Question about NCAA.

[PolishHeadlock]

One thing about Davis, Notre Dame's website has him listed as a 2x high school national champ but Im pretty certain he didn't win at Fargo or NHSCA Seniors.

Prior to NDC: A 2012 graduate of Sante Fe High School…California State champion at 160 pounds senior year..California State champions at 152 pounds junior year…two time national champion and high school All-American.

http://www.notredamefalcons.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5415

Any thoughts?

Looks like it was Flonationals and he beat Ian Miller his Junior year (also won as a senior).

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/8354

Some impressive names in that article, definitely a legit claim at National Champ in HS imo

 

[PolishHeadlock]

Even with the “work arounds” which are nowhere as severe as some would have you believe.. it’s still an Ivy League academic workload with the full time job of being a DI wrestler trying to win an NCAA title against someone from Iowa, tOSU, PSU etc. Additionally none of the people I know or people who I know there major are taking any “fluff” majors. It’s almost always premed, business, accounting, engineering, chem etc.

Actually what’s very interesting is Robb Koll the coach at Cornell who has made them a top 10 sometimes top 5 team, likes those extra academic requirements and workload and maturity required to make as a DI wrestler at an Ivy League School even with “help”. He calls it the filter theory, because it filters out the kids that should be going to Notre Dame Ohio even if their talent is DI or the Chance Marstellars or Chris Philips before they even become an issue

Another somewhat related point that I’ve been thinking about, since my former coaches just got their first pac-12 champ at Cal-Poly is that until Fresno State re-started their program. The only DI programs left in California were Stanford and Cal Poly which have enormous academic workloads and are hard for non football/basketball athletes to gain acceptance into a good chunk of the programs. So a lot of California studs were stuck in a bind because even if they had solid grades (3.0, 3.2, 3.5 etc) and were/are good kids that wasn’t near up to task for Stanford or Cal Poly. So it was either go lower division or go faaaaarr away from home IF they got an offer. With Fresno State being brought back a lot more Cali kids will have an opportunity

I don't know how many (if any) kids take advantage of this but Cornell's agriculture school is part of the SUNY so it's admissions requirements are at SUNY level and not at the level of Cornell's other schools. So theoretically you could get into the School of Agriculture and as long as you're grades are strong in the first year you could transfer into another Cornell school.

 

[jack36767]

I don't know how many (if any) kids take advantage of this but Cornell's agriculture school is part of the SUNY so it's admissions requirements are at SUNY level and not at the level of Cornell's other schools. So theoretically you could get into the School of Agriculture and as long as you're grades are strong in the first year you could transfer into another Cornell school.

I’m aware but the academic workload once you are in is still higher than most “regular” schools. From everything I’ve been seen and told, the ag school is the way Koll gets kids in who have a 3.9 instead of a 4.0

 

[dsdoubled]

there are a ridiculous amount of tournaments for HS, MS, and ES that are called national events....

True, I hear you on that. But, a wrestler of Joey's caliber is unlikely to participate in the less prestigious tournaments. For HS aged kids in America that are as good as Joey, as far as I know there are only a few tournaments that are considered National Championships:
-Fargo/USA Wrestling Cadet Nationals in FS and Greco
-Fargo/USA Wrestling Junior National in FS and greco
-NHSCA Senior Nationals
-Prep Nationals
-UWW Cadet Nationals in FS and Greco
-UWW Junior Nationals in FS and Greco
-UWW Cadet World Team Trials in FS and Greco
-UWW Junior World Team Trials in FS and Greco
Im not too familiar with the details of tournaments like Ironman, PowerAde, Beast of the East, etc.
Does anyone know which one Joey won?

 

[dsdoubled]

Looks like it was Flonationals and he beat Ian Miller his Junior year (also won as a senior).

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/8354

Some impressive names in that article, definitely a legit claim at National Champ in HS imo

FLO Nationals!!!! Totally forgot about that one. Great great find my man!

