Question for Christian people!

[PainIsLIfe]

Smarter is a relative term. Am I smarter in my current state than Darwin was in 1860? I would say yes because we now know things that they didn't know back then on a scientific level

Lets not forget Darwin wrote extensively about how science and "the fixed laws of nature" caused him to experience disbelief and that is exactly what happens to people who allow science and reason to shape their beliefs or lack thereof.

Also I challenge your use of the term "smarter". Smart people can purposefully suspend intelligence and reason in order to have faith. I get it, faith is an extremely strong feeling because you a person desperately wants something to be true. That doesn't mean it is true not to mention science has never once came to the conclusion that, "god did it"

Yeah, I removed Darwin because he said if pressed he'd label himself as agnostic.

Francis Collins has all of today's scientific discoveries at his disposal and has decided that he believes in God. And I think most WR posters would agree that he's smarter than you or I.

 

[zebby23]

Yeah, I removed Darwin because he said if pressed he'd label himself as agnostic.

Francis Collins has all of today's scientific discoveries at his disposal and has decided that he believes in God. And I think most WR posters would agree that he's smarter than you or I.

Like I said... Some people can seem to suspend common sense or intelligence when they need or want to.

Francis Collins considers himself a christian but at the same time does not believe the earth is 6000 years old or in intelligent design. I can respect that maybe he is a type of deist I don't know.

I can certainly turn the argument around and say that the vast majority of scientists do not believe in god and even less call themselves christians.

I tend to not really care about what other people believe as most people have biases that affect how they may or may not believe. I was raised a christian and only when I became an adult and that religion made no sense did I become an atheist. I have lived as a perfectly moral atheist for 15 years now and my life could not be more fulfilled. I have realized I do not need a god in my life. Also how does a christian answer the question, Which god are we even talking about?

 

[ShadBo]

Ok, lets start there.

Millions of people a lot smarter than either of us believed it was true - do you believe that you're smarter than they are?

Bacon, Newton, Francis Collins?

Ideas stand and fall on their own merit. It doesn't matter who or how many people believe something.

Of the four people you listed, would you say they are best known for their contributions to religion or science?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Like I said... Some people can seem to suspend common sense or intelligence when they need or want to.

Francis Collins considers himself a christian but at the same time does not believe the earth is 6000 years old or in intelligent design. I can respect that maybe he is a type of deist I don't know.

I can certainly turn the argument around and say that the vast majority of scientists do not believe in god and even less call themselves christians.

I tend to not really care about what other people believe as most people have biases that affect how they may or may not believe. I was raised a christian and only when I became an adult and that religion made no sense did I become an atheist. I have lived as a perfectly moral atheist for 15 years now and my life could not be more fulfilled. I have realized I do not need a god in my life. Also how does a christian answer the question, Which god are we even talking about?

I can respect what you're saying and how you feel, but guys like CIB are simply trash. If you don't believe then you don't believe and nothing is going to change that, but why would you purposely try to take someone's faith from them? It effects you in no way. And the guy has still never told us what is militant atheism is all about.

Well a Christian is going to tell you that it's the God of Abraham.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Ideas stand and fall on their own merit. It doesn't matter who or how many people believe something.

Of the four people you listed, would you say they are best known for their contributions to religion or science?

Science, but you miss my point.

If intelligent people have concluded that there is reason to believe then how can you claim out of hand that there isn't reason to believe?

 

[zebby23]

I can respect what you're saying and how you feel, but guys like CIB are simply trash. If you don't believe then you don't believe and nothing is going to change that, but why would you purposely try to take someone's faith from them? It effects you in no way. And the guy has still never told us what is militant atheism is all about.

Well a Christian is going to tell you that it's the God of Abraham.

But it does affect me and my children. I live in the most conservative town in the state of Illinois and my 9 year old daughter (who is not a believer) cannot dare tell people that her dad is an atheist out of fear she will be outcast (from the group that teaches inclusion for everyone).

Religion also does not believe in things like stem cell research which could cure a disease that I may get in the future.

Religion promotes tribalism and keeps people who are not like minded out as per my example above. Look at many of the worlds wars, they are a direct result of religion.

