Salafism is growing in Germany

[tramendous]

On the religion of peace bit, it's bullshit. No Abrahamic religion has ever been a religion of peace, because they label people on the basis of eternal salvations and punishments. That seems like a temptation to hostility off top. Islam was more stable, and much more so, at one point. It has not been stable, nor approached the stability of christianity, with all of it's insanity and schism, for hundreds of years. The only thing that kept the Islamic world in check was empires like the Ottomans, numerous older Caliphates, and the Byzantines.

On the inventions. The religion itself never helped anyone with any sort of explanatory or mechanical work. When Doctors in the Islamic Golden age performed a masectomy for breast cancer, the Quran and Hadith provided nothing to base this particular field of knowledge upon. That would be akin to reading Genesis, with it's author's belief that the stars are affixed in pillars above the Earth, and saying "Eureka!! I found the basis for astronomy!!"

I don't think its fair to compare the stability of Christianity which has been largely abandoned in favor of secular government to the Islamic world which is trying to sort out their borders and national identities in the aftermath of colonial and autocratic rule. Christianity was so unstable that Europe abandoned it more and more over the last few hundred years. How many countries are actually ruled by Christian law?

In regards to the inventions, it would be wise to note that most of the inventors and scientists were educated religiously as well. The Madrassa system which gave them their education gave significant focus to religion in addition to other areas of learning. In fact, these same inventors frequently attributed their desire to learn and excel in their areas of scholarship to Islam.

There are also frequent verses and hadiths that inspire Muslims to go out and learn.

"My Lord, increase me in knowledge." Quran 20:114

"Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim."

Source: Hadith Sunan Ibn Majah 224

"The Prophet continued to increase in knowledge until Allah the Exalted took his soul."

Source: Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm 20:114

"The seekers of two concerns are never satisfied: the seeker of knowledge and the seeker of the world."
al-Muʻjam al-Kabīr 10239

You have to remember that the inventors, thinkers etc would have been well versed in Islam. For example, Nasir Ad Din Al Tusi who has a crater on the Moon named after him today and and also a minor planet, and described a basic theory of evolution in the 13th century, was educated in the Quran, Hadith, Islamic Jurisprudence, logic, philosophy, mathematics, medicine and astronomy.

 

[meauneau]

I don't think its fair to compare the stability of Christianity which has been largely abandoned in favor of secular government to the Islamic world which is trying to sort out their borders and national identities in the aftermath of colonial and autocratic rule. Christianity was so unstable that Europe abandoned it more and more over the last few hundred years. How many countries are actually ruled by Christian law?

In regards to the inventions, it would be wise to note that most of the inventors and scientists were educated religiously as well. The Madrassa system which gave them their education gave significant focus to religion in addition to other areas of learning. In fact, these same inventors frequently attributed their desire to learn and excel in their areas of scholarship to Islam.

There are also frequent verses and hadiths that inspire Muslims to go out and learn.

"My Lord, increase me in knowledge." Quran 20:114

"Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim."

Source: Hadith Sunan Ibn Majah 224

"The Prophet continued to increase in knowledge until Allah the Exalted took his soul."

Source: Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm 20:114

"The seekers of two concerns are never satisfied: the seeker of knowledge and the seeker of the world."
al-Muʻjam al-Kabīr 10239

You have to remember that the inventors, thinkers etc would have been well versed in Islam. For example, Nasir Ad Din Al Tusi who has a crater on the Moon named after him today and and also a minor planet, and described a basic theory of evolution in the 13th century, was educated in the Quran, Hadith, Islamic Jurisprudence, logic, philosophy, mathematics, medicine and astronomy.

When a verse in the Quran says "knowledge" what it means is knowledge about religion, about Islam and Allah, not scientific or philosophical knowledge. The word eilm in Arabic means science, knowledge, learning, etc. Those who lacked the "eilm" or knowledge that Mohammed brought (the Quran) were called jahileen. The time before Mohammed brought his revelation was referred to by Muslims as "Jahiliyyah (Arabic: جاهلية‎ ǧāhiliyyah/jāhilīyah "ignorance") is an Islamic concept of the period of time and state of affairs in Arabia before the advent of Islam. It is often translated as the "Age of Ignorance". And sometimes "eilm" even caused some to become heretics like Ibn Sina.

Some Muslims did advance "eilm" in sicence and philosophy (including logic) but others like Al Ghazali stifled it and pretty much brought it to an end because of Islam.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Umm, you might want to qualify that statement. Islam was preserving ancient knowledge like the works of Aristotle at a time when Christians were bathing their world in ignorance and suffering. It is fair, however, to state that Islam has not been good for the future of civilization since the 1250s.

In large part because the muslims conquered the most developed areas of the christian and zoroastrian world at the time. They managed to screw it all up in a short amount of time.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I don't think its fair to compare the stability of Christianity which has been largely abandoned in favor of secular government to the Islamic world which is trying to sort out their borders and national identities in the aftermath of colonial and autocratic rule. Christianity was so unstable that Europe abandoned it more and more over the last few hundred years. How many countries are actually ruled by Christian law?

