Salafism is growing in Germany

[hillelslovak87]

ok so aside from the delusional religion of peace facade what exactly was the islamic golden age and where did theu excel ?

First off, I would enjoin you to point out where, once, I pretended as if Islam is a religion of peace. I dont think you could do this, because I never said it. The Islamic world, through Caliphates that were ok playing nice, for the most part, was stabilized while Christendom was splitting itself year after year or futile notions of the holy ghost and heresy after heresy.

The most notable Caliphate during the golden period was the Umayyad Caliphate. Their expansion period during the mid 600s, and into the mid 700s essentially gave them a massive swath of land, which they controlled to the point where their might was undisputed. This allowed relative peace within the Muslim world during a time in which Europe was in the middle of what we would call the dark ages, after the fall of Rome, and the rise of christendom.

I already outlined, above, the areas in which they made huge contributions. The Caliphate was a great sponsor of learning of all kinds. Art, the humanities and science. They built upon the foundations of the Greek and Roman Empires while Europe was actively purging itself of this legacy of information.

Theodosius, the Roman emperor oversaw the burning of the library of Alexandria, and after the Roman empire fell, christendom carried up this tradition. At one time, the Islamic world was the only bulwark from losing all of this information entirely.

And all of these advances, none of them had to do with the tenets of Islam, as should seem quite obvious, as none of the Abrahamic books provide much of use to base any real learning upon.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I've heard his shitty argument before.

He doesn't even address the golden age for most of it and when he does he does so badly. I mean, yeah, he does make points that are true(Jews contributed a lot to civilization) and some people play up the golden age too much but to say advances in optics don't count because of how they used it is asinine.

Also he pretty disingenuously judges the Muslim world on the basis of a human development report that examined the Arab world which is a minority of the whole Muslim world, asking afterwards if the picture would get better if you added other Muslims...yes Sam, actually it very much would. Iranians are far ahead of their Arab neighbors in science(and oddly enough made a lot of gains there under the Islamic Republic) and while South Asia lags behind in human development like the Arab world it also produces individuals of note like both Muslim Nobel Prize winners.

Sure, the Moslem world is behind in many relevant metrics but Sam is distorting the facts here to make that argument when he doesn't have to, likely because he is very bitter on this topic because of all the grief its given him. When he first started out I don't think he had any prejudices but I really do think by this point the likes of Reza Aslan and Mehdi Hassan and Dahlia Mogahed have lead him to internalize a bigotry towards Muslims.

One can partially agree with Harris on one point, while admitting the poverty of his overall argument. Many achievements in astronomy, for example, were worked on to achieve silly goals like more accurately praying directly in the direction of mecca. But the knowledge these mathematical exercises still advanced the world greatly.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Don't bother trying to educate on this subject with your vapid regurgitations of Islamic supremacy.

some people just know history, and some do not.

the islamic dominated middle east has not always been a shithole, despite what people want so badly to believe for some reason. i mean, the cordoba caliphate, and arguably the ORIGINAL muslims, were more moderate than ISIS lol.

and these are just people. so what we have them to thank for with regards to literacy, empiricism, medicine, mathematics, architecture they may have advanced regardless of what religion they happened to be.

not until the mongols showed up in baghdad, did this "golden age" really get snuffed out.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

stopped listening when he compares modern manhattan to islam's golden age.

hes allowing his hatred for this religion to be a lense on his interpretation of history.

 

[Dalarna3]

Umm, you might want to qualify that statement. Islam was preserving ancient knowledge like the works of Aristotle at a time when Christians were bathing their world in ignorance and suffering. It is fair, however, to state that Islam has not been good for the future of civilization since the 1250s.

Monasteries preserved literacy and knowledge in much of Northern/Western Europe. Biggest misconception about the era.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Monasteries preserved literacy and knowledge in much of Northern/Western Europe. Biggest misconception about the era.

From what I understand the term Dark Ages refers not to living standards necessarily but rather a lack of sources for historians with the one exception being the church and the sources produced by the literate priestly class.

