conor faced the challenge head on and prevailed. He wasn’t training for a wrestler and that matchup was just as much a surprise for him as it was for Mendes. You want to argue that it should have been Frankie and that Mendes was hurt and and and... we’ll just agree to disagree on whether or not Conor deserves the credit for that one... Oh and btw, Conor dealt with multiple injuries during that camp, common knowledge at this point.

I love how Conor frans try to claim that a full camp fight against someone with no camp is a wash because "he was not aware he would fight a wrestler"
That's ridiculous in any way you look at it.
Fact: they called Frankie.
Fact: They couldn't find Mendes (since he was out hunting)
Fact: they picked Mendes.
And we saw this was not an isolated incident but a pattern, since they picked Diaz over Cowboy or Khabib (both guys in shape while Diaz was partying on a boat).
So no. At the end of the day, Conor didn't "beat a wrestler". He beat a guy who was out of shape. And barely beat him, btw. The only reason he won was because Mendes (a guy who NEVER gasses) run out of gas (against a guy who is famous for gassing). You certainly can see how skewed this fight was. To claim that this fill in for "beating a wrestler" is ironic and tragic at the same time.

============================================

He is young, he has a lot of time.
But putting all stakes on a hungry and young Max beating a slowing down Aldo? That's obviously so wrong Max himself disagrees with you.

So by your assertion Aldo was “slowing down” when he fought Max even though he was up to speed for Edgar? Was he “slowing down” when Conor slept him?

Sorry, but THAT's Max being respectful while using it to toot his own horn (he beat a prime Aldo).
We both know Aldo has not been the same since his KO loss to Conor. It obviously took a tool on his confidence.
But please explain to me how you can claim he is the dominant Aldo from before.

Let me just establish a baseline here with you, so you’re saying Aldo was up-to-speed vs Conor but not vs Max, is that right? You’re also saying that when Aldo beat Frankie the second time, though he beat him more convincingly than the first time, that wasn’t even an up-to-speed Aldo?

Are any long time champion OK when they finally lose? Especially the way Aldo lost? I don't think so.
But that does not mean he goes from top to bum in one fight.
Yes, he beat Frankie, but you could see he changed his style a lot.
It has a lot to do with confidence. What before you would trust yourself, now you would not try because you don't want to run risks.
And while it helped against Frankie, it went terrible against Max. And that is probably because Frankie was not expecting a different, more cautious Aldo, Max had the confidence that ALdo lacked.
You can see how Max goes in Aldo's (or Ortega's) face with the confidence of a men who can't lose. Aldo did that before, but not anymore. he is more... tentative.
So yeah, I do think that Aldo is not as great as he was before his loss to Conor.

Okay so according to you, Aldo wasn’t the same after Conor, fine but then you must accept that Conor dusted a PrimeAldo, the at-the-time FW GOAT and P4P#1... How much is that point alone worth when considering Conor’s claim?

I think COnor beat a top Aldo. But it had a huge lick factor.
It was the first counter-punch thrown. And hit the mark. That's rare.
Most of the time, it takes a little time for fighters to get their distance just right. So while great victory, he did count with a bit of luck as well. And no, this is not prof positive that COnor has ANY claim to GOAT.
Even a blind men can hit bulls-eye given enough time and bullets.

============================================

When I consider the GOAT of a weight class, imo the key to the formula is to have the candidates face each other and see who wins. That is rare, to be able to have them face each other but in the case of FW we’ve been blessed as fans. We will never see Cain vs Fedor so all we can do is speculate but with FW, we don’t have to. Of course you have to weigh body of work into the equation and that’s why this matter is up for debate... and IT IS up for debate.

Sorry, but it isn't. Everyone always said: when you are the champion, you got a target on your back. Everyone is looking to beat you.
And the champ is now fighting to keep his belt. They now have something to lose.
You can definitely see the changes in fighters before and after they get the belt. Woodley is a great example.
I am glad Max is not. But as our first point noted, neither was Aldo....until he got UFC Gold. By his own admission he started taking less chances, so he could KEEP the gold.

And as I noted: Claiming someone is GOAT because they have the "potential" to be GOAT is asinine and misleading.
They have to have accomplished more than the guy they are toppling.
Max himself said he is not there yet.
Same with GSP. He was not GOAT after beating Hughes. he had to stay at the top and dominate the division long enough to surpass Hughes. This is the way it should be.

I’m not projecting based on potential, I’m talking right now.

So you say that if Max quit MMA NOW< you would claim he did more than Aldo?
Sorry man, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
Aldo: 9 title defenses.
Max: 2 title defenses.

Aldo: 18 fights win streak (8 years unbeaten)
Max: 13 fights win streak (4 years unbeaten)

Aldo: 7 title defenses
Max: 2 title defenses

I don't know what you can compare that Max outdid Aldo.