 

[Grrrr]

True, I hear you on that. But, a wrestler of Joey's caliber is unlikely to participate in the less prestigious tournaments. For HS aged kids in America that are as good as Joey, as far as I know there are only a few tournaments that are considered National Championships:
-Fargo/USA Wrestling Cadet Nationals in FS and Greco
-Fargo/USA Wrestling Junior National in FS and greco
-NHSCA Senior Nationals
-Prep Nationals
-UWW Cadet Nationals in FS and Greco
-UWW Junior Nationals in FS and Greco
-UWW Cadet World Team Trials in FS and Greco
-UWW Junior World Team Trials in FS and Greco
Im not too familiar with the details of tournaments like Ironman, PowerAde, Beast of the East, etc.
Does anyone know which one Joey won?

^ beat me to it

 

[jr jr]

Was there a d1 runner up last year from Duke who was a non scholorship guy?

 

[tec87]

True. I know Mocco wrestled some at OK State but he might not have wrestled that year I can't remember the details.

Mocco’s wrestling eligibility was done when he played football one season at OK State. I believe it was some screwy thing because of the regular and Olympic redshirts that he had 6 yrs of college eligibility. 5yrs was used on wrestling via having an Olympic redshirt in 04 and because he didn’t use his regular redshirt, he had the extra year for football.

 

[jack36767]

Was there a d1 runner up last year from Duke who was a non scholorship guy?

They had an AA, at Heavyweight. Duke actually has no athletic scholarships for wrestling. Coach L is massively overachieving and has kept the program alive he doesn’t get enough credit

 

[nateallan]

I'm still laughing at the guy claiming to have no wrestling experience throwing around plenty of D-1 wrestlers. I also have no experience and throw around Kyle Snyder and Gwiz on a regular basis.

 

[tec87]

I'm still laughing at the guy claiming to have no wrestling experience throwing around plenty of D-1 wrestlers. I also have no experience and throw around Kyle Snyder and Gwiz on a regular basis.

To be fair, we don’t know where those D-1 wrestlers competed at, nor how long they competed D-1. There are plenty of people who were just state qualifiers that walk on at D-1 programs and compete a year and quit. Those people could always claim to have wrestled D-1. I’m not saying his claims aren’t BS just that D-1 isn’t always HS State Champs.

 

[dsdoubled]

To be fair, we don’t know where those D-1 wrestlers competed at, nor how long they competed D-1. There are plenty of people who were just state qualifiers that walk on at D-1 programs and compete a year and quit. Those people could always claim to have wrestled D-1. I’m not saying his claims aren’t BS just that D-1 isn’t always HS State Champs.

There was also that kid from Iowa back in the days of Jimmy Zaleski (when they made the ESPN documentary), he was a multiple time Iowa state champ and just horrible in DI.

 

[Kenny from MD]

That's cool, cause Im still laughing at you comparing a 1-15 150lber to Kyle Snyder and letting the point I was making fly so far over your head. I'll spare you the results of judo tournaments I've competed in with no judo background for fear that you might die from laughter.

Edit: Lest some of the simpler posters get (more) confused, again, I want to reiterate that my stand up is NOT good and I am not boasting about my ability to take others down, but rather, that wrestling D1 does not automatically mean you're good (at a reasonable standard) and certainly doesn't mean that it makes you invulnerable to takedowns from grapplers who make a concerted effort to learn takedowns.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

That's cool, cause Im still laughing at you comparing a 1-15 150lber to Kyle Snyder and letting the point I was making fly so far over your head. I'll spare you the results of judo tournaments I've competed in with no judo background for fear that you might die from laughter.

Edit: Lest some of the simpler posters get (more) confused, again, I want to reiterate that my stand up is NOT good and I am not boasting about my ability to take others down, but rather, that wrestling D1 does not automatically mean you're good (at a reasonable standard) and certainly doesn't mean that it makes you invulnerable to takedowns from grapplers who make a concerted effort to learn takedowns.

The thing is there are only about 75 Division 1 programs in the US with team sizes capped at 30 individuals for a max of 2,250 participants. Now many schools don't carry the max roster so it's actually lower than that.

HS participation is around 250,000-260,000 kids a year and you're dwindling that down to slightly over 2,000 participants.