 

[Lucifer Alpha]

I think it's time to nuke Germany. They are a cursed nation.

 

[Falconkick]

800 year long track record of dogshit and violence with no chance of reformation in sight def speaks for itself.

isn't it more like 1400 years lol

 

[MiroHa]

Umm, you might want to qualify that statement. Islam was preserving ancient knowledge like the works of Aristotle at a time when Christians were bathing their world in ignorance and suffering. It is fair, however, to state that Islam has not been good for the future of civilization since the 1250s.

I'm pretty sure those were preserved in ERE as well. Early Muslim philosophers really liked Aristotle's work, though.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I'm pretty sure those were preserved in ERE as well. Early Muslim philosophers really liked Aristotle's work, though.

Muslims brought his works to the West. Moors incorporated Aristotle and other Hellenic works, and Christians actively fought to suppress his work, along with other Hellenic works in their wars in Spain against the Moors, particularly in Andalucia. These wars were the cause of the loss of so many older works from Greece and other older nations. These works were saved and preserved in the Islamic world, and in time exported back to the West.

Ever since Emperor Theodosius I, Christendom was very hostile towards Hellenic works. Odd, considering Hellenic influence on Rome to begin with. He suppressed paganism throughout the Empire, barred the Olympiad, and destroyed countless Greek Temples and legacy sites. Anything with a hint of Gnosticism or paganism was attempted to be snuffed out, and after the fall of the Holy Roman Empire, subsequent European powers tread the same path. This was the type of suppression that led to the Dark Ages in Europe.

 

[hillelslovak87]

isn't it more like 1400 years lol

Many scholars disagree, but the generally accepted end of the Islamic golden age was at the fall of Baghdad in 1258. It's really odd to think that Baghdad was one of, if not the greatest center of learning at that time. Then came the Mongols with one of the most insanely brutal sieges of all time. Baghdad actually had many trees ranging around it, until the Khans had every single tree they could find chopped, larded in human fat and set alight, or simply set on fire, and lobbed into the city on catapults. Insane.

 

[MiroHa]

Muslims brought his works to the West. Moors incorporated Aristotle and other Hellenic works, and Christians actively fought to suppress his work, along with other Hellenic works in their wars in Spain against the Moors, particularly in Andalucia. These wars were the cause of the loss of so many older works from Greece and other older nations. These works were saved and preserved in the Islamic world, and in time exported back to the West.

Ever since Emperor Theodosius I, Christendom was very hostile towards Hellenic works. Odd, considering Hellenic influence on Rome to begin with. He suppressed paganism throughout the Empire, barred the Olympiad, and destroyed countless Greek Temples and legacy sites. Anything with a hint of Gnosticism or paganism was attempted to be snuffed out, and after the fall of the Holy Roman Empire, subsequent European powers tread the same path. This was the type of suppression that led to the Dark Ages in Europe.

I was talking about ERE, though. They preserved ancient Greek and Roman literature, science and arts even if periodically they didn't appreciate them. It was Greek intellectuals who brought all this preserved knowledge to the West after the fall of the Roman Empire and made the Italian Renaissance possible.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I was talking about ERE, though. They preserved ancient Greek and Roman literature, science and arts even if periodically they didn't appreciate them. It was Greek intellectuals who brought all this preserved knowledge to the West after the fall of the Roman Empire and made the Italian Renaissance possible.

Please refresh me, ERE?

 

[Fronk]

Please refresh me, ERE?

Eastern Roman Empire. But that is simply not true. By the time refugees from Constantinople reached Europe the main body of Aristotle's work had been long rediscovered. There is a reason thinkers and writers like Avicenna and Averroes were revered in the Europe. I get that some people hate Islam but what is the point of trying to rewrite history?

 

[Liquidskies]

I've heard his shitty argument before.

He doesn't even address the golden age for most of it and when he does he does so badly. I mean, yeah, he does make points that are true(Jews contributed a lot to civilization) and some people play up the golden age too much but to say advances in optics don't count because of how they used it is asinine.