Religion keeps people from believing things that are absolute fact such as evolution. How can we have a serious discussion when a religious person can dismiss facts to easily?

So religion does affect me.

 

[ShadBo]

Science, but you miss my point.

If intelligent people have concluded that there is reason to believe then how can you claim out of hand that there isn't reason to believe?

Intelligent people can believe things for bad reasons just the same a less intelligent people.

What people believe is less important than why they believe it.

Have you ever heard the reason Francis Collins believes?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

But it does affect me and my children. I live in the most conservative town in the state of Illinois and my 9 year old daughter (who is not a believer) cannot dare tell people that her dad is an atheist out of fear she will be outcast (from the group that teaches inclusion for everyone).

Religion also does not believe in things like stem cell research which could cure a disease that I may get in the future.

Religion promotes tribalism and keeps people who are not like minded out as per my example above. Look at many of the worlds wars, they are a direct result of religion.

Religion keeps people from believing things that are absolute fact such as evolution. How can we have a serious discussion when a religious person can dismiss facts to easily?

So religion does affect me.

Umm, I'm gonna call bs on your daughter is scared she'll be ostracized. And isn't it the left that teaches inclusion for everyone??? You're getting really far afield now.

Collins (a Christian) headed the Gnome project. What do you think they've been doing with that work?

Nearly every war is about something other than religion, although many times religion has been used as a tool to whip up the masses. You'd have to be incredibly naive to not know that.

Let's assume that I don't accept evolution. How does that in any way effect our discussion? You're reaching and you're failing miserably.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Intelligent people can believe things for bad reasons just the same a less intelligent people.

What people believe is less important than why they believe it.

Have you ever heard the reason Francis Collins believes?

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. - Collins

 

[zebby23]

Umm, I'm gonna call bs on your daughter is scared she'll be ostracized. And isn't it the left that teaches inclusion for everyone??? You're getting really far afield now.

Collins (a Christian) headed the Gnome project. What do you think they've been doing with that work?

Nearly every war is about something other than religion, although many times religion has been used as a tool to whip up the masses. You'd have to be incredibly naive to not know that.

Let's assume that I don't accept evolution. How does that in any way effect our discussion? You're reaching and you're failing miserably.

Yes the left DOES teach inclusion for everyone in reality. Religious folk like to preach inclusion but are the first people to turn someone away for looking or believing different. Christians are the epitome of hypocrites.

Also, call bs on whatever you like, you are wrong.

As far as your comment on not accepting evolution. If you do not then why am i to believe anything you say? You refuse to accept something that scientists accept as a FACT, yet people refuse to accept it because a book written 10,000 years ago tells them otherwise.

For a while there I thought you were interested in an actual discussion but you managed to throw 2 insults into your last post so any further discussion will involve me treating you like a person who believes in jack and the beanstalk beans. In other words I will speak slowly and ridicule you for insanely childish beliefs that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside but have no merit in real life and that have almost been completely debunked by science

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Yes the left DOES teach inclusion for everyone in reality. Religious folk like to preach inclusion but are the first people to turn someone away for looking or believing different. Christians are the epitome of hypocrites.

Also, call bs on whatever you like, you are wrong.

As far as your comment on not accepting evolution. If you do not then why am i to believe anything you say? You refuse to accept something that scientists accept as a FACT, yet people refuse to accept it because a book written 10,000 years ago tells them otherwise.

For a while there I thought you were interested in an actual discussion but you managed to throw 2 insults into your last post so any further discussion will involve me treating you like a person who believes in jack and the beanstalk beans. In other words I will speak slowly and ridicule you for insanely childish beliefs that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside but have no merit in real life and that have almost been completely debunked by science

Yes, yes; the left believes in inclusion so long as you share the same ideas as them otherwise you're a racist, bigot, knuckle-dragger.

I see Christians going to feed the starving in countries all over the world, providing relief aid to Muslim countries, etc. But please continue to tell me how they're the true bigots and ostracize everyone.


Oh, so you have no argument for how a persons acceptance of evolution would effect our discussion. Must be more of that inclusiveness you've learned. lol I actually didn't say that I did or didn't accept evolution, but it's telling that you would find anything I say unbelievable if I didn't.