As I said, Max is well on his way. Much like GSP surpassed Hughes.
But for sure it was not when he beat Serra to capture the belt (or Fitch or even BJ Penn). It was in time.

Short answer: There are many factors to consider aside from time and ultimately I’m not convinced either way. I believe that all three men have reasonable claim and I wouldn’t insist on one over the other as it is quite the merry-go-round imo.

Then we differ in what GOAT means.
For you, it is merely potential.
For me, and the rest of the world, it is that AND the accomplishments.
And if Conor and Max stop fighting today, they would have not accomplished what Aldo did.
Note: I don't dispute the fact they might be more skilled than Aldo. I don't even dispute that, if they fought for as long as Aldo did, they could be ahead. The point is: they did not. And as such, reality is: Aldo have laps and laps ahead of them. And they have to keep going to surpass him.

Note: I like this. Thank you for a fun debate!!!
Note2: we might run out of colors

 

[Wise1]

@Shaddows

Sorry, but that's not good judgement.
Conor won 3 round fights. Aldo fought 5 round fights.

Conor consistently didn’t need 3 rounds to win. Aldo consistently needed 5.

Sorry, but what are you smoking?
Conor won 19 fights via KO/Sub. Aldo won 18.
That's one fight difference.

In the UFC, up until they fought each other, Conor had six fights and Aldo had seven. Conor had one UD, Aldo had five.

Wait. So you only want to count UFC fights? why is it? because it suits your argument? That's not very honest.
You claim Conor is a KO machine while ALdo only decision, but don't allow anything beyond UFC?
How about then, if I turn and say: Well, Aldo won title defenses, COnor never won any... would THAT be honest?
Bottom line: Your comparison is wrong, and you are trying to nitpick a point where facts proves you wrong. Aldo finished almost as many people as Conor. That's while Aldo had a belt to defend and Conor had nothing to lose. That's while Aldo was fighting top contenders and Conor hand-picked non-wrestlers.

Of course I’m not discounting Aldo’s performances pre-UFC. I’m simply pointing out that the most recent run, on the biggest stage, against the best, Aldo was not as dominant as Conor. If you recall, Aldo got a lot of flack for often falling off midway through fights and simply surviving on the rounds he had banked earlier i.e Hominick and Edgar 1 and btw he nearly lost to Mendes in their second fight, surely you remember that.

Sorry, but that's a load of BS. WEC was, on all aspects, part of Zuffa. And you blatantly disregarded the fact I noted about Aldo being defending his belt, so it is very different than climbing through the rankings with nothing to lose.
If you compare with Conor, Aldo (at least) put his belt on the line. Conor refused to defend until he shamefully forfeited both belts.
So please spare me with this notion that somehow Conor did better than Aldo.
Aldo had a reign. Conor merely reached the top.








============================================

Aldo had to beat Cub Swanson to get a title shot.
Conor beat Siver, who was #13 in the rankings when he signed the bout agreement to fight Conor He immediately he jumped to #10, and a win over Siver gave Conor a title shot.

That’s just disingenuous and you know it. Siver was just a little cherry on top, Conor was already getting the title shot.

That's even worse. He was getting a title shot even WITHOUT beating anyone from the top 10. That's while you had guys like Mendes or Frankie at the top, which he avoided completely.

Don’t know if you’re playing dumb or just weren’t paying attention at the time... there was no disputing Conor being worthy of the title shot. With the exception of the “he never faced a wrestler” crowd who got their fill when Aldo dropped out and he had to face Mendes, everyone agreed Conor had earned his shot.

I could say the same. Conor indeed never fought a wrestler on his way to a title shot. Given than the top 10 had plenty of it, it is VERY dishonest of claiming "he got their fill" by selecting a wrestler who had no camp at all. That's while another top contender (Frankie) was (at least) in shape and they did not pick him.
Playing dumb is not telling the truth. And in this, you have been very dishonest.

Who’s “nitpicking” now? Mendes(a wrestler) was thrown in late and Conor faced the challenge head on and prevailed. He wasn’t training for a wrestler and that matchup was just as much a surprise for him as it was for Mendes. You want to argue that it should have been Frankie and that Mendes was hurt and and and... we’ll just agree to disagree on whether or not Conor deserves the credit for that one... Oh and btw, Conor dealt with multiple injuries during that camp, common knowledge at this point.

I love how Conor frans try to claim that a full camp fight against someone with no camp is a wash because "he was not aware he would fight a wrestler"
That's ridiculous in any way you look at it.
Fact: they called Frankie.
Fact: They couldn't find Mendes (since he was out hunting)
Fact: they picked Mendes.
And we saw this was not an isolated incident but a pattern, since they picked Diaz over Cowboy or Khabib (both guys in shape while Diaz was partying on a boat).
So no. At the end of the day, Conor didn't "beat a wrestler". He beat a guy who was out of shape. And barely beat him, btw. The only reason he won was because Mendes (a guy who NEVER gasses) run out of gas (against a guy who is famous for gassing). You certainly can see how skewed this fight was. To claim that this fill in for "beating a wrestler" is ironic and tragic at the same time.