Also he pretty disingenuously judges the Muslim world on the basis of a human development report that examined the Arab world which is a minority of the whole Muslim world, asking afterwards if the picture would get better if you added other Muslims...yes Sam, actually it very much would. Iranians are far ahead of their Arab neighbors in science(and oddly enough made a lot of gains there under the Islamic Republic) and while South Asia lags behind in human development like the Arab world it also produces individuals of note like both Muslim Nobel Prize winners.

Sure, the Moslem world is behind in many relevant metrics but Sam is distorting the facts here to make that argument when he doesn't have to, likely because he is very bitter on this topic because of all the grief its given him. When he first started out I don't think he had any prejudices but I really do think by this point the likes of Reza Aslan and Mehdi Hassan and Dahlia Mogahed have lead him to internalize a bigotry towards Muslims.

Ahh I just love the romanticizing of Islam. Basicly its just wishful thinking. Religion doesnt invent stuff, humans do. So when people refer to Islams golden age it just takes away focus from the individuals who made progress\invented stuff. If Islam hadnt taken over, those people, who were highly intelligent, would actually make even more progress and advances, but were held back because of Islam. Like a major brake. Even in "Islams golden age" inventions beeing made was of non-believers.

Lets not actually forget how Islam spread out, not by a handshake and a smile, but through crusades and conquering, horrible stuff. And those opposing Islam, well life wasnt easy. Remove Islam from any region and things would flourish. Sure u could say some clerics\imams would impose a milder version of Islam, but the core teachings of Islam\Muhammeds life is stone age mentality, validating slavery and other barbaric stuff. So it kinda surprises nobody when u see the status of Islam today. It was bound to happen.

And regarding Sam Harris I think he was spot on but maybe next time ill use Douglas Murray or Christopher Hitchens (peace be upon him btw). They sure would make Sherdog implode with their quotes. Never mind they have a IQ whole sherdog combined.

 

[MiroHa]

Eastern Roman Empire. But that is simply not true. By the time refugees from Constantinople reached Europe the main body of Aristotle's work had been long rediscovered. There is a reason thinkers and writers like Avicenna and Averroes were revered in the Europe. I get that some people hate Islam but what is the point of trying to rewrite history?

I was talking about the science, philosophy, history, arts etc. in general that Greek intellectuals brought with them to Italy after the fall of the Empire. This had happened after Third Crusade and the sacking of Constantinople as well.

My original point was that ERE preserved ancient Greek and Roman knowledge as well (not just Muslims).

 

[Prutfis]

The period of Islamic enlightenment was turbulent to say the least. One Caliph would be a great patron of the arts and science, he would die, then the next would be hostile. Eventually the good Caliphs were weeded out, and Islam has been very far behind the west ever since.



Yes, yes it is.



Yes. But to pretend as if it has always been that way, in all times and places would be wrong.

 

[RIPWarrior]

Progress will keep funneling that shit in and spreading it. Terrorism and the drastically different and oppressive culture should be enough to make a sane person realize they shouldn't be letting in all these people.

 

[Fronk]

I was talking about the science, philosophy, history, arts etc. in general that Greek intellectuals brought with them to Italy after the fall of the Empire. This had happened after Third Crusade and the sacking of Constantinople as well.

My original point was that ERE preserved ancient Greek and Roman knowledge as well (not just Muslims).

That's fair and I agree. But the rediscovery of Aristotle's work shouldn't be underestimated. It laid the foundation for the revival of intellectual thought based on logic and reasoning in Europe. Thomas Aquinas, Scholasticism etc.

It's not really hard to understand why a continent spanning empire were bigger patrons of arts and sciences than the fiefdoms in Europe. The rulers in Europe had lesser need for educated bureaucrats who could dedicate themselves to intellectual work and no economic power to fund bigger projects.

 

[tonni]

I mean and i a guy who thinks women having male friends= clear no go. Any sane man knows that male friends= trouble. but a good woman knows that and would only have female friends.