That is a pretty dense talent pool so even the backups for the most part are pretty good. You have state place winners and champs that are backups or don't even make the team. You also have late bloomers like Pat Cummins who never even qualified for states in PA who went on to be an NCAA finalist in these rooms.

And these practice rooms are a fucking grind. 2-3 trainings sessions a day on top of school work and making weight. If you are getting shit on every time there is a live go it's mentally hard to not just give up.

Now there are and have been programs that are dying or just starting who have some "scrubs" on their team. Also wrestling is something that you lose it if you don't use it (not sure if the guy you wrestled was still practicing in a D1 room or was a few years removed).

So I'm not going to doubt your claim but you need to realize that when you make a statement like that anyone who's spent a full season or more in a D1 room is going to look at you a bit sideways.

Maybe the guy tried out for a team and got cut

Maybe he was a scrub who managed survive despite getting thrashed daily

Maybe he was few years removed and no longer a "D1 wrestler"

Or maybe your better than you give yourself credit for

But saying you tossed around a D1 kid followed with "and I'm NOT good at takedowns" is going to raise eyebrows and comes off as a humble brag.

 

[dsdoubled]

That's cool, cause Im still laughing at you comparing a 1-15 150lber to Kyle Snyder and letting the point I was making fly so far over your head. I'll spare you the results of judo tournaments I've competed in with no judo background for fear that you might die from laughter.

Edit: Lest some of the simpler posters get (more) confused, again, I want to reiterate that my stand up is NOT good and I am not boasting about my ability to take others down, but rather, that wrestling D1 does not automatically mean you're good (at a reasonable standard) and certainly doesn't mean that it makes you invulnerable to takedowns from grapplers who make a concerted effort to learn takedowns.

Well, I think its kinda crazy to say that you can toss around DI wrestlers and win judo tournaments and then say youre not good at stand up wrestling. I believe you and I don't think its even particularly far fetched. There are many examples of combat athletes with little to no wrestling background having various levels of success against wrestlers. Especially if said combat athlete is a grappler and going against the wrestler in a less restrictive rule set than wrestling. Ricardo Arona was one of the best wrestlers in MMA back in the day and had no Olympic style wrestling experience that I am aware of. JZ Cavalcante showed up at the Dave Shultz international and a few other big tournaments years ago and did reasonably well against DI champs and world medalists. Mayhem Miller showed up at the freestyle US Open and a few other big tourneys back in the mid 2000s and won a match or 2. Rolles, Gregor, and igor gracie wrestled in a bunch of world level freestyle tournaments back in 2014-2016 and won some matches. If you are big, or strong, or have combat experience that carries over, or even if you just have really great grappling instincts, you can do well in most grappling arts.

 

[dsdoubled]

The thing is there are only about 75 Division 1 programs in the US with team sizes capped at 30 individuals for a max of 2,250 participants. Now many schools don't carry the max roster so it's actually lower than that.

HS participation is around 250,000-260,000 kids a year and you're dwindling that down to slightly over 2,000 participants.

That is a pretty dense talent pool so even the backups for the most part are pretty good. You have state place winners and champs that are backups or don't even make the team. You also have late bloomers like Pat Cummins who never even qualified for states in PA who went on to be an NCAA finalist in these rooms.

And these practice rooms are a fucking grind. 2-3 trainings sessions a day on top of school work and making weight. If you are getting shit on every time there is a live go it's mentally hard to not just give up.

Now there are and have been programs that are dying or just starting who have some "scrubs" on their team. Also wrestling is something that you lose it if you don't use it (not sure if the guy you wrestled was still practicing in a D1 room or was a few years removed).

So I'm not going to doubt your claim but you need to realize that when you make a statement like that anyone who's spent a full season or more in a D1 room is going to look at you a bit sideways.

Maybe the guy tried out for a team and got cut

Maybe he was a scrub who managed survive despite getting thrashed daily

Maybe he was few years removed and no longer a "D1 wrestler"

Or maybe your better than you give yourself credit for

But saying you tossed around a D1 kid followed with "and I'm NOT good at takedowns" is going to raise eyebrows and comes off as a humble brag.