An honest discussion would include real reasons that you hate religion, not made up bs that your daughter is going to be ostracized by the kids at school if she tells them daddy is an atheist.

 

[zebby23]

Yes, yes; the left believes in inclusion so long as you share the same ideas as them otherwise you're a racist, bigot, knuckle-dragger.

I see Christians going to feed the starving in countries all over the world, providing relief aid to Muslim countries, etc. But please continue to tell me how they're the true bigots and ostracize everyone.


Oh, so you have no argument for how a persons acceptance of evolution would effect our discussion. Must be more of that inclusiveness you've learned. lol I actually didn't say that I did or didn't accept evolution, but it's telling that you would find anything I say unbelievable if I didn't.

An honest discussion would include real reasons that you hate religion, not made up bs that your daughter is going to be ostracized by the kids at school if she tells them daddy is an atheist.

Bill Gates (an atheist) is also feeding poor people are eradicating diseases. Philanthropy is not exclusive to christians you joke... Also, about that gay wedding cake and how about that disgusting lady who refused to marry a gay couple because of the fairytale of religion. Christians are bigots, they hate gays, trans, bi, immigrants and anyone else who doesn't look like or believe like them.

Anyone who dismisses evolution as fake should be ostracized and ridiculed. Point me to the thread where christians talk about how gravity is false because science knows more about evolution than they do gravity (but you won't believe this) Maybe you should not believe the doctor when you go get your shots or pick up your antibiotics. Maybe you should just pray lol

Like I said, I live in the most conservative city in Illinois. (Also one of the most affluent but enough about my sizable bank account) and if my daughter told her friends parents that she did not believe in a fake ass god she would be outcast and SOME people would likely not want her around. THAT is religion.

Sorry these are facts and I know they are tough to deal with for someone like you but facts they remain.

Remember. An apple is an apple no matter how many times people like you call it a banana.

 

[ShadBo]

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. - Collins

'I was hiking in the Cascade Mountains on a beautiful fall afternoon. I turned the corner and saw in front of me this frozen waterfall, a couple of hundred feet high. Actually, a waterfall that had three parts to it — also the symbolic three in one. At that moment, I felt my resistance leave me. And it was a great sense of relief. The next morning, in the dewy grass in the shadow of the Cascades, I fell on my knees and accepted this truth — that God is God, that Christ is his son and that I am giving my life to that belief.'

A fucking waterfall.

CS Lewis presents arguments that are difficult to unpack and address - intentionally, in my opinion - but they are hardly rational. He tries to shoehorn god into the cosmological argument where god is part of none of the premise nor the conclusion. He does not argue the reason he believes because he concedes that it is not based on reason at all.

Edit: I made an error in this post. I fucked up CS Lewis with William Lane Craig. So many apologists, so little room inside my head.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Bill Gates (an atheist) is also feeding poor people are eradicating diseases. Philanthropy is not exclusive to christians you joke... Also, about that gay wedding cake and how about that disgusting lady who refused to marry a gay couple because of the fairytale of religion. Christians are bigots, they hate gays, trans, bi, immigrants and anyone else who doesn't look like or believe like them.

Did I say atheist didn't help the poor?

Sure some Christians are bigotted, just like the left that shuts down any conversations about protecting the 2nd or advocating attacks on "fascist" because they can't have people with other ideas spreading their message., etc.

And FTR, there are many denominations that are very accepting of gays. The more you spew the more you show what you don't know.

Anyone who dismisses evolution as fake should be ostracized and ridiculed. Point me to the thread where christians talk about how gravity is false because science knows more about evolution than they do gravity (but you won't believe this) Maybe you should not believe the doctor when you go get your shots or pick up your antibiotics. Maybe you should just pray lol

I'm sure you had a point in that rant, but I have no idea what it is or what thread you are talking about.

If Joe Blow doesn't believe in evolution it doesn't affect a thing about your life. In fact, it probably gives your daughter a better chance at getting into a decent college. And based on your posting, I'll assume that she can use all the help she can get.

Like I said, I live in the most conservative city in Illinois. (Also one of the most affluent but enough about my sizable bank account) and if my daughter told her friends parents that she did not believe in a fake ass god she would be outcast and SOME people would likely not want her around. THAT is religion.