In regards to the inventions, it would be wise to note that most of the inventors and scientists were educated religiously as well. The Madrassa system which gave them their education gave significant focus to religion in addition to other areas of learning. In fact, these same inventors frequently attributed their desire to learn and excel in their areas of scholarship to Islam.

There are also frequent verses and hadiths that inspire Muslims to go out and learn.

"My Lord, increase me in knowledge." Quran 20:114

"Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim."

Source: Hadith Sunan Ibn Majah 224

"The Prophet continued to increase in knowledge until Allah the Exalted took his soul."

Source: Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm 20:114

"The seekers of two concerns are never satisfied: the seeker of knowledge and the seeker of the world."
al-Muʻjam al-Kabīr 10239

You have to remember that the inventors, thinkers etc would have been well versed in Islam. For example, Nasir Ad Din Al Tusi who has a crater on the Moon named after him today and and also a minor planet, and described a basic theory of evolution in the 13th century, was educated in the Quran, Hadith, Islamic Jurisprudence, logic, philosophy, mathematics, medicine and astronomy.

Christian scientists were also educated in that religious stuff. Newton for example spent more time reading the bible than studying physics. But it was useless. It was just what people did at the time.

 

[tramendous]

When a verse in the Quran says "knowledge" what it means is knowledge about religion, about Islam and Allah, not scientific or philosophical knowledge. The word eilm in Arabic means science, knowledge, learning, etc. Those who lacked the "eilm" or knowledge that Mohammed brought (the Quran) were called jahileen. The time before Mohammed brought his revelation was referred to by Muslims as "Jahiliyyah (Arabic: جاهلية‎ ǧāhiliyyah/jāhilīyah "ignorance") is an Islamic concept of the period of time and state of affairs in Arabia before the advent of Islam. It is often translated as the "Age of Ignorance". And sometimes "eilm" even caused some to become heretics like Ibn Sina.

Some Muslims did advance "eilm" in sicence and philosophy (including logic) but others like Al Ghazali stifled it and pretty much brought it to an end because of Islam.

I'm not sure how the above relates to what I wrote. Knowledge includes all forms of knowledge. The dispute was that Islam had nothing to do with the golden age or the scientific discoveries, while the discoverers themselves attribute their desire to learn to Islam and were educated in an Islamic education. Ghazali and other's attempts to "stifle" (even though its much more complicated in regards to even Al Ghazali who integrated logic into the madrassah system and influenced St Thomas Aquinas) his competing scholars doesn't change this. This is like saying Greek Philosophy and culture had nothing to do with the Hellenistic age.

 

[tramendous]

Christian scientists were also educated in that religious stuff. Newton for example spent more time reading the bible than studying physics. But it was useless. It was just what people did at the time.

It by definition cannot be useless if the person who's accomplishment you are celebrating is telling you that is why he is doing his work. The value/belief system of a person has a big effect on what they choose to pursue. It is like saying religion had nothing to do with art in the renaissance.

 

[meauneau]

I'm not sure how the above relates to what I wrote. Knowledge includes all forms of knowledge. The dispute was that Islam had nothing to do with the golden age or the scientific discoveries, while the discoverers themselves attribute their desire to learn to Islam and were educated in an Islamic education. Ghazali and other's attempts to "stifle" (even though its much more complicated in regards to even Al Ghazali who integrated logic into the madrassah system and influenced St Thomas Aquinas) his competing scholars doesn't change this. This is like saying Greek Philosophy and culture had nothing to do with the Hellenistic age.

When terrorists attribute their actions to Islam then what?

Science and philosophy undermine Islam and Al Ghazali knew this.

 

[ElKarlo]

Not during the Golden age of Islam. They, unlike most of Islamic history, sought knowledge wherever they could, imported it, and preserved it.

Yes, the Library of Alexandria, at the time, was not the center of learning. But it is a perfect encapsulation of Theodosius' attitude toward non christian learning, as he purged conflicting beliefs and knowledge.

Subsequent Christian Emperors followed this pattern until the end of the Empire, when European Christians kept the tradition alive, in large part. That is why this was called the Dark Ages in Europe. They destroyed the past on such a consistent basis, they wallowed in their ignorance to an insane level not seen until the rise of more conservative branches of Islam, which essentially found it's apex in Wahhabism, which has hobbled the Islamic world to this day. That is the tragedy of Islam. It could have been something decent enough, for it's time, but has languished and festered so badly, it has become one of the chief threats to us enduring as a species.

This painting, Triumph of Christianity, once thought a beautiful showcase of the superiority of Christianity, shows just how backwards and threatening Christendom was for quite a long time.

It says, in short, fuck you if you dont follow Christ. Unluckily for our species, large swaths of the Muslim world have adopted this attitude, as evidenced today by barbarous groups like ISIS, The Taliban and Al Qaeda, whose list of destroyed human legacy pieces is long, with pieces like the splendid Bamiyan Buddhas.