Also, maybe the guys he tossed around lied about being DI wrestlers. Bottom line, its next to impossible to be a DI wrestler and suck. Hell, the overwhelming majority of College wrestlers are good, regardless of division. NAIA has produced Olympic champions, world level studs, Hodge Trophy winners, etc. Jamil Kelly and DC started in JUCO and won world/Olympic medals. Demetrious Johnson wrestled not even 1 whole season of JUCO and look at the guy. I know you are aware of this Im just making a point for other readers.

 

[jack36767]

The thing is there are only about 75 Division 1 programs in the US with team sizes capped at 30 individuals for a max of 2,250 participants. Now many schools don't carry the max roster so it's actually lower than that.

HS participation is around 250,000-260,000 kids a year and you're dwindling that down to slightly over 2,000 participants.

That is a pretty dense talent pool so even the backups for the most part are pretty good. You have state place winners and champs that are backups or don't even make the team. You also have late bloomers like Pat Cummins who never even qualified for states in PA who went on to be an NCAA finalist in these rooms.

And these practice rooms are a fucking grind. 2-3 trainings sessions a day on top of school work and making weight. If you are getting shit on every time there is a live go it's mentally hard to not just give up.

Now there are and have been programs that are dying or just starting who have some "scrubs" on their team. Also wrestling is something that you lose it if you don't use it (not sure if the guy you wrestled was still practicing in a D1 room or was a few years removed).

So I'm not going to doubt your claim but you need to realize that when you make a statement like that anyone who's spent a full season or more in a D1 room is going to look at you a bit sideways.

Maybe the guy tried out for a team and got cut

Maybe he was a scrub who managed survive despite getting thrashed daily

Maybe he was few years removed and no longer a "D1 wrestler"

Or maybe your better than you give yourself credit for

But saying you tossed around a D1 kid followed with "and I'm NOT good at takedowns" is going to raise eyebrows and comes off as a humble brag.

Well done, perfect summary

 

[Dirty Holt]

The thing is there are only about 75 Division 1 programs in the US with team sizes capped at 30 individuals for a max of 2,250 participants. Now many schools don't carry the max roster so it's actually lower than that.

Not to nitpick, but there are no roster caps in wrestling, only scholarship caps. I would guess you are in the ballpark though. Probably around 2500. There are many guys who dont get put on the roster either.

Outside of some rare Rudy type situation, there arent bad wrestlers on D1 teams. Coaches wont waste mat space. Comparing a D1 guy who is a back up who isnt winning matches to a random BJJ guy in takedowns is laughable. You take the 3rd string 141 at a bottom 50 team and he is gonna take down 90% of all blackbelts. Are these guys gods of wrestling, no, but coming at it like "not all D1 wrestlers are the same" isnt the same as it is in BJJ.

The only thing I would concede, is if said D1 wrestlers graduated in the late 80's and are now in their 50's.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

Not to nitpick, but there are no roster caps in wrestling, only scholarship caps. I would guess you are in the ballpark though. Probably around 2500. There are many guys who dont get put on the roster either.

Outside of some rare Rudy type situation, there arent bad wrestlers on D1 teams. Coaches wont waste mat space. Comparing a D1 guy who is a back up who isnt winning matches to a random BJJ guy in takedowns is laughable. You take the 3rd string 141 at a bottom 50 team and he is gonna take down 90% of all blackbelts. Are these guys gods of wrestling, no, but coming at it like "not all D1 wrestlers are the same" isnt the same as it is in BJJ.

The only thing I would concede, is if said D1 wrestlers graduated in the late 80's and are now in their 50's.

When I was in College we had a cap at 30 wrestlers but that may have been specific to Drexel and I assumed it was an NCAA cap.

 

[Kenny from MD]

It is not even worth saying anything on the internet anymore, because you nerds will argue about anything and everything and propose the most insane amount of conditions and what ifs. Maybe I should just post their social security numbers and photographs of their grandmothers every time I am able to throw a black belt or take down a wrestler so you can verify their identity and get to the bottom of this. No wonder no one good posts here anymore.