What Wheaton? Doesn't really matter, wherever you live you have more other religions than I grew up with. I grew up in the Bible Belt and I knew atheists. None of them were ever ostracized. You really need to come off of your persecution complex. No one is believing that shit happening in Ill.

Sorry these are facts and I know they are tough to deal with for someone like you but facts they remain.

Remember. An apple is an apple no matter how many times people like you call it a banana.

Hey, I like apples and bananas, but I like Oranges better than bananas.

 

[CauseImbetta]

When all you have to hold on to is your faith, you tend to hold on tightly. That doesn't make your faith any less true.


Nice dodge of your own inadequacies.

So why don't you tell us what you really have against religion. Every so often you make a thread denouncing it; you bragged once about a gang of people forcing a street minister off of your campus, etc. Why don't you just tell us what you really have against religion and we can talk about that.

Where to begin? It makes great claims without a shred of evidence. All the different religions compete with eachother, all with their various mythologies. Clearly a very man-made delusion. Nonsense and contradiction in holy texts vs science and progress.

Morality changed over time and is also man made. We no longer have slave or stone women.

To choose blind faith over reason is a sad state of affairs. From burning people at the stake to Holy wars, we are better off without it. Instead giving people a proper education and start building the technology we need for our ever growing population.

Religion fails on every front except maybe giving an individual a crutch not to fear death. Turning off reason and seeking miracles instead of fixing problems head on are much easier. That is a detrement to humanity.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Where to begin? It makes great claims without a shred of evidence. All the different religions compete with eachother, all with their various mythologies. Clearly a very man-made delusion. Nonsense and contradiction in holy texts vs science and progress.

Morality changed over time and is also man made. We no longer have slave or stone women.

To choose blind faith over reason is a sad state of affairs. From burning people at the stake to Holy wars, we are better off without it. Instead giving people a proper education and start building the technology we need for our ever growing population.

Religion fails on every front except maybe giving an individual a crutch not to fear death. Turning off reason and seeking miracles instead of fixing problems head on are much easier. That is a detrement to humanity.

Seen a lot of stake-burnings and holy wars lately have ya? Uhhm..

Religion has given a great number of people more than a crutch. Addicts have overcome their addictions; peoples hearts have been changed; it's given purpose to people's lives; etc.

But hey you know more than the rest of humanity with all your internet knowledge. lol

 

[mcveteran81]

The rest of your post is horse shit.

^ is what an intellectual coward looks like.

@InternetHero good job on making TS shit the bed in his own thread.

@Lead can you please dump this pile of *horse shit* thread.

 

[CauseImbetta]

Seen a lot of stake-burnings and holy wars lately have ya? Uhhm..

Religion has given a great number of people more than a crutch. Addicts have overcome their addictions; peoples hearts have been changed; it's given purpose to people's lives; etc.

But hey you know more than the rest of humanity with all your internet knowledge. lol

No more burning and stoning in the west because we cast Christianity asside. Separation between church and state. Look at other troubled areas in the world that still have theocracy or no separation from religion. Everyone want to live in stable atheist countries. Not the other way around.

There are no athiest in prisons across the States. That should tell you something.

 

[Squarechoke]

What Wheaton? Doesn't really matter, wherever you live you have more other religions than I grew up with. I grew up in the Bible Belt and I knew atheists. None of them were ever ostracized. You really need to come off of your persecution complex. No one is believing that shit happening in Ill.

You have to admit that it sounds a bit funny if you're saying that the idea that there are some people in Illinois that shun atheists is more unbelievable than what's in the Bible, or in another random religious holy text.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

No more burning and stoning in the west because we cast Christianity asside. Separation between church and state. Look at other troubled areas in the world that still have theocracy or no separation from religion. Everyone want to live in stable atheist countries. Not the other way around.

There are no athiest in prisons across the States. That should tell you something.

I'm thinking of the last few "atheist" countries - the old soviet system or khmer Rouge - which would you prefer to live in?

So all these people that were flocking to a country that was 90% christian was because they were seeking an atheistic utopia? You should write a book about that. Lol