============================================

He is young, he has a lot of time.
But putting all stakes on a hungry and young Max beating a slowing down Aldo? That's obviously so wrong Max himself disagrees with you.

So by your assertion Aldo was “slowing down” when he fought Max even though he was up to speed for Edgar? Was he “slowing down” when Conor slept him?

Sorry, but THAT's Max being respectful while using it to toot his own horn (he beat a prime Aldo).
We both know Aldo has not been the same since his KO loss to Conor. It obviously took a tool on his confidence.
But please explain to me how you can claim he is the dominant Aldo from before.

Let me just establish a baseline here with you, so you’re saying Aldo was up-to-speed vs Conor but not vs Max, is that right? You’re also saying that when Aldo beat Frankie the second time, though he beat him more convincingly than the first time, that wasn’t even an up-to-speed Aldo?

Are any long time champion OK when they finally lose? Especially the way Aldo lost? I don't think so.
But that does not mean he goes from top to bum in one fight.
Yes, he beat Frankie, but you could see he changed his style a lot.
It has a lot to do with confidence. What before you would trust yourself, now you would not try because you don't want to run risks.
And while it helped against Frankie, it went terrible against Max. And that is probably because Frankie was not expecting a different, more cautious Aldo, Max had the confidence that ALdo lacked.
You can see how Max goes in Aldo's (or Ortega's) face with the confidence of a men who can't lose. Aldo did that before, but not anymore. he is more... tentative.
So yeah, I do think that Aldo is not as great as he was before his loss to Conor.

Okay so according to you, Aldo wasn’t the same after Conor, fine but then you must accept that Conor dusted a PrimeAldo, the at-the-time FW GOAT and P4P#1... How much is that point alone worth when considering Conor’s claim?

I think COnor beat a top Aldo. But it had a huge lick factor.
It was the first counter-punch thrown. And hit the mark. That's rare.
Most of the time, it takes a little time for fighters to get their distance just right. So while great victory, he did count with a bit of luck as well. And no, this is not prof positive that COnor has ANY claim to GOAT.
Even a blind men can hit bulls-eye given enough time and bullets.







============================================

When I consider the GOAT of a weight class, imo the key to the formula is to have the candidates face each other and see who wins. That is rare, to be able to have them face each other but in the case of FW we’ve been blessed as fans. We will never see Cain vs Fedor so all we can do is speculate but with FW, we don’t have to. Of course you have to weigh body of work into the equation and that’s why this matter is up for debate... and IT IS up for debate.

Sorry, but it isn't. Everyone always said: when you are the champion, you got a target on your back. Everyone is looking to beat you.
And the champ is now fighting to keep his belt. They now have something to lose.
You can definitely see the changes in fighters before and after they get the belt. Woodley is a great example.
I am glad Max is not. But as our first point noted, neither was Aldo....until he got UFC Gold. By his own admission he started taking less chances, so he could KEEP the gold.

And as I noted: Claiming someone is GOAT because they have the "potential" to be GOAT is asinine and misleading.
They have to have accomplished more than the guy they are toppling.
Max himself said he is not there yet.
Same with GSP. He was not GOAT after beating Hughes. he had to stay at the top and dominate the division long enough to surpass Hughes. This is the way it should be.

I’m not projecting based on potential, I’m talking right now.

So you say that if Max quit MMA NOW< you would claim he did more than Aldo?
Sorry man, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
Aldo: 9 title defenses.
Max: 2 title defenses.

Aldo: 18 fights win streak (8 years unbeaten)
Max: 13 fights win streak (4 years unbeaten)

Aldo: 7 title defenses
Max: 2 title defenses

I don't know what you can compare that Max outdid Aldo.

As I said, Max is well on his way. Much like GSP surpassed Hughes.
But for sure it was not when he beat Serra to capture the belt (or Fitch or even BJ Penn). It was in time.

Short answer: There are many factors to consider aside from time and ultimately I’m not convinced either way. I believe that all three men have reasonable claim and I wouldn’t insist on one over the other as it is quite the merry-go-round imo.

Then we differ in what GOAT means.
For you, it is merely potential.
For me, and the rest of the world, it is that AND the accomplishments.
And if Conor and Max stop fighting today, they would have not accomplished what Aldo did.
Note: I don't dispute the fact they might be more skilled than Aldo. I don't even dispute that, if they fought for as long as Aldo did, they could be ahead. The point is: they did not. And as such, reality is: Aldo have laps and laps ahead of them. And they have to keep going to surpass him.

Note: I like this. Thank you for a fun debate!!!
Note2: we might run out of colors

LOL.

Since we’ve used all the colors, for my final responses I have chosen the same color as the background... and so you can’t see it... and so you can’t respond... and so I win!

Cheers!