Nothing you wrote was even a little correct.
The golden age of Islam occurred right at the same time the educated class converted from Christianity and Judaism to Islam. That's when they stopped making any and all progress.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Nothing you wrote was even a little correct.
The golden age of Islam occurred right at the same time the educated class converted from Christianity and Judaism to Islam. That's when they stopped making any and all progress.

You are free to provide evidence to refute the claims I made. As of now, your post is somewhat incomprehensible.

 

[ElKarlo]

You are free to provide evidence to refute the claims I made. As of now, your post is somewhat incomprehensible.

Seriously? I'm done you and your laughable sources can GTFO

 

[JonesBones]

Umm, you might want to qualify that statement. Islam was preserving ancient knowledge like the works of Aristotle at a time when Christians were bathing their world in ignorance and suffering. It is fair, however, to state that Islam has not been good for the future of civilization since the 1250s.

By "preserving" you mean choking off europe from the east. even to the point they wouldnt even sell europeans paper. It was basically an intellectual blockade you shithead.

What you are saying about this islam revolution is like saying Columbus thought the world was flat. it isnt true. the "dark ages" are vastly distorted.

 

[hillelslovak87]

By "preserving" you mean choking off europe from the east. even to the point they wouldnt even sell europeans paper. It was basically an intellectual blockade you shithead.

What you are saying about this islam revolution is like saying Columbus thought the world was flat. it isnt true. the "dark ages" are vastly distorted.

Intellectual blockade? You can do better than that. I already outlined the clear facts about Christendom following the path of Theodosius.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Seriously? I'm done you and your laughable sources can GTFO

So, no, you're not going to provide an argument or refutation of any kind. Great job.

 

[JonesBones]

Intellectual blockade? You can do better than that. I already outlined the clear facts about Christendom following the path of Theodosius.

It is a fact. they choked off europe. they blockaded writing and reading materials. Do you disagree with that fact?

and christianity comes from stoics u dummy.

this sudden and catastrophic decline in civilization was due to Islam’s blockade of the Mediterranean. Up to that time, Pirenne showed, there was no evidence of a decline in Classical culture. True, the Western Roman Empire as a political entity had disappeared in 476, but the literate, prosperous and urban civilization which we call “Classical” continued virtually uninterrupted. The Goths and other “Barbarian” peoples who ruled the provinces of the West after 467 did not try to destroy Roman civilization and civil society. Indeed, as Pirenne showed in great detail, they did everything in their power to preserve it. They adopted the Latin language, accepted Imperial titles from the Emperor in Constantinople, and minted gold coins with the image of the Eastern Emperor emblazoned upon them.

Yet this thriving Late Classical culture came to a rather sudden end in the seventh century: city life declined, as did trade; a barter economy replaced the earlier monetary system, and what coins were issued were minted in silver rather than gold; literacy declined as papyrus from Egypt disappeared and expensive parchment took its place; and the power of kings waned, as local strongmen or “barons” seized the reins of power in the provinces. The Middle Ages had begun.

 

[hillelslovak87]

It is a fact. they choked off europe. they blockaded writing and reading materials. Do you disagree with that fact?

and christianity comes from stoics u dummy.

So, Europe, which apparently had no capability of producing paper, were forced into schism after schism between christian confessions, were forced into letting Latin and Greek fall out of use and separate themselves. It was all the Muslims. Yes. It was also the Muslims who stifled scientific advances throughout the Christian world in favor of Jesus. It was the Muslims fault for turning major rivers into floating graveyards during plague, and it was those pesky Muslims, and dont forget those sneaky Jews at fault for Europeans using shitty pipes that failed to separate their plumbing from their sewage. And it was those damn Muslims at fault for the little Ice Age.

Damn you, Theodosius!! Why did you have to tirelessly try to stamp out gnosticism and Paganism for Allah!?

Damn the Umayyads, and their restless search for knowledge in every direction!!! Damn them for cutting the European world off by having European Christians destroy any trace of hellenistic legacy!!!

Fucking Mohamed, causing the fall of the Roman Empire in 500CE. From that moment, fucking Mohamed took control and blockaded paper to the entirety of Europe. Fucking Mohamed. Right when the Holy Roman Empire fell, he just had to cross the Iberian peninsula.

 

[dawnslayer]

Christianity is rolling over for the trappings of the modern world, while Islam isn't.

 

[CauseImbetta]

Since 2011, the number of Salafists in Berlin has tripled. It is alleged to be 1000 members now. Which means there must be way more Salafists in the closet, since everyone knows the authorities keep a watch on Salafists.

About half the Salafists are Germans. No mention on whether that means they are Germanic or just German nationals. 1/3 of the Salafists have dual citizenship.

The massive influx of Syrians will add to the number.

http://www.dw.com/en/in-berlin-salafist-extremist-scene-nears-1000-members-report/a-42187912

-

Germany is importing problems. Not all immigrants are problem makers, but Muslims who take their religion seriously will always be a problem because they will never integrate, and will seek to impose Islamic culture and values on the host.

Its time for a little..

d eee port